Anthony Albanese - How long?

How long for Albo?


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Cooldude

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I’m not talking specifically about the program in schools, more so your general comments about religion.

It represents an attitude that is manifestly life denying, that proclaims ignorance to be a virtue - one that amounts to nothing and is, for a lack of a better word, disgusting.

It‘s pointless to bring up anything from history when you refuse to even understand it fully.

Oh stop with your victim mentality

I said this
There's no place for 2000 year old fanfiction garbage being shoved down the throats of kids in schools

I was only talking about its role in schools, but you had to extrapolate and start playing some imaginary victim because you cultural martyrs always think the world is out to get you

If you are as angry about the child abuse and financial con-jobs happening in the church as you are about some imaginary cultural slight, then maybe people would have a better view about religion, eh?

I love how you neatly swerved the references to religion's role in persecution and murder of loads of people in the past, too. Clearly "cultural genocide" is far more serious than actual genocide

Imagine making a comparison between Mein Kampf and the Bible and expecting to be taken seriously.

You are right, the bible has resulted in way more people dead than even Hitler managed. Unfair comparison
 
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SBD Gonzalez

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Kidding, right?
Yes, and this comment basically proves my point - that your idea of religion demonstrates a thorough and complete failure to grasp even the simple facts about history.



I’m not talking specifically about the program in schools, more so your general comments about religion.

It represents an attitude that is manifestly life denying, that proclaims ignorance to be a virtue - one that amounts to nothing and is, for a lack of a better word, disgusting.

It‘s pointless to bring up anything from history when you refuse to even understand it fully.



Because, obviously, that’s what I’m talking about. I’m saying that you are ignorant about history, and that this a lot worse than you realise.
So many giant assumptions here it’s hard to know where to start.

Anyway, this is the Anthony Albanese thread.
 

Demonic Ascent

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Yes, and this comment basically proves my point - that your idea of religion demonstrates a thorough and complete failure to grasp even the simple facts about history.
I understand history well enough, including the fact religion should be consigned to it.

Definitely shouldn't be brainwashing our kids with this utter garbage in school and especially not in counselling type programs. Teach them why religion was created but don't indoctrinate then into religious dogma.
 

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jatz14

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But to ask someone to place such a conviction in a box is a bit like requiring someone to forget where they come from. Religion is not something that can be banned from the public sphere - to do so is to hold an opposition to it, rather than a neutrality that facilitates peaceful coexistence.

And this is what I mean about history - study of our past shows why it has the place it does (or did).



Imagine making a comparison between Mein Kampf and the Bible and expecting to be taken seriously.
Religious education should be compulsory in schools, it just shouldn't be the religion of the parents.

We need an educated population with a diversified world view So, if your from a Muslim family, you can get a religious education, in anything except Islam, ditto Christians, Buddhists etc.

Religious people should be happy, the entire population gets the moral grounding of a faith based education, and get popped out of their bubbles as well Win, Win.
 

Saint

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But to ask someone to place such a conviction in a box is a bit like requiring someone to forget where they come from. Religion is not something that can be banned from the public sphere - to do so is to hold an opposition to it, rather than a neutrality that facilitates peaceful coexistence.

And this is what I mean about history - study of our past shows why it has the place it does (or did).



Imagine making a comparison between Mein Kampf and the Bible and expecting to be taken seriously.
There's 10x more murder, aggression and cruelty in the Bible than there is in Mein Kampf. Mein Kampf hates on about 1/10th the number of races as the Bible does. (both of them too many).

The fact bible readers are blind to this is very telling. If you read Mein Kampf through the same set of rose coloured glasses and ignored the parts about race and hate, they do really want to create a better society.

There are Neo Nazis in society too, but we don't let their kids take Mein Kampf to school and have it taught as an alternative ideology.

It's an extreme example, but it still works.

Teaching a class of half believers and non-believers is going to lead to division, let alone diametrically opposed views. They should leave such divisive things out of school. You can't teach half a class that the other half in the same room is going to hell because they don't believe the fairy tales right in front of their face.

