Another year but some old problems remain

[Daytripper]

I see - so Bomber Thompson didn't play any of those guys a few years back when they weren't a real threat for the flag.

I understand your frustration with this forum and the - they're young argument=they're better than senior guys.

However that was not my argument. I said we should be playing more youngsters to fast track their development - I didn't say that they should just walk up in the 22 but it seems everyone here was raving 3 years ago about how playing finals would help the kids - well why is tis argument not true in H&A.

We should be giving guys like Lonergan a go int he seniors ahead of Bolton and Heff. If they are no good, we will find out much faster in the big league. We already know where Bolton and Heff will take us.

I don't want a team full of 18 year olds - but we should have 18year olds in the team. After all, who has stepped up this year - Ryder and Davey. Nash looks like he might make it, but after that, what ha this year wielded us?

Learning that Bolton and Heff will not take us any further? That Cole is a spud? That Hird is a great player?

If you don;t like the North example, what about Collingwood then? Malthouse has shown faith in his younger players and that has meant they are doing better than they thought they would. I know injuries haven't helped, but his insistence on playing his tried and failed boys on the big occasions reeks of a guy trying to keep his job.

Every year around this time we hear the - I'll bring in youth and speed talk - it is as always crap. He doesn't do this, he just says it to sucker the simple Essendon faithful.

He has been good for us no doubt, but he has taken us nowhere for quite a while, and there is not enough to be happy about just yet.

Why does he draft attacking mids only to play them as defensive stoppers or forward pockets? We have a crap midefiled becasue we won't play our mids in those roles as attacking players.

How can we have any flair when our younger players are constantly berated for getting burnt on the turn over. We haven't played enough youngster sin the middle - WC (yes they have an extraordinary group ) but they played them there and let them develop. Guys like Swall ow and Wells have been given time in the middle. Sherman, Hadely at Brisbane.

You can't make young midfielders good by not letting them play where they will learn the most.

Firstly,
Sherman and Hadley are both currently toiling away for the Brisbane Lions reserves.
Wells is a 4th year player.
Swallow is an exceptionally good 2nd year player - similar to Stanton last season.

Secondly,
Why should we have an 18yo in the team ?
To give them a go.......its ridiculous.

If Lonergan or Reimers or Houli was good enough, then surely they should be carving it up at Bendigo level.
Or is the logic, he doesn't play well at Bendigo but he will play well in the seniors.

The only thing I want is for my team to win games. I couldn't give a stuff how many kids are on our list or how many games they have played in the seniors. I'm interested in their progress and its good when they debut to see what is ahead but I'm not going to get sucked in to the hype.

 

[Pevers-Legend]

Firstly,
Sherman and Hadley are both currently toiling away for the Brisbane Lions reserves.
Wells is a 4th year player.
Swallow is an exceptionally good 2nd year player - similar to Stanton last season.

Secondly,
Why should we have an 18yo in the team ?
To give them a go.......its ridiculous.

If Lonergan or Reimers or Houli was good enough, then surely they should be carving it up at Bendigo level.
Or is the logic, he doesn't play well at Bendigo but he will play well in the seniors.

The only thing I want is for my team to win games. I couldn't give a stuff how many kids are on our list or how many games they have played in the seniors. I'm interested in their progress and its good when they debut to see what is ahead but I'm not going to get sucked in to the hype.

I am not advocating playing 18yr olds who can't get a kick - but if they are showing something and there is room in the team, then yes in a re-building phase we should be giving them a go. It is amazing what confidence can do for people.

I hate the idea of whoring all principles to play youth, but there is merit in giving 1 or 2 youger players a fast tracked development when the time is right.

I think the coach is coaching for his career - not for the best interests of the list. I call it how I see it.

 

[ant555]

Guys like Firrito ,McIntosh ,Smith ,Swallow etc were given time to develop int he seniors. My argument is just that - young player don't just equate to first year draft picks. I don't expect us to be top 4. But we are treading water playing older guys

.

The guys i mentioned didnt play a lot of footy early. North have been very patient with a lot of their young players.
We have been treading water becasue we have had to up until now. If we had been able to get more from the players who where drafted in 1999,2000,2001 and even 2002 we wouldnt have to use some of the older guys. The trouble is most of these guys are gone.

You say he has played Monfries - he is a mid - how much time has he spent there?

Well for a start he could to any work in the gym before last season becasue of his shoulder reco so he could not be used in the midfield. He had to play small forward as he wasnt solid enough for the midfield.
This year he has been sent to the midfield a few times but the results have not been great so he has been moved back to the forward line.

He played Bradley becasue he had no option. And we have all seen the great benefit of playing a guy out of position to turn him into something he is not.

Very easy to say that in hindsight.Where you saying the same thing after he showed good promise in his first two seasons or is it just convieniant to put it like that now after the thrid season.
Anyway my point with Bradley was he did get played in season one and two and his development was coming along ok until he flopped last year.

