Andrew Bolt - Dark Side of Justice. Tell me you disagree

[theGimp]

calm down fellas

calm blue ocean
calm blue ocean...aaaahhhh.

But it's important not to sensationalise cases like this too much (hey Andrew...)

I hear you, and Im typically not a fan. Bloody good at his job though.

Edit: btw, thanks for the further reading TheGimp, always important to closely examine methodologies

Cheers Lance. Couldnt agree more.

 

[Bodicifer]

calm down fellas, I'm not talking specifics of this case, but more generally.

When I first read this I was horrified as well.

I still am to be honest, but at least I have an appreciation of (some) of the facts. It's a tough one. My gut feel is there should be severe punishment, but if it's a incredibly remorseful first offender, then the only thing jail will do is harden him the **** up.

In many cases, jail is nothing more than college for small time crims to graduate into hardened tumours in society. But that's not to say it's never appropriate, by any means, and it may well be in this case. But it's important not to sensationalise cases like this too much (hey Andrew...)

I'm not saying the law gets it right every time, but I do get sick and tired of people who, without any of the facts, are happy to sit in judgement as though they have as much moral authority as a magistrate/judge, when they patently do not.

Edit: btw, thanks for the further reading TheGimp, always important to closely examine methodologies

I hear what you are saying but I also think that he must be punished for his crime. It's a disgusting crime as you said and the FACT is that he digitally raped a four year old girl. That's it, that's the fact. He pleaded guilty to digitally raping a 4 year old girl. Hopefully he never does it again, but there are repeat offenders out there and I put public protection in front of letting the prick off because he plead guilty. A stint in jail where he may become the victim might make sure he doesn't ever think about doing it again. It's a bloody tough call, the line between locking someone up and giving them a chance but I just reckon that digitally raping a 4 year old girl is punishable by jail, first offence or not. Most murderers are first time offenders.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

It's a bloody tough call, the line between locking someone up and giving them a chance but I just reckon that digitally raping a 4 year old girl is punishable by jail, first offence or not. Most murderers are first time offenders.

I pretty much agree with that.

However it is indeed a bloody tough call; one I'm glad I didn't have to make, and one I'm sure Judge Geraghty didn't make lightly.

I also don't believe race had a lot to do with it; it was more the remorse and guilty plea

 

[fryingpan]

I also don't believe race had a lot to do with it

lol.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

lol.

nicely articulated...

pan, are you srsly trying to tell me that you think if the offence was exactly the same, and a white boy drunkenly did this - but was incredibly remorseful, and pleaded guilty when the police had admitted there wasn't enough evidence to convict had he not done so, that the Judge would have found differently?

C'mon cmate, look past the lurid tabloid spin for a moment...

It's not only Aboriginals who escape jail because their crimes were not pre-meditated and there's a good chance of rehabilitation.

At least the Aboriginal guy expressed remorse....

FOUR men who savagely bashed and racially abused a Sudanese teenager laughed and joked as they walked free from court today.

Shane Psaila, 19, Chris Carlin, 21, Andrew Hoskins, 21, and James Butler, 19, escaped jail after Judge Phillip Coish said they all had good prospects of rehabilitation.

Judge Coish said the four were drunk and affected by cannabis when they set upon 17-year-old Ajang Gor, calling him a "black dog" and other racist insults.

Mr Gor was punched and had a bottle smashed over his head and as he lay unconscious and bleeding in the roadway Hoskins stole his mobile phone

more...

 

[fryingpan]

nicely articulated...

pan, are you srsly trying to tell me that you think if the offence was exactly the same, and a white boy drunkenly did this - but was incredibly remorseful, and pleaded guilty when the police had admitted there wasn't enough evidence to convict had he not done so, that the Judge would have found differently?

I think there's a very strong chance that would happen yes.

It's not only Aboriginals who escape jail because their crimes were not pre-meditated and there's a good chance of rehabilitation.

I know that.

At least the Aboriginal guy expressed remorse....

That doesn't make it better. He'll just do it again & again, express "remorse" again & again and walk free every time.

People kill other people on the road and express remorse but get jailed. An Aboriginal murders, rapes, you name it, expresses remorse and gets set free.

I know you are a huge Aboriginal supporter but this is a disgrace.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

I think there's a very strong chance that would happen yes.

give me one piece of proof, just one, that his race affected the decision. Just one will do.

That doesn't make it better. He'll just do it again & again, express "remorse" again & again and walk free every time.

oh he will, will he? I had no idea you can predict the future That's a ****ed thing to say, and I reckon it pretty much disqualifies you from any credibility on this issue

Just quietly, I reckon the Judge is far more qualified than you or your hero Bolt to recognise genuine remorse when he sees it.

