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GOTHELIONS16 said:
How can the universe be in such perfect synergy and order without a master behind it? Makes a lot more sense than dark matter and dark energy creating it, considering you can't detect it for a start. So apparently no body times nothing equals everything. Scientists can't prove the big bang theory, which is why its a theory. Why are humans so uniquely complex, set apart from all living things with a conscience, intellect and complex skill set.

To believe in the Big Bang is to believe in chance, so if thats the case why do humans bother forming government, making decisions, creating hierachies, order on the streets. The reality is every effect occurs by some cause, not chance. Fortune was a greek goddess, so if the big bang theory uses chance for logic, and makes the chance of a big bang responsible for all that happens. Using a greek god for the foundation of their theory is ironic when you consider they don't believe a god exists.

Chance has been transformed by athiests into a force of causal power. The world and everything in it was the cause of numerous random events. Nothing is the cause of everything? How irrational? How chaotic? How looney? I wonder when the next random event will take place, since that's apparently how it started? A random event which will be less random than before, when nothing became everything. So then we can presume the world will experience something soon when something becomes something completely different. Or maybe something becomes nothing again? How bizarre, how absurd, purely illogical and ridiculous!

It is actually more scientific that God created the universe than that of the big bang theory. The bible actually has a record of how the world came about.

Then there is the 5 scientific ideas of time, space, force, action and matter which were only suggested 200 years ago. If these scientific terms were eternal before the big bang, then how were things so chaotic causing a big bang? The first verse of the bible, Genesis 1:1 accounts for all 5. "In the beginning (time), God (force), created (action), the heavens (space) and the earth (matter). And this was written well before the 19th century when scientists suggested these 5 ideas for causing everything. Scientists cannot pinpoint the actual origin of everything. The bible does in one verse. It accounts for the ultimate origin of matter, space, time.

Therefore, each person who reads this first verse has a choice to make based on the evidence in front of them, the world you live in. Either you believe God did create everything or you believe he didn't. If he didn't you believe he doesn't exist, nothing makes any sense or has any purpose. If God was a creative intelligence who created the world, then creation is logical and understandable. It is rational and plausible.

So either the array of complex organisms and intelligence we observe reflect the wisdom and power of a personal creator, or all these orderly systems somehow evolved randomly and chaotically from dead matter, and this dead matter evolved from unproven matter, and no real sense can be made of anything.

Albert Einstein himself firmly believed there must be an intelligence that created everything. There are many many scientists who embrace God as the creator of the universe and thus His purposes and plans revealed in the Bible, and the significance of humans bearing His image.

Does this make my post more intellectually worthy for you?
Click to expand...
I know you think you're making an intelligent and coherent argument here, but nearly every statement is so flawed it's actually humourous.
 
Cdog71 said:
This is becoming a bit of a pile on, I’m out.
GOTHELIONS16 no need to answer my question.
I’ll cast it into the sea of forgetfulness
Everyone else, don’t forget…
“Blessed are the Cheesemakers”
Click to expand...
Awww thanks. I actually do make cheese for a living and it’s about time someone gave me and my coworkers some praise.
Next stop - a public holiday
 

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GOTHELIONS16 said:
How can the universe be in such perfect synergy and order without a master behind it? Makes a lot more sense than dark matter and dark energy creating it, considering you can't detect it for a start. So apparently no body times nothing equals everything. Scientists can't prove the big bang theory, which is why its a theory. Why are humans so uniquely complex, set apart from all living things with a conscience, intellect and complex skill set.

To believe in the Big Bang is to believe in chance, so if thats the case why do humans bother forming government, making decisions, creating hierachies, order on the streets. The reality is every effect occurs by some cause, not chance. Fortune was a greek goddess, so if the big bang theory uses chance for logic, and makes the chance of a big bang responsible for all that happens. Using a greek god for the foundation of their theory is ironic when you consider they don't believe a god exists.

Chance has been transformed by athiests into a force of causal power. The world and everything in it was the cause of numerous random events. Nothing is the cause of everything? How irrational? How chaotic? How looney? I wonder when the next random event will take place, since that's apparently how it started? A random event which will be less random than before, when nothing became everything. So then we can presume the world will experience something soon when something becomes something completely different. Or maybe something becomes nothing again? How bizarre, how absurd, purely illogical and ridiculous!

It is actually more scientific that God created the universe than that of the big bang theory. The bible actually has a record of how the world came about.

