USA Another US mass shooting

[dumb]

Gun laws aside, why are so many lunatics engaging is mass shootings? That question is just as important as why is it so easy to get an assault rifle?

ease of access, inability to healthily deal with emotions, and learned behaviour. when you feel aggrieved you shoot people, it's what they do.

 

[O Grobbecker]

Yeah. And 'trivial access to high powered weaponry' is the main driver of that danger.



Those regions discussed are usually large urban areas (NY, California, Chicago etc) where crime is always more abundant.

There is a strong correlation between 'gun ownership' with 'firearm deaths' and also 'mass shootings'.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/26/politics/gun-violence-data-what-matters/index.html

Im a community law service lawyer, specializing in Domestic Violence at present. I assure you, with the clients I see (many of whom are addled on meth) the last thing we need in Australia is arming these cookers, by flooding the community with easily accessible handguns and assault rifles.

There is a reason Americas homicide rate is literally 10 times higher than ours, mass shootings are commonplace, and a dozen US cities feature in the most dangerous cities in the world lists (with murder rates 100 times that of ours).

They're that ****ed that even common-sense middle ground proposals (no bump stocks, domestic violence abusers, terrorists and mentally unwell should be denied access to guns, background checks for gun owners, no assault weapons etc) get rejected.

It's madness over there, and the rest of the world looks in in horror.

Thankyou for the response. Don't get me wrong, I accept and agree with your position absolutely, I used to argue exactly the same when I debated with US pro firearm proponents. From an Australian point of view, it's unarguable. But the other side are not the mindless living in a Hollywood fantasy world or stupid. Their Right to Bear Arms is very important to them and they have arguments in support. Keep up the good work (your career).

 

[Malifice]

ease of access, inability to healthily deal with emotions, and learned behaviour. when you feel aggrieved you shoot people, it's what they do.

Our batshit crazy loners are reduced to sending sternly worded rambling letters to the local council.

Our street thugs are left with nothing other than knives at worst.

Meanwhile hunters can still hunt, and sports shooters can still sports shoot.

We've gotten the balance right.

 

[Spearman]

There's the same amount of lunatics here/every western nation for sure. We just don't have easy access to semi automatic rifles and such, thankfully.

Exactly. People wig out everywhere, all the time. Road rage, holiday family violence, going postal et al. Add to that easily obtained firearms of any kind, remember the bad old days of Saturday Night Specials, and a vague but deep echo of frontier culture. You could even include the desensitization of modern culture into it as well. It's a shit stew for sure.

I wonder if anyone has done a study of what the numbers would be if all of the shootings had been done with a something like a six-shot pistol, pump shotgun or bolt action type hunting rifle?
I know the states far outstretch other nations in total numbers of serial murders, but minus the military type weapon, how would the percentages compare to murders in Japan(mostly knife) or India, for example. Would be interesting to see the effect if there were no semi/automatic weapons in civilian hands. But I am sure the US culture does lend itself for gun violence. We were brought up on cowboys and outlaws shooting it out.
Our heroes were killers too. I was so young I can barely remember it, but I had a coonskin hat and a mini flintlock rifle that clicked on caps that made a loud bang. Davy Crockett and Daniel Boone were big time cultural icons and heroes. I read the classics comic book version of Last of the Mohicans when I was G2 or 3. We visited old forts from those frontier days, often they had depictions of the battles and massacres that happened there. I have an old photo of me and my sibs in stocks taken at one of the old Brit forts. And this is only in the Midwest. You go out west and there is even more. You got the hillbilly feuds in Appalachia, the Revolution in New England, and of course everyone knows about the South.
You cannot underestimate the depth of cultural indoctrination. National myths are a part of every nation's education. We see this imagery as soon as we learn the Pledge of Allegiance.

As was said by Grobbs , US has some deep cultural and societal issues.

 

[Nice Swan Brother]

There's the same amount of lunatics here/every western nation for sure. We just don't have easy access to semi automatic rifles and such, thankfully.