You and Bolt are just having a whinge and selecting facts that suit your own prejudices.

Just one piece of proof that race affected this pan. Just one...

 

[fryingpan]

give me one piece of proof, just one, that his race affected the decision. Just one will do.




oh he will, will he? I had no idea you can predict the future That's a ****ed thing to say, and I reckon it pretty much disqualifies you from any credibility on this issue

Just quietly, I reckon the Judge is far more qualified than you or your hero Bolt to recognise genuine remorse when he sees it.

You and Bolt are just having a whinge and selecting facts that suit your own prejudices.

Just one piece of proof that race affected this pan. Just one...

Lance, I think the fact that the judge thinks it's necessary to highlight the fact that they are in fact aboriginal and have had a "tough upbringing" is evidence enough that they get treated differently.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

maybe Andrew Bolt should take his own advice...

It’s time we got a grip
Andrew Bolt
Friday, October 12, 2007 at 06:14am

HAVE we gone mad? A few drunk Sudanese louts bash a policeman yesterday and we carry on as if we’ve never seen such savagery on our streets.

Never, bellow the talkback callers to an eager ear, until we let in these uncivilised Africans.

With all due respect, Mr Talkback Caller, you are an idiot. We’ve got thugs of all colours—white in particular—now punching police and anyone else they find, and the Sudanese aren’t the worst of them.

While you were on the phone panicking about a few Africans, 50 extra police were this very week deployed into the city to deal with the grim fact that scores more people are getting bashed in the heart of our state’s capital, and not by Africans. Panic about that, sir.

And panic, too, about two other scary things we haven’t been short of lately: drunks and underparented children. Both of which, I suspect, have contributed to an alarming rise in violence—and a crime rate in Victoria that’s worse these past few years than anything seen since 1934.

Take the half a dozen white beer-brains at a Mornington Peninsula caravan park, who an hour after the Sudanese scuffle were pushing around police sent to shush them, and had to be sobered up with pepper spray and a trip for three to the cells.

Or take the 13-year-old Berwick girl who a little earlier went at police with a knife after they arrested a 15-year-old boy who’d smashed her mum’s window.

Want more? How about the Maryborough couple the day before who screamed abuse at police and hit one with a rock, earning them a spray of pepper and a trip, too.

Hmm. Seems the Sudanese who belted the policeman have assimilated only too well in our increasingly boozy, brawling culture—an increasingly brutalising culture, which is our real problem.

We don’t know all the details of what happened in Noble Park early yesterday, when a Sri Lankan-born detective, ironically, told some raucous Sudanese to move on.

But some background: just a few hours before and only a few blocks away, Sudanese teenager Liep Gony, who was bashed to death (allegedly by whites, note), had been farewelled at an emotional funeral.

How recklessly had the emotions there been inflamed in the days before. There had been one lot of feel-goods screaming “racists” and another lot of fear-goods howling “misfits”.

If a few of Gony’s mates were left feeling aggro, I’m not surprised. Then stew the brains of a few in cans of the Great Australian Curse and you had trouble looking for an excuse.

That excuse came a couple of hours past midnight, when the detective and his female partner turned up.

But more context: The detective knew some of those youths well enough to think it safe to speak to them, even though local officers know Sudanese men come from a warlike culture and arc up more quickly than most when in a group.

The officer was king-hit and kicked by three or four of the drunks, but Assistant Commissioner Paul Evans says others tried to drag off the attackers.

What’s more, the Dandenong police station yesterday was rung by local Sudanese, saying how ashamed they were of the attack and asking if the injured officer was all right.

I wouldn’t be writing off that whole community on that evidence.

Yesterday’s bashing is serious, of course, even if the officer thankfully escaped with nothing worse than cracked teeth and a sore knee. And a few dozen Sudanese youths are indeed proving to be real trouble.

But want a comparison with what local-born hoods will do to a policeman in a similar situation?

In 2004, Aborigines in Sydney’s Redfern rioted over the accidental death of a teenager, the son of a jail-bird, pelting police with timber, rocks and molotov cocktails.

In 2005, up to 150 youths—many from largely Caucasian gangs—brawled with police for four straight nights in the welfare ghetto of Sydney’s Macquarie Fields after two car thieves died in a police chase.