But I agree you can't ignore it altogether, imagine trying to describe the Wars across Europe in the enlightenment or why everyone fights over Jerusalem without explaining religion. (It's possible, because most of it is power-grabbing anyway).
 

CM9000

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Oh stop with your victim mentality

I said this


I was only talking about its role in schools, but you had to extrapolate and start playing some imaginary victim because you cultural martyrs always think the world is out to get you

If you are as angry about the child abuse and financial con-jobs happening in the church as you are about some imaginary cultural slight, then maybe people would have a better view about religion, eh?

I love how you neatly swerved the references to religion's role in persecution and murder of loads of people in the past, too. Clearly "cultural genocide" is far more serious than actual genocide



You are right, the bible has resulted in way more people dead than even Hitler managed. Unfair comparison

Hmmm, interesting. I didn’t actually say a lot of those assertions you’re making, but okay.

To clarify, I’m saying that calling the Bible “2000 year old fanfiction garbage“, which I highlighted in bold, is an instance of an overall approach to history and culture that is destructive. As I said in the first reply, I’m making a statement about your general comments about religion.

The core problem with your viewpoint is that it assumes a caricatured version of religion as the truth; that because of the events such as the publication of On the Origin of the Species and other similar developments, it invalidates a work that stands not only as the source of an entire religion, but as a peice of literature and history in its own right.

Your idea of Christianity and Islam ignores 2000 years of history and movement. And quoting genocides, cultural destruction and whatnot (without providing specific examples, mind you) just shows this very fact - because you’re ignoring all the profound and wonderful things that Christianity and Islam have contributed.

Yes, Christianity has been involved in atrocities, such as the 1492 expulsion of Jews from Spain, to name one example (here’s the text of the edict from the monarchy itself: The Edict of Expulsion of the Jews - 1492 Spain), but it has also been essential for the world you currently see today, for example, in the fact that Christian monasteries preserved ancient knowledge and history.

Unfortunately I cannot continue this productive discussion, as I’m quite busy. I’m going to end it here.

I understand history well enough, including the fact religion should be consigned to it.

Definitely shouldn't be brainwashing our kids with this utter garbage in school and especially not in counselling type programs. Teach them why religion was created but don't indoctrinate then into religious dogma.

Unfortunately, ignorance is not a virtue. If you truly knew anything about history, you would actually understand that religion, like philosophy, history, art, natural philosophy, or any other sphere of human knowledge that is 200 years old, is far more complicated then the caricature you think it is.

But, unfortunately, it seems you would prefer to remain within this surface level understanding.

There's 10x more murder, aggression and cruelty in the Bible than there is in Mein Kampf. Mein Kampf hates on about 1/10th the number of races as the Bible does. (both of them too many).

The fact bible readers are blind to this is very telling. If you read Mein Kampf through the same set of rose coloured glasses and ignored the parts about race and hate, they do really want to create a better society.

There are Neo Nazis in society too, but we don't let their kids take Mein Kampf to school and have it taught as an alternative ideology.

It's an extreme example, but it still works.

Teaching a class of half believers and non-believers is going to lead to division, let alone diametrically opposed views. They should leave such divisive things out of school. You can't teach half a class that the other half in the same room is going to hell because they don't believe the fairy tales right in front of their face.

But I agree you can't ignore it altogether, imagine trying to describe the Wars across Europe in the enlightenment or why everyone fights over Jerusalem without explaining religion. (It's possible, because most of it is power-grabbing anyway).

Are you, in all seriousness, actually stating that the Bible is worse than Mein Kampf? You’re honestly making a comparison between teaching students about religion and indoctrination into Nazism?! I wonder what would happen if you said that to anyone in real life, but I think you would never do that. How can we have a rational discussion if you hold such hatred for religion?

That is extremist, my friend. That is a dangerous approach to anything.

Anyway, I’m done.
 