If the youngsters a re dropped on form - how has Mark Johnson kept his spot? He has been nothing short of crap some weeks.

Did you miss the part where i said injury as well ? In regards to dropping the young players.
Im with you i have questioned Johnsons spot a few times but in saying that Sheedy has been reasonably consistant at dropping players out of form. Bradley , Johns , Heff , Bolts , Monfries and Campo have all been sent back to Bendigo after average games.

Why was Johns brought in 2 weeks ago when Bradelys form warranted a return?

I asked the same thing but wernt we discussing the merrit of playing young players rather than playing older players . Bradley and Johns both 21.

It is Sheedy's ego driven need to prove he is right. Why did we keep McAlister for so long? Bolton? Henneman? Because of his need to prove he was right.

To start with you can look at every club and really question WTF they where thinking with certain players.
McAlister becasue they thought he could play.They where wrong but he wasnt around for a huge anount of times in the scheme of things.
Henno becasue when his contract came up he was deemed to be a back up as a tall defender. It may have been handy to have had him fit last year when Kep was being smashed every week.
Bolts was shopped around a few times but they had no takers. He only survived this year as a backup. If Danny Jacobs didnt leave and go to the Hwaks for more money Bolts would have been well departed by now anyway.
Anway it is easy for you and i to have an opinion on it. At the end of the day i would hope the coach does have a bit of an ego and he backs his judgment. I wouldnt want Sheedy to be second guessing himself and thinking he is wrong about how he puts together his list. I want him to think he is right becasue it is the boards job at contract time to say sorry Kev but we dont think you are correct.

As I said, he has done a lot of great things for our club, but some people seem to develop blinkers when speaking about him.

Criticise him, how dare you. It's really lame

I have questioned a number of things he has done this year. If you hadn't noticed i put up a new thread yesterday questioning WTF has been going on with a few thing in our onfield performances over the last 5 years.And i have never said that i wanted him to stay on as coach yet. Im still pretty much 50/50 as far as that goes.
I havent got the blinkers on at all. I think it is pretty lame on your behalf to simply say that becasue i dont agree with what you say it is becasue i dont think anyone should be questioning Sheedy.
I took your view apart a little bit simply becasue IMO i didnt think you where being 100% accurate.

 

[ant555]

I am not advocating playing 18yr olds who can't get a kick - but if they are showing something and there is room in the team, then yes in a re-building phase we should be giving them a go. It is amazing what confidence can do for people.

Isnt this exactly what he has done with Ryder ?
It is also the same thing he did with Bradley before it went horribly wrong and he didnt have a replacement for him becasue of injuries.

I hate the idea of whoring all principles to play youth, but there is merit in giving 1 or 2 youger players a fast tracked development when the time is right.

Davey ?? Ryder ?? Monfries ??
To add to this whenever Lyacock and Winderlich havnt been injured they have been pretty much played in the seniors rather than Bendigo.
Lovett and Lovett-Murray both where given good runs early on.

I think the coach is coaching for his career - not for the best interests of the list. I call it how I see it

Well yes he is coching for his "coaching carrer" this year but you could hardly say he has completly sold the club down the drain to look after himself. Lets face it he has never given away first round draft picks. Over the last 5 years we have always take 5 to 7 kids in the drafts. He has taken KP talls early in the draft that will need time to develop into good players rather than taking quick fix ready made players.
On top of all of this it is not like he will be unemployed if he isnt given another go. He will more than likely make more money in the media and working with the AFL than he ever will coaching. Before it is even certain that he is going he has had several Job offers.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

I'll give you one reason whey we are having these problems - 2000 draft :

17 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Davies"]James Davies[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xavier_College"]Xavier College[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essendon_Football_Club"]Essendon[/URL]   
18 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kerr"]Daniel Kerr[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Fremantle_Football_Club"]East Fremantle Football Club[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Eagles"]West Coast Eagles[/URL]

Oh dear

 

[Pevers-Legend]

.

I have questioned a number of things he has done this year. If you hadn't noticed i put up a new thread yesterday questioning WTF has been going on with a few thing in our onfield performances over the last 5 years.And i have never said that i wanted him to stay on as coach yet. Im still pretty much 50/50 as far as that goes.
I havent got the blinkers on at all. I think it is pretty lame on your behalf to simply say that becasue i dont agree with what you say it is becasue i dont think anyone should be questioning Sheedy.
I took your view apart a little bit simply becasue IMO i didnt think you where being 100% accurate.

I know you have and it wasn't soley directed at you. Sorry if it came across that way.

By the by:

Selecting Laycock early in the year with no fitness base, Stanton when he was clearly injured are two examples of him coaching for himself.

 

[ant555]

I know you have and it wasn't soley directed at you. Sorry if it came across that way.

By the by:

Selecting Laycock early in the year with no fitness base, Stanton when he was clearly injured are two examples of him coaching for himself.