Then there is the 5 scientific ideas of time, space, force, action and matter which were only suggested 200 years ago. If these scientific terms were eternal before the big bang, then how were things so chaotic causing a big bang? The first verse of the bible, Genesis 1:1 accounts for all 5. "In the beginning (time), God (force), created (action), the heavens (space) and the earth (matter). And this was written well before the 19th century when scientists suggested these 5 ideas for causing everything. Scientists cannot pinpoint the actual origin of everything. The bible does in one verse. It accounts for the ultimate origin of matter, space, time.

Therefore, each person who reads this first verse has a choice to make based on the evidence in front of them, the world you live in. Either you believe God did create everything or you believe he didn't. If he didn't you believe he doesn't exist, nothing makes any sense or has any purpose. If God was a creative intelligence who created the world, then creation is logical and understandable. It is rational and plausible.

So either the array of complex organisms and intelligence we observe reflect the wisdom and power of a personal creator, or all these orderly systems somehow evolved randomly and chaotically from dead matter, and this dead matter evolved from unproven matter, and no real sense can be made of anything.

Albert Einstein himself firmly believed there must be an intelligence that created everything. There are many many scientists who embrace God as the creator of the universe and thus His purposes and plans revealed in the Bible, and the significance of humans bearing His image.

Does this make my post more intellectually worthy for you?
Click to expand...

Ahh the old watchmaker ay.
 
GOTHELIONS16 said:
How can the universe be in such perfect synergy and order without a master behind it? Makes a lot more sense than dark matter and dark energy creating it, considering you can't detect it for a start. So apparently no body times nothing equals everything. Scientists can't prove the big bang theory, which is why its a theory. Why are humans so uniquely complex, set apart from all living things with a conscience, intellect and complex skill set.

To believe in the Big Bang is to believe in chance, so if thats the case why do humans bother forming government, making decisions, creating hierachies, order on the streets. The reality is every effect occurs by some cause, not chance. Fortune was a greek goddess, so if the big bang theory uses chance for logic, and makes the chance of a big bang responsible for all that happens. Using a greek god for the foundation of their theory is ironic when you consider they don't believe a god exists.

Chance has been transformed by athiests into a force of causal power. The world and everything in it was the cause of numerous random events. Nothing is the cause of everything? How irrational? How chaotic? How looney? I wonder when the next random event will take place, since that's apparently how it started? A random event which will be less random than before, when nothing became everything. So then we can presume the world will experience something soon when something becomes something completely different. Or maybe something becomes nothing again? How bizarre, how absurd, purely illogical and ridiculous!

It is actually more scientific that God created the universe than that of the big bang theory. The bible actually has a record of how the world came about.

Then there is the 5 scientific ideas of time, space, force, action and matter which were only suggested 200 years ago. If these scientific terms were eternal before the big bang, then how were things so chaotic causing a big bang? The first verse of the bible, Genesis 1:1 accounts for all 5. "In the beginning (time), God (force), created (action), the heavens (space) and the earth (matter). And this was written well before the 19th century when scientists suggested these 5 ideas for causing everything. Scientists cannot pinpoint the actual origin of everything. The bible does in one verse. It accounts for the ultimate origin of matter, space, time.

Therefore, each person who reads this first verse has a choice to make based on the evidence in front of them, the world you live in. Either you believe God did create everything or you believe he didn't. If he didn't you believe he doesn't exist, nothing makes any sense or has any purpose. If God was a creative intelligence who created the world, then creation is logical and understandable. It is rational and plausible.

So either the array of complex organisms and intelligence we observe reflect the wisdom and power of a personal creator, or all these orderly systems somehow evolved randomly and chaotically from dead matter, and this dead matter evolved from unproven matter, and no real sense can be made of anything.

Albert Einstein himself firmly believed there must be an intelligence that created everything. There are many many scientists who embrace God as the creator of the universe and thus His purposes and plans revealed in the Bible, and the significance of humans bearing His image.

Does this make my post more intellectually worthy for you?
Click to expand...
It's an implausible theory that cannot be argued with a more plausible theory.
 
Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist.

“Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing,”

GOTHELIONS16 said:
Using a greek god for the foundation of their theory is ironic when you consider they don't believe a god exists.
Click to expand...
It’s you who is doing that.
GOTHELIONS16 said:
There are many many scientists who embrace God as the creator
Click to expand...
Maybe there is, I’m sure many do say they are religious, but I doubt it’s in the conventional sense.
Some may say there’s a divinity in Mathematics but that doesn’t make them a Christian.
 