Ghost Patrol

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But to ask someone to place such a conviction in a box is a bit like requiring someone to forget where they come from. Religion is not something that can be banned from the public sphere - to do so is to hold an opposition to it, rather than a neutrality that facilitates peaceful coexistence.

And this is what I mean about history - study of our past shows why it has the place it does (or did).



Imagine making a comparison between Mein Kampf and the Bible and expecting to be taken seriously.

Non fiction vs fiction can be compared quite easily
 

Cooldude

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Hmmm, interesting. I didn’t actually say a lot of those assertions you’re making, but okay.

To clarify, I’m saying that calling the Bible “2000 year old fanfiction garbage“, which I highlighted in bold, is an instance of an overall approach to history and culture that is destructive. As I said in the first reply, I’m making a statement about your general comments about religion.

The core problem with your viewpoint is that it assumes a caricatured version of religion as the truth; that because of the events such as the publication of On the Origin of the Species and other similar developments, it invalidates a work that stands not only as the source of an entire religion, but as a peice of literature and history in its own right.

Your idea of Christianity and Islam ignores 2000 years of history and movement. And quoting genocides, cultural destruction and whatnot (without providing specific examples, mind you) just shows this very fact - because you’re ignoring all the profound and wonderful things that Christianity and Islam have contributed.

Yes, Christianity has been involved in atrocities, such as the 1492 expulsion of Jews from Spain, to name one example (here’s the text of the edict from the monarchy itself: The Edict of Expulsion of the Jews - 1492 Spain), but it has also been essential for the world you currently see today, for example, in the fact that Christian monasteries preserved ancient knowledge and history.

Unfortunately I cannot continue this productive discussion, as I’m quite busy. I’m going to end it here.

Boring TLDR diatribe, essentially all you wanted to say was, "ignore all the genocide religion perpetrated because it also did some good", typical apologist viewpoints that are immoral and make zero sense

No amount of good can whitewash the systematic destruction religious organisations has brought to many countries, trying to bargain and leverage it away is disgusting

By your own logic, if genocide and atrocities can be leveraged away by "other good", then taking religion out of school and society is also fine, in order to curb religious indoctrination, child abuse and financial improprieties? I guess actual genocide can be rationalized away in your logic but somehow "cultural genocide" is non-negotiable for some odd reason?
 
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Crankyhawk

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But to ask someone to place such a conviction in a box is a bit like requiring someone to forget where they come from. Religion is not something that can be banned from the public sphere - to do so is to hold an opposition to it, rather than a neutrality that facilitates peaceful coexistence.

And this is what I mean about history - study of our past shows why it has the place it does (or it did)
The pushing of religious views onto the unwilling can and should be kept out of the public sphere. And laws to regulate religious opinions should exist so they do not contravene secular law
Secular should now be above religion
 

Saint

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Hmmm, interesting. I didn’t actually say a lot of those assertions you’re making, but okay.

To clarify, I’m saying that calling the Bible “2000 year old fanfiction garbage“, which I highlighted in bold, is an instance of an overall approach to history and culture that is destructive. As I said in the first reply, I’m making a statement about your general comments about religion.

The core problem with your viewpoint is that it assumes a caricatured version of religion as the truth; that because of the events such as the publication of On the Origin of the Species and other similar developments, it invalidates a work that stands not only as the source of an entire religion, but as a peice of literature and history in its own right.

Your idea of Christianity and Islam ignores 2000 years of history and movement. And quoting genocides, cultural destruction and whatnot (without providing specific examples, mind you) just shows this very fact - because you’re ignoring all the profound and wonderful things that Christianity and Islam have contributed.

Yes, Christianity has been involved in atrocities, such as the 1492 expulsion of Jews from Spain, to name one example (here’s the text of the edict from the monarchy itself: The Edict of Expulsion of the Jews - 1492 Spain), but it has also been essential for the world you currently see today, for example, in the fact that Christian monasteries preserved ancient knowledge and history.