I am not sure, I am certainly not arguing against gun control, but whilst I am sure we would have more mass shootings if we had ready access to firearms, I am not sure it would be to the same degree.

There is something really wrong over there

 

[Ants]

I am not sure, I am certainly not arguing against gun control, but whilst I am sure we would have more mass shootings if we had ready access to firearms, I am not sure it would be to the same degree.

There is something really wrong over there

Agreed. Canadians, Swiss, and many other countries have high access to guns without the mass shootings that the US has.

 

[O Grobbecker]

Agreed. Canadians, Swiss, and many other countries have high access to guns without the mass shootings that the US has.

US
Per head of population: 120 per 100.
Constitutional Right to Bear Arms. Unlimited

Canada
Automatic firearms prohibited
Semi-automatic firearms restricted i e need a permit
handguns mostly prohibited
Per head of population: 34 per 100.
Constitutional Right to Bear Arms. Nil

Switzerland
Traditionally extensive national service and firearms keep at home. Since 2019, the same as the EU
Semi automatics. restricted (permit required)
Hand handguns. restricted ditto
Per head of population 27 per 100 people.
Constitutional right to bear arms Yes. Extensive and Ongoing national service obligations

Chalk and cheese.

 

[Strange Cat]

USA is a failed society , you would have to be lobotomised to want to live there imo

 

[O Grobbecker]

USA is a failed society , you would have to be lobotomised to want to live there imo

Disagree, as far from a failed state as is possible. It's an upright and generous State with a history of exceptionalism and leadership. Our constitution is based on that of the US, we learned from its experiences. Although I have American rellies, I'd only want to live there if denied NZ,UK, Ireland or Canada not in that order.

 

[Strange Cat]

Disagree, as far from a failed state as is possible. It's an upright and generous State with a history of exceptionalism and leadership. Our constitution is based on that of the US, we learned from its experiences. Although I have American rellies, I'd only want to live there if denied NZ,UK, Ireland or Canada not in that order.

Oh really you think with their health system , justice system and the gun culture that it’s a fair and safe society?

You couldn’t pay me enough to live there

 

[Spearman]

Oh really you think with their health system , justice system and the gun culture that it’s a fair and safe society?

You couldn’t pay me enough to live there

For the first two reasons, I would be hesitant to go back. The gun thing, depends where you are. I'm from the PacNW mostly. If I could, I'd be out beyond the normal commute distance to Seattle or even out off the grid on the Olympic Peninsula. Anywhere away from a crowded city or suburb, but near the ski slopes and boat marinas. Many shootings happen at malls. I hate malls with a passion so I'm safe then.

Plus I'd have a collection of antique and WW2 rifles to keep me safe.

 

[O Grobbecker]

Oh really you think with their health system , justice system and the gun culture that it’s a fair and safe society?

You couldn’t pay me enough to live there

Health System: A strength and weakness of the US is its culture of self reliance, that's part of the firearm culture, too. By contrast, we rely heavily upon Government beneficence. The US developed individualism by its frontier history and war of independence, we have always relied upon government to look after us, perhaps that's a consequence of our beginnings as a penal colony. Yes, Medicare is the best in the World but it's consistent with our government reliant culture.
Legal system: Our High Court's greater reliance upon precedent, objectivity, reluctance to overturn earlier decisions and preferment by our Judges for black letter law over reformism prevailant in the US Supreme Court.
Guns culture. Refer to previous posts.
Now, the big one.
Preferred living: O Grobekker's favourite cousin, Abyasa, the People Smuggler, offers you Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Ukraine, Russia, Somalia, South Africa, Zimbabwe, South Sudan, Thailand, Philippines Xinjiang (that's a bit cheeky), Hong Kong, North Korea and the US. Your choice ?