GOTHELIONS16 said:
How can the universe be in such perfect synergy and order without a master behind it? Makes a lot more sense than dark matter and dark energy creating it, considering you can't detect it for a start. So apparently no body times nothing equals everything. Scientists can't prove the big bang theory, which is why its a theory. Why are humans so uniquely complex, set apart from all living things with a conscience, intellect and complex skill set.

To believe in the Big Bang is to believe in chance, so if thats the case why do humans bother forming government, making decisions, creating hierachies, order on the streets. The reality is every effect occurs by some cause, not chance. Fortune was a greek goddess, so if the big bang theory uses chance for logic, and makes the chance of a big bang responsible for all that happens. Using a greek god for the foundation of their theory is ironic when you consider they don't believe a god exists.

Chance has been transformed by athiests into a force of causal power. The world and everything in it was the cause of numerous random events. Nothing is the cause of everything? How irrational? How chaotic? How looney? I wonder when the next random event will take place, since that's apparently how it started? A random event which will be less random than before, when nothing became everything. So then we can presume the world will experience something soon when something becomes something completely different. Or maybe something becomes nothing again? How bizarre, how absurd, purely illogical and ridiculous!

It is actually more scientific that God created the universe than that of the big bang theory. The bible actually has a record of how the world came about.

Then there is the 5 scientific ideas of time, space, force, action and matter which were only suggested 200 years ago. If these scientific terms were eternal before the big bang, then how were things so chaotic causing a big bang? The first verse of the bible, Genesis 1:1 accounts for all 5. "In the beginning (time), God (force), created (action), the heavens (space) and the earth (matter). And this was written well before the 19th century when scientists suggested these 5 ideas for causing everything. Scientists cannot pinpoint the actual origin of everything. The bible does in one verse. It accounts for the ultimate origin of matter, space, time.

Therefore, each person who reads this first verse has a choice to make based on the evidence in front of them, the world you live in. Either you believe God did create everything or you believe he didn't. If he didn't you believe he doesn't exist, nothing makes any sense or has any purpose. If God was a creative intelligence who created the world, then creation is logical and understandable. It is rational and plausible.

So either the array of complex organisms and intelligence we observe reflect the wisdom and power of a personal creator, or all these orderly systems somehow evolved randomly and chaotically from dead matter, and this dead matter evolved from unproven matter, and no real sense can be made of anything.

Albert Einstein himself firmly believed there must be an intelligence that created everything. There are many many scientists who embrace God as the creator of the universe and thus His purposes and plans revealed in the Bible, and the significance of humans bearing His image.

Does this make my post more intellectually worthy for you?
Click to expand...
You're not being logical. Unfortunately , most Christians were brainwashed as children into believing in a god.
If you hadn't been brought up that way, you would think a god is a proposterous proposition.
If you want to worship something, worship the environment which gives us life.
 

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Nice Swan Brother said:
Debatable...you are probably right, but with a lack of evidence to the contrary, it is not yet a lie.
Click to expand...
Oh no, it is definitely a lie. I don't know what lies out there. But I do know it's not what is written in the Bible/Koran/Torah etc
 
GOTHELIONS16 said:
How can the universe be in such perfect synergy and order without a master behind it? Makes a lot more sense than dark matter and dark energy creating it, considering you can't detect it for a start. So apparently no body times nothing equals everything. Scientists can't prove the big bang theory, which is why its a theory. Why are humans so uniquely complex, set apart from all living things with a conscience, intellect and complex skill set.

To believe in the Big Bang is to believe in chance, so if thats the case why do humans bother forming government, making decisions, creating hierachies, order on the streets. The reality is every effect occurs by some cause, not chance. Fortune was a greek goddess, so if the big bang theory uses chance for logic, and makes the chance of a big bang responsible for all that happens. Using a greek god for the foundation of their theory is ironic when you consider they don't believe a god exists.

Chance has been transformed by athiests into a force of causal power. The world and everything in it was the cause of numerous random events. Nothing is the cause of everything? How irrational? How chaotic? How looney? I wonder when the next random event will take place, since that's apparently how it started? A random event which will be less random than before, when nothing became everything. So then we can presume the world will experience something soon when something becomes something completely different. Or maybe something becomes nothing again? How bizarre, how absurd, purely illogical and ridiculous!

It is actually more scientific that God created the universe than that of the big bang theory. The bible actually has a record of how the world came about.