Rioters at Palm Island burned down a police station. Hundreds of drunks at an Australia Day concert in Perth fought police and even punched ambulance officers. Protesters in Melbourne smashed up a police van. And Australia Day at our beaches is now notorious for drunks bashing whomever is at hand, including police.

No Sudanese involved in any of that, Mr Talkback Caller, or in the various murders of police officers. Ned Kelly wasn’t African, either.

It’s true the violence has lately got worse, but, again, it’s not Africans who are to blame. Gangs of all kinds have formed in our shabbier streets, filled by children from broken families, bad schools, soured cultures and homes toxic with welfare, listlessness, violence, drugs and drink.

Ah, the drink—so central to our lives that it’s now currency. A public speech is routinely paid for in bottles of wine. A sporting triumph earns you a bottle of champagne on the dais and a barrel back at the club.

“The stuff that’s caused all the pain is this bloody alcohol,” Evans rages.

But that’s not all, of course. The collapsed authority of our institutions and traditions has hurt still more.

See my graph of imprisonment rates in Victoria. It suggests to me that from the late 1960s we, indeed, thought society was more to blame than the criminal and got half-hearted in defending our laws and jailing those who broke them.

But as the rate of imprisonment plummeted, crime began to follow the divorce rate up and up.

I mustn’t paint things worse than they are. This isn’t Baghdad, and rising employment and tougher policing of the drugs trade have helped recently to cut overall crime rates in this state.

But crimes of violence are still rising: homicide, rape, kidnaps, assaults—all have jumped over the past five years. So has our rate of imprisonment, to the highest level since the Depression.

Again, let’s not forget we’re far better than our worst. We remain a decent and welcoming people, for one, as you could see from all the white faces at Liep Gony’s funeral.

But our gangs are a sign of a trouble that badly needs fixing—and the Sudanese themselves, whose crime rate is in fact below that of the rest of us, would surely agree.

Ask Ajang Gor, a young refugee bashed in Melton on Tuesday.

His attackers have since sent him text messages from his stolen phone, such as this: “Welcome 2 australia u jigaboo f---s”, which they signed, “the Melton blood gang”. I’d guess that’s a gang not of Sudanese but of “us”, and Gor is now as scared as any talkback caller about thugs on our dark streets.

We have work to do, folks. All of us.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...aldsun/comments/column_its_time_we_got_a_grip

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Lance, I think the fact that the judge thinks it's necessary to highlight the fact that they are in fact aboriginal and have had a "tough upbringing" is evidence enough that they get treated differently.

no it's not.

It's stating facts.

It doesn't matter what race you are, mitigating factors will be taken into account upon sentencing. Surely you know this?

 

[acker]

Appears to me that if we took Andrew Bolt's name off the header and off the article in the "OP" their would probably have been less differing opinions in this thread.

A lot of posts seem to be more anti Bolt than being in disagreement with the original poster.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Appears to me that if we took Andrew Bolt's name off the header and off the article in the "OP" their would probably have been less differing opinions in this thread.

A lot of posts seem to be more anti Bolt than being in disagreement with the original poster.

what are you talking about acker? That's a very odd comment.

This is the OP, minus any Bolt article

Wonderful article from Andrew Bolt - never a truer word spoken. I really hope people can see what he's saying and not drag out the racist label.

So exactly how do you disagree with the "original poster" without discussing Bolt or the article?

In any case, the article was written by Bolt. And it's just more of the same sensational, lurid bullshit that he goes on about all the time.

I don't believe race played much, if any part, in the deliberation of a professional judge, and I've made that point. However that was the assertion made by Bolt, and simply cut n pasted for the OP, so I really don't get where you're going with it.

Do you agree or disagree with the proposition that Aboriginals get off scot free from serious crimes based solely on the fact that they are Aboriginal?

 

[Daytripper]

Do you agree or disagree with the proposition that Aboriginals get off scot free from serious crimes based solely on the fact that they are Aboriginal?

Not 'scot-free', Lance.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22896877-601,00.html

THE Queensland opposition has called for an immediate inquiry into the sentencing procedure behind the gang-rape case of a 10-year-old girl whose nine attackers escaped jail time.

Nine males who pleaded guilty last month to gang-raping a 10-year-old girl at the Aurukun Aboriginal community on Cape York have escaped a prison term, with the sentencing judge saying the child victim "probably agreed" to have sex with them.

Cairns-based District Court judge Sarah Bradley ordered that the six teenage juveniles not even have a conviction recorded for the 2005 offence, and that they be placed on a 12-month probation order.

Now if the victim was a blond haired anglo girl and the attackers were of Western appearance, would the same sentence have been passed ?