Unfortunately I cannot continue this productive discussion, as I’m quite busy. I’m going to end it here.



Unfortunately, ignorance is not a virtue. If you truly knew anything about history, you would actually understand that religion, like philosophy, history, art, natural philosophy, or any other sphere of human knowledge that is 200 years old, is far more complicated then the caricature you think it is.

But, unfortunately, it seems you would prefer to remain within this surface level understanding.



Are you, in all seriousness, actually stating that the Bible is worse than Mein Kampf? You’re honestly making a comparison between teaching students about religion and indoctrination into Nazism?! I wonder what would happen if you said that to anyone in real life, but I think you would never do that. How can we have a rational discussion if you hold such hatred for religion?

That is extremist, my friend. That is a dangerous approach to anything.

Anyway, I’m done.
Your comparison between indoctrination into religion and indoctrination into nazism is a subjective one. They're both indoctrination into division based on nonsense.

You're just saying your indoctrination is the right one. Which is what the Nazis said. This is Godwin's law in action, but it's still apt.

I'm saying all indoctrination is wrong. Teaching to critically think is far more important and children shouldn't have their critical thinking skills hampered in one classroom which teaches them to suspend critical thinking if an old book or the purveyor of an old book tells them it's ok to do so. That's why religious people are more susceptible to things like nazism, because their ability to critically think was short-circuited at a young age.

Religions are part of history and that's the only class they should be taught. You can hardly say the bible is a decent piece of literature. There's a reason people fall asleep in church.

It shouldn't be in parliament and the ALP is right to keep it out of schools.
 

Baltimore Jack

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Yes, and this comment basically proves my point - that your idea of religion demonstrates a thorough and complete failure to grasp even the simple facts about history.



I’m not talking specifically about the program in schools, more so your general comments about religion.

It represents an attitude that is manifestly life denying, that proclaims ignorance to be a virtue - one that amounts to nothing and is, for a lack of a better word, disgusting.

It‘s pointless to bring up anything from history when you refuse to even understand it fully.



Because, obviously, that’s what I’m talking about. I’m saying that you are ignorant about history, and that this a lot worse than you realise.
Oh dear
 

Seeds

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Unemployment is 3.9% or whoever.

Demand for workers outstrips supply. Employers just whining as they have had it so good for so long and expected prices to increase and real wages to keep declining forever.
So lots of room for it to go up then.
 

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Seeds

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I understand history well enough, including the fact religion should be consigned to it.

Definitely shouldn't be brainwashing our kids with this utter garbage in school and especially not in counselling type programs. Teach them why religion was created but don't indoctrinate then into religious dogma.
Exactly
 

Seeds

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Religious education should be compulsory in schools, it just shouldn't be the religion of the parents.

We need an educated population with a diversified world view So, if your from a Muslim family, you can get a religious education, in anything except Islam, ditto Christians, Buddhists etc.

Religious people should be happy, the entire population gets the moral grounding of a faith based education, and get popped out of their bubbles as well Win, Win.
Thats not a win win, replacing one form of nonsense with another is not a win. Stop teaching nonsense full stop should be the goal.

the only thing kids should learn about religion is why it became so dominant through human culture despite being nonsense.
 

Saint

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Thats not a win win, replacing one form of nonsense with another is not a win. Stop teaching nonsense full stop should be the goal.

the only thing kids should learn about religion is why it became so dominant through human culture despite being nonsense.
Kids would be so much better off if they were taught how to spot a grifting religious leader rather than letting the grifters into the school to teach a class!

Can you imagine if Tupperware were allowed to run Home Economics?
 

Festerz

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Cutting the numbers of staffers available to independents from four down to one each is just petty and plain dumb from Albanese.

Greens also say they've been told their staff number will stay same as 2019, despite going from 10 MPs to 16- i.e. same staff over more offices, an effective cut.

What purpose does it serve other than to alienate the very people whose support you will need over the next 3 years?