Selecting Stanton twice when he was injured.
Playing Lloyd injured on Anzac day.
Playing Bolton rather than Lonergan or Houli on Anzac day.
Selecting Johns over Bradley two weeks ago.
Playing Johns on a half forward flank when he is in the side.
The set up of our forward line at times this year.

Im sure i could find more that you would agree with.

 

[nicho_magic]

A lot of our problems can be solved with the addition of a hard running midfielder with a bit of class.

You either trade for one or try and draft one. We've done neither (except for the last draft).

i beleive this is our major problem, and with one or 2 gun / fast midfielders our issues would be solved.

 

[RED AND BLACK SOLDIER]

I'll give you one reason whey we are having these problems - 2000 draft :

17 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Davies"]James Davies[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xavier_College"]Xavier College[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essendon_Football_Club"]Essendon[/URL]   
18 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kerr"]Daniel Kerr[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Fremantle_Football_Club"]East Fremantle Football Club[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Eagles"]West Coast Eagles[/URL]

Oh dear

What about the "Superdraft", the only player selected in that "Superdraft" that is still on our list is Welsh. IMO, that's just pathetic.

 

[ant555]

Im not going to single out any players in particular and start a witch hunt but the same problems we have had for 5 or 6 years remain.

1. Poor skill level. Across the board our skills are simply not good enough.
2. We seem to have no idea on how to pass the footy. We continually kick the high and not to the advantage of our own players.
3.Our midfield doesnt know how to block or clear a path at clearances.
4. We continually have two or 3 players running to the same spot.
5. Despite having numerous drills at training that focus at running the ball down the lines we still stand around in groups on match day and handball to stationary targets.
6. We dont have enough hard runners in the midfield who also have some skill and class.
7. A lot of the time we are happy to play the "me" game . At stages we simply dont work hard enough. Players make short leads an when someone covers it they dont lead again as the feel they have done enough.
8. We zone off and let players get a 3 meter break on us too easily.
9. We refuse to shepphard. Rather than giving a handball and then blocking to get a player in the clear we try and position ourselves for another cheap stat.
10. We never make any serious attemps to guard the mark.
11. We seem to lack confiedence in attacking ball carriers. More often than not we simply try and coral players rather than pressuring them.

I know that this will look like just another the sky is falling thread but the fact is we will only ever develop into a side that can just make the 8 and have not much more impact that that unles we can start to make serious inroads into some of the above issues.

Next week along and im going to add a few more

12. Players go to ground too easily. I have more chance off laying a tackle or gettinging a kick from my position in the stand than players lying in the ground.
13.Forwards get sucked too far up the ground.
14. Coach leaves players getting their pants handed to them on the same players forever.

I could go on and on but i think most will get the drift.

 

[stander]

Next week along and im going to add a few more

12. Players go to ground too easily. I have more chance off laying a tackle or gettinging a kick from my position in the stand than players lying in the ground.
13.Forwards get sucked too far up the ground.
14. Coach leaves players getting their pants handed to them on the same players forever.

I could go on and on but i think most will get the drift.

15. Alertness. When the laggard Laycock strolls down to the backline smiling to his fans, Fletch should tell him to wake up, just before Rocca sets up a block for Fraser to mark with metres around him, because it will happen again. A megaphone from the boundary might help.

 

[Smokin]

15. Alertness. When the laggard Laycock strolls down to the backline smiling to his fans, Fletch should tell him to wake up, just before Rocca sets up a block for Fraser to mark with metres around him, because it will happen again. A megaphone from the boundary might help.

lmao!

 

[M29]

Im not going to single out any players in particular and start a witch hunt but the same problems we have had for 5 or 6 years remain.

1. Poor skill level. Across the board our skills are simply not good enough.
2. We seem to have no idea on how to pass the footy. We continually kick the high and not to the advantage of our own players.
3.Our midfield doesnt know how to block or clear a path at clearances.
4. We continually have two or 3 players running to the same spot.
5. Despite having numerous drills at training that focus at running the ball down the lines we still stand around in groups on match day and handball to stationary targets.
6. We dont have enough hard runners in the midfield who also have some skill and class.
7. A lot of the time we are happy to play the "me" game . At stages we simply dont work hard enough. Players make short leads an when someone covers it they dont lead again as the feel they have done enough.
8. We zone off and let players get a 3 meter break on us too easily.
9. We refuse to shepphard. Rather than giving a handball and then blocking to get a player in the clear we try and position ourselves for another cheap stat.
10. We never make any serious attemps to guard the mark.
11. We seem to lack confiedence in attacking ball carriers. More often than not we simply try and coral players rather than pressuring them.

I know that this will look like just another the sky is falling thread but the fact is we will only ever develop into a side that can just make the 8 and have not much more impact that that unles we can start to make serious inroads into some of the above issues.

Interesting. I'd also noticed a trend not long ago, which has stopped now due to injury, when the younger blokes would ALWAYS give it off to Hird. It's something Footscray players would do a few years back, always look for West or Johnson despite the fact they had 3 men on them.

I'd be interested to know why after 15 rounds we just don't shepard.