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Not 'scot-free', Lance.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22896877-601,00.html



Now if the victim was a blond haired anglo girl and the attackers were of Western appearance, would the same sentence have been passed ?

I remember that one actually mate. Although, once again, I don't think it's as cut 'n dried as it appears, it's probably a good example of things going wrong.

I don't think anyone would claim that the legal system is perfect though. In any case, that wasn't the end of the matter:

Sentences increased for child rape at Aurukun

Queensland's Court of Appeal has jailed five of the nine males who raped a 10-year-old girl in the remote Aboriginal community of Aurukun. Originally, all nine escaped prison terms, a decision described by the court today as a miscarriage of justice.

In handing down the decision, the Chief Justice slammed the prosecutors and the District Court judge who handled the case.

David Curnow reports.

DAVID CURNOW: Queensland's Chief Justice, Paul de Jersey, pulled no punches in handing down the Court of Appeal's decision.

PAUL DE JERSEY, QUEENSLAND CHIEF JUSTICE: These errors were so serious as to produce a clear miscarriage of justice.

DAVID CURNOW: The three adults and six juveniles all pleaded guilty to having sex with a 10-year-old girl in Aurukun in far North Queensland in 2006.

At the time, the prosecutor Steve Carter told judge Sarah Bradley the offences were "childish experimentation" and "naughty". He asked for non-custodial sentences, a submission the judge accepted.

PAUL DE JERSEY: The prosecution must bear substantial responsibility for what occurred.

DAVID CURNOW: But, it wasn't only the prosecutor's fault.

PAUL DE JERSEY: The imposition of a proper sentence was ultimately the responsibility of the judge.

DAVID CURNOW: Justice De Jersey criticised the District Court judge for being too hasty in coming to her decision, for not explaining why she gave such light sentences and treating the adult defendants the same as the children.

Three of the males were adults at the time of the rapes. They've all now been sentenced to six years prison and will serve at least two. Two of the youngest in the group were 13 and 14 at the time - they were sentenced to two and three years detention respectively, but will serve half that. Remaining juveniles were placed on three years probation, the longest period allowed. Convictions were recorded.

KERRY SHINE, QUEENSLAND ATTORNEY-GENERAL: This has been a tragic case from start to finish and I'm pleased that our system of justice has delivered the result that it has today.

PAUL LUCAS, ACTING QUEENSLAND PREMIER: Today's decision gives the little girl at the heart of this case the justice that she deserves.

DAVID CURNOW: And child protection advocates say it's not just a victory for the victim.

HETTY JOHNSTON, BRAVEHEARTS: These kids, these young offenders have now, through this decision, got access to rehabilitation and it's critically important to give them the opportunity.

DAVID CURNOW: Lawyers for the nine males say they may lodge an appeal in the High Court, a move the Attorney-General has vowed to fight.

David Curnow, Lateline.

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2007/s2274562.htm

note the underlined quote by Hetty Johnston. Hetty Johnston!!

 

[acker]

what are you talking about acker? That's a very odd comment.

This is the OP, minus any Bolt article



So exactly how do you disagree with the "original poster" without discussing Bolt or the article?

In any case, the article was written by Bolt. And it's just more of the same sensational, lurid bullshit that he goes on about all the time.

I don't believe race played much, if any part, in the deliberation of a professional judge, and I've made that point. However that was the assertion made by Bolt, and simply cut n pasted for the OP, so I really don't get where you're going with it.

Do you agree or disagree with the proposition that Aboriginals get off scot free from serious crimes based solely on the fact that they are Aboriginal?

I disagree the bloke found guilty in the Original Post did not get a jail sentence full stop.

The sentence handed out by the judge was a disgrace, regardless of wether Bolt wrote the story about it or wether someone else did.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

I disagree the bloke found guilty in the Original Post did not get a jail sentence full stop.

The sentence handed out by the judge was a disgrace, regardless of wether Bolt wrote the story about it or wether someone else did.

who are you and what have you done with acker?

 

[fryingpan]

who are you and what have you done with acker?

Most people agree with acker, lance.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Most people agree with acker, lance.

you obviously don't even understand what I'm talking about champ

 

[fryingpan]

you're right I don't.

 

[acker]

who are you and what have you done with acker?

Nah it's me Lance

I just have no tolerance on anyone who does this walking away from court without a prison sentence, even if it was Queen ...Lance

I dont think your circumstances should matter for much for judgement and what I think should be mandatory national sentencing on this type of crime.