 

[O Grobbecker]

For the first two reasons, I would be hesitant to go back. The gun thing, depends where you are. I'm from the PacNW mostly. If I could, I'd be out beyond the normal commute distance to Seattle or even out off the grid on the Olympic Peninsula. Anywhere away from a crowded city or suburb, but near the ski slopes and boat marinas. Many shootings happen at malls. I hate malls with a passion so I'm safe then.

Plus I'd have a collection of antique and WW2 rifles to keep me safe.

Nobody could blame you for that, least of all the descendants of those who caught the boat to Australia instead of to the US way back then. The US gets no appreciation for the massive good its done throughout its history; Barbary Pirates, League of Nations, Battle of Coral Sea, Marshall Plan, NATO, SEATO, Post WW11 World Order, Northern Ireland Peace Process, the list is limited only by my miniscule world knowledge.

 

[Spearman]

Nobody could blame you for that, least of all the descendants of those who caught the boat to Australia instead of to the US way back then. The US gets no appreciation for the massive good its done throughout its history; Barbary Pirates, League of Nations, Battle of Coral Sea, Marshall Plan, NATO, SEATO, Post WW11 World Order, Northern Ireland Peace Process, the list is limited only by my miniscule world knowledge.

On behalf of the myself and the rest of us mongrel Americans, Aye thank yew.



as usual he nails it. I originally left simply because I was so bored with the mini-malls culture I was getting too deep into bad habits.
The only things I miss are the snow and the skiing, the fishing, and backpacking. Oh yes and the local microbrews.

 

[O Grobbecker]

On behalf of the myself and the rest of us mongrel Americans, Aye thank yew.

... I originally left simply because I was so bored with the mini-malls culture I was getting too deep into bad habits.
The only things I miss are the snow and the skiing, the fishing, and backpacking. Oh yes and the local microbrews.

Try Falls Creek, it has all that except "microbrews" ? Self deprecation ? I thought that was ours, you Yanks are good at it, too. Whilst I'd like to think that we Australians are more refined than to talk about obese women's arse wiping, my brother in law's family came for Aus Day's barbie on Thursday. Your irreverent comedian mate would have loved that barbie, material for a year.

Stick fat, mate

 

[Sydney Kicker]

Oh really you think with their health system , justice system and the gun culture that it’s a fair and safe society?

You couldn’t pay me enough to live there

The USA is great - to visit. The National Parks, the great cities, breweries, wineries, theme parks, shopping. Even Walmart was interesting (to a degree).

But I'm white and could afford comprehensive travel insurance including health cover. Plus I was visiting on long service leave.

If you live there and you're poor, from a minority background and sick, it would be a nightmare. Plus their labour laws are hideous.

 

[O Grobbecker]

The USA is great - to visit. The National Parks, the great cities, breweries, wineries, theme parks, shopping. Even Walmart was interesting (to a degree).

But I'm white and could afford comprehensive travel insurance including health cover. Plus I was visiting on long service leave.

If you live there and you're poor, from a minority background and sick, it would be a nightmare. Plus their labour laws are hideous.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Health System: A strength and weakness of the US is its culture of self reliance, that's part of the firearm culture, too. By contrast, we rely heavily upon Government beneficence. The US developed individualism by its frontier history and war of independence, we have always relied upon government to look after us, perhaps that's a consequence of our beginnings as a penal colony. Yes, Medicare is the best in the World but it's consistent with our government reliant culture.
Legal system: Our High Court's greater reliance upon precedent, objectivity, reluctance to overturn earlier decisions and preferment by our Judges for black letter law over reformism prevailant in the US Supreme Court.
Guns culture. Refer to previous posts.
Now, the big one.
Preferred living: O Grobekker's favourite cousin, Abyasa, the People Smuggler, offers you Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Ukraine, Russia, Somalia, South Africa, Zimbabwe, South Sudan, Thailand, Philippines Xinjiang (that's a bit cheeky), Hong Kong, North Korea and the US. Your choice ?

Health system of deliberately inflated costs to bill insurance companies to make money and keeping those inflated prices to put the uninsured into medical bankruptcy? It’s bullshit.