Then there is the 5 scientific ideas of time, space, force, action and matter which were only suggested 200 years ago. If these scientific terms were eternal before the big bang, then how were things so chaotic causing a big bang? The first verse of the bible, Genesis 1:1 accounts for all 5. "In the beginning (time), God (force), created (action), the heavens (space) and the earth (matter). And this was written well before the 19th century when scientists suggested these 5 ideas for causing everything. Scientists cannot pinpoint the actual origin of everything. The bible does in one verse. It accounts for the ultimate origin of matter, space, time.

Therefore, each person who reads this first verse has a choice to make based on the evidence in front of them, the world you live in. Either you believe God did create everything or you believe he didn't. If he didn't you believe he doesn't exist, nothing makes any sense or has any purpose. If God was a creative intelligence who created the world, then creation is logical and understandable. It is rational and plausible.

So either the array of complex organisms and intelligence we observe reflect the wisdom and power of a personal creator, or all these orderly systems somehow evolved randomly and chaotically from dead matter, and this dead matter evolved from unproven matter, and no real sense can be made of anything.

Albert Einstein himself firmly believed there must be an intelligence that created everything. There are many many scientists who embrace God as the creator of the universe and thus His purposes and plans revealed in the Bible, and the significance of humans bearing His image.

Does this make my post more intellectually worthy for you?
Click to expand...
Do you believe the Earth is flat? If not, think about how stupid you think the people who believe it are and then realise that's what others think about anyone who believes the drivel you've spouted in this thread.
 
GOTHELIONS16 said:
To believe in the Big Bang is to believe in chance, so if thats the case why do humans bother forming government, making decisions, creating hierachies, order on the streets. The reality is every effect occurs by some cause, not chance. Fortune was a greek goddess, so if the big bang theory uses chance for logic, and makes the chance of a big bang responsible for all that happens. Using a greek god for the foundation of their theory is ironic when you consider they don't believe a god exists.
Click to expand...
I have to say, this paragraph especially, will give me belly laughs for weeks to come. Is this stuff you've thought through or are you just trying to make an argument on the fly?
 
GOTHELIONS16 said:
No humans are powerless. Which is why we need Jesus and what he did for us as Christians. The power of the cross over rides any moral failings by Christian’s. By grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is a gift from God.
Click to expand...
I’ve always wondered if Jesus had have been guillotined would it be ‘the power of the razor blade?’
 
download (5).jpeg
Jesus looked like this and was a political rebel. There's no evidence he had magical powers.

Jesus certainly kept some shady political company. One of his inner circle was known as Simon the Zealot, the Zealots being an underground anti-imperialist movement dedicated to driving the Romans out of Palestine. The Roman presence in the province was not in fact particularly oppressive. No Roman institutions, legal, educational or religious, were imposed on the people. In Jesus’s own home territory of Galilee there was no official Roman presence at all, so it is unlikely that he would have grown up at the knee of smoulderingly anti-imperialist parents. Any Roman soldiers he saw as a child would have been on holiday.

Even so, there were religious reasons why even hands-off rule by a pagan state was objectionable to God’s chosen people. The Zealots wanted a purified, traditionalist, theocratic Jewish state, and promoted a theology not unlike that of al-Qaeda today. In addition to the militant Simon, two other of Jesus’s disciples, James and John, are given a nickname (Sons of Thunder) which some New Testament scholars suspect may link them, too, to the insurrectionists. Perhaps Judas sold Jesus because he had expected him to be Lenin, and became bitterly disenchanted when he realized that he was not going to lead the people against the colonial power.
 
SBD Gonzalez said:
Great, just prove the existence of “god”, like scientists provide proof for their theories, and your post won’t be intellectually worthless.
Click to expand...
Christianity and intellect are polar opposites.
 
GOTHELIONS16 said:
Albert Einstein himself firmly believed there must be an intelligence that created everything.
Click to expand...
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. .... For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions."[18][19][20] In 2018 his letter to Gutkind was sold for $2.9 million.[21]

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.[22]
Click to expand...
Your question is the most difficult in the world. It is not a question I can answer simply with yes or no. I am not an Atheist. I do not know if I can define myself as a Pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. May I not reply with a parable? The human mind, no matter how highly trained, cannot grasp the universe. We are in the position of a little child, entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books, a mysterious order, which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of the human mind, even the greatest and most cultured, toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws, but we understand the laws only dimly. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's Pantheism. I admire even more his contributions to modern thought. Spinoza is the greatest of modern philosophers, because he is the first philosopher who deals with the soul and the body as one, not as two separate things.[23]

Spinoza wrote a book called Ethica in 1665
 
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