This isn't a near mis-hit or misunderstanding of this guy and a consenting 14-15 year old; this guy penetrated a 4 year old girl...no if's, but's or maybe's he should be sentenced to jail regardless of his circumstances or race.

I agree with indigenous courts hearing cases like petty theft, vandalism, etc

But not 24 year old men mucking around with 4 year old girls

And I obviously I disagree with this judge hearing anymore cases full stop.

Two years ago a 24-year-old man broke into a house near Yamba in NSW and went to a room where a four-year-old girl was sleeping.

He stepped out of his underpants and stripped the girl, who told him to go away. The man instead digitally penetrated her and masturbated.

How long would you jail this rapist, who has a long criminal record (albeit not for rape) and was on a bond?

Now let me tell you the jail time the NSW District Court actually imposed.

Nothing. Not a day.

To be precise, Judge Chris Geraghty, a former Catholic priest, gave the rapist a two-year suspended sentence, which meant he could stroll right out of court.

You, like me, will already secretly suspect why such a light sentence was given for such a shocking crime.

Yes, the judge says he merely took into account the man's remorse, his plea of guilty, and the lack of premeditation of a rape that was "a moment of drunken madness".

Two years ago a 24-year-old man broke into a house near Yamba in NSW and went to a room where a four-year-old girl was sleeping.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Nah it's me Lance

I just have no tolerance on anyone who does this walking away from court without a prison sentence, even if it was Queen ...Lance

I dont think your circumstances should matter for much for judgement and what I think should be mandatory national sentencing on this type of crime.

This isn't a near mis-hit or misunderstanding of this guy and a consenting 14-15 year old; this guy penetrated a 4 year old girl...no if's, but's or maybe's he should be sentenced to jail regardless of his circumstances or race.

I agree with indigenous courts hearing cases like petty theft, vandalism, etc

But not 24 year old men mucking around with 4 year old girls

And I obviously I disagree with this judge hearing anymore cases full stop.



Two years ago a 24-year-old man broke into a house near Yamba in NSW and went to a room where a four-year-old girl was sleeping.

I agree with some of that, although it wasn't an indigenous court he was tried in.

The OP (and Bolt) defined this issue as solely one of race. I don't think that's helpful. If there's an issue with any disconnect between sentencing and community expectations, then that's how the discussion should be framed

 

[Bodicifer]

I agree with some of that, although it wasn't an indigenous court he was tried in.

The OP (and Bolt) defined this issue as solely one of race. I don't think that's helpful. If there's an issue with any disconnect between sentencing and community expectations, then that's how the discussion should be framed

Bolt's whole point is to raise the question as to whether or not this #$%er was treated more leniently because of his Aboriginal blood. I think it's certainly a valid point to raise given what seems to be a very lenient sentence for a sicko crime. I for one can't understand why it was so lenient. Yeah he pleaded guilty and it was his first offence but to do what he did to the 4 year old girl should equal some jail time. Bolta is looking for an answer, like most of us, as to why he did not get jail time and I think him pleading guilty is a long bow to draw as the reason. Absolutely he should get some time shaved off for pleading guilty and co-operating but to not get jail I think is a bit weak. So basically Bolt, like most Australian's, want to know if the reason he got off so lightly was due to his blood.

 

[acker]

I agree with some of that, although it wasn't an indigenous court he was tried in.

The OP (and Bolt) defined this issue as solely one of race. I don't think that's helpful. If there's an issue with any disconnect between sentencing and community expectations, then that's how the discussion should be framed

Thats why accept for the predictable parts Bolt put his spin and agenda on, it was actualy a good case to bring to the publics attention.

The judges descision in my opinion was just plain wrong, and I hope the department of public prosecutions succesfully appeals to have it re-heard.

But in the first instance a judge should not get things so wrong.

 

[medusala]

So basically Bolt, like most Australian's, want to know if the reason he got off so lightly was due to his blood.

If aboriginals are far more likely than not to be incarcerated is it not reasonable to suggest that aboriginals are also more likely to be victims of crime?

It is often suggested it is racist to have such a disproportionate crime rate, however why do so many want to condemn a large number of people to being victims of crime solely due to their race?

 

[acker]

If aboriginals are far more likely than not to be incarcerated is it not reasonable to suggest that aboriginals are also more likely to be victims of crime?

It is often suggested it is racist to have such a disproportionate crime rate, however why do so many want to condemn a large number of people to being victims of crime solely due to their race?

Thats a pretty good and valid argument

And you can then toss in a vicious replicating cycle that it produces

Victim becomes Perpertrator and finds another Victim...and the cycle continues to repeat.