And from that list of countries definitely Hong Kong - would just need to be careful about what one says but not such danger of randomly being shot

 

[Nice Swan Brother]

Look up the cost of medications for those who don't have insurance. Insurance is often tied to the employer. Lose your job, lose your insurance and the medication you need (often dangerous to stop abruptly) becomes unaffordable.

The PBS is amazing, not only the subsidies, but the fact the TGA won't approve a drug for Australia until they negotiate a fair price with the pharma company.

A Ventolin inhaler in the US would set you back over $100 AUD, you can pick one up at Chemist Warehouse without a script for $9.99. Imagine having ADHD, 30 pills of Dexamphetamine (10 days supply) would cost $60 AUD or $180 a month. Here 100 pills (month supply) costs $10, and is even cheaper with a concession card. Vyvanse (also ADHD drug) costs $650+ AUD in the US, here it is $92 (the price the TGA negotiated), becomes $29 for those with a Medicare card, $6.30 for those with a concession and free for those with a safety net entitlement card.

Its these types of things that annoy me when people shit on Australia for being too progressive or not progressive enough.

 

[kranky al]

Our batshit crazy loners are reduced to sending sternly worded rambling letters to the local council.

Our street thugs are left with nothing other than knives at worst.

Meanwhile hunters can still hunt, and sports shooters can still sports shoot.

We've gotten the balance right.

Bang on.

Theres a huge difference between going at someone close range with a knife - theres still an element of physical courage involved and multiple bystanders can gang up on you.

Being able to stand off and pull a trigger is less reliant on any form of courage. Shit you can have a whole sheriffs department sit outside a building whilst you waste kids.

 

[Cuzz09]

Apparently we've got a lot of conspiracy theorist/off the grid/anti police nut jobs living in rural areas that have access to guns though.



On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Malifice]

Apparently we've got a lot of conspiracy theorist/off the grid/anti police nut jobs living in rural areas that have access to guns though.



On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

They've always been around. Generally, they're mainly a threat to their wives.

With increased radicalization of these cookers via the internet, we'll see more of what happened in QLD sadly.

 

[Cuzz09]

They've always been around. Generally, they're mainly a threat to their wives.

With increased radicalization of these cookers via the internet, we'll see more of what happened in QLD sadly.

Horrible.

Hopefully police are now more aware of things from that incident

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Malifice]

Horrible.

Hopefully police are now more aware of things from that incident

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

Policing them is hard. If you crack down on them it just feeds into their paranoia and worldview and makes them more desperate and more dangerous.

Same with efforts to deradicalize them. Talking sense to them is like trying to convince an anti-vaxxer, flat earther, religious fundamentalist or Qanon nuffie that they're actually wrong. It's all but impossible.

Ive tried. We've all tried. It never works. Best thing you can do is block them and move on (which only contributes to their social isolation).

Best practice is to usually leave them alone as much as possible (which works for everyone). Inevitably there is a run in with the law, unpaid taxes, a firearms violation or something similar and they then escalate dramatically.

 

[Farmer2Goggin]

Policing them is hard. If you crack down on them it just feeds into their paranoia and worldview and makes them more desperate and more dangerous.

Same with efforts to deradicalize them. Talking sense to them is like trying to convince an anti-vaxxer, flat earther, religious fundamentalist or Qanon nuffie that they're actually wrong. It's all but impossible.

Ive tried. We've all tried. It never works. Best thing you can do is block them and move on (which only contributes to their social isolation).

Best practice is to usually leave them alone as much as possible (which works for everyone). Inevitably there is a run in with the law, unpaid taxes, a firearms violation or something similar and they then escalate dramatically.

Stands to reason that those so far down the rabbit hole as to believe in these conspiracies and things like Sov Cits are beyond help.
You cannot change them and their “research” fed by hungry algorithms just reinforces their beliefs.
Apart from them being batshit crazy think of the huge toll it takes on their families and loved ones……….