Science/Environment Anti-vacc Crazies at it again. Post appropriate outrage ITT

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SaintsSeptember

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Either the government works out how to get more of the more effective Pfizer vaccine or herd immunity won’t be happening.

People unable to get the vaccines are probably enough on their own to prevent a big enough uptake of vaccinations.

I’m pro vaccinations but creating situations where people are denied being able to buy food etc because they don’t have a vaccine is not something I agree with at all. Don’t like the precedent it sets and don’t like the idea of your medical history being given to a supermarket or cafe.
So human rights are vitally important, unless you own a cafe , then the government should be able to tell who you can refuse to serve?
 

PP34

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So human rights are vitally important, unless you own a cafe , then the government should be able to tell who you can refuse to serve?
I highly doubt cafes etc will be implementing sh*t.

I’m against governments forcing businesses to do anything vaccine wise. If businesses want to bar people then they’re fine but I seriously doubt that’s going to happen.
 

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Northalives

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Not according to Tony Blakely the epidemiologist on the project, but what would he know?
I think social distancing and masks will still be be us for quite a while yet.
I didn't come on here to pick fights. I am here to inform the Big Footy community what the vaccines do and to try and calm the over exuberance surrounding the roll out of the vaccines. You are absolutely right in saying that social distancing and masks will still be with us for quite a while yet.

Germany, France, the Netherlands, Poland, Spain and other European countries will not be vaccinating the over 65's with the Astra Zeneca vaccine because there is a lack of data as to it's effectiveness upon that cohort. Italy and Belgium will only be vaccinating those under 55 with Astra Zeneca.

Unfortunately, we in Australia, will not get a choice of which vaccine we are given and the other salient point which seems to be overlooked, is that about 22% of our population will not be vaccinated at all. That 22% are those that are under sixteen who will not be vaccinated with the Pfizer vaccine and those that are under eighteen, will not be given the Astra Zeneca one. There is absolutely no doubt that those in that age group can contract and pass on the SARS-CoV-2 virus - one fifth of our population.

The Vaccinations are important and will make a difference to ******ing the spread of the virus by those who have it because it will, in many cases, significantly reduce the coughing and spluttering of those who have the disease and thereby, greatly reduce the pathogen's spread.

I am not an anti-vaccer in any shape or form but mine is a huge concern that those of us who do have more than an idea of what's going on because of our backgrounds and training and are preaching prudence instead of "gung-ho", are being lumped in with the anti-vaxx fools and therefore, well founded advice that we should all be more circumspect and not behave as if we have "won the war" against the SARS-CoV-2 virus, are being dismissed out of hand.

This was recently released by the Government's own Health Department but does not form any part of Scott Morrison's "narrative" as he goes around the country encouraging people to get vaccinated. He is the Prime Minister and he needs to be the voice of reason and not behave like some Southern Baptist Preacher espousing the "miracle" of the vaccine as if it is the be all and end all. It says in part: "We currently do not know how effective COVID-19 vaccines are at preventing spread of the virus. This means that SARS-CoV-2 could potentially still infect a vaccinated person. Even if they have no symptoms or only mild symptoms they could still pass it on to others. This is why it is important to continue other preventative measures like:
• physical distancing
• hand washing
• wearing a face mask

• COVID-19 testing and quarantine/isolation as required by your state/territory."

The Prime Minister is being negligent in not emphasising what the Government's own Health Department is urging people to do and this omission is breeding complacency and it can, and probably will, have dire consequences down the track.
 

dean33

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I didn't come on here to pick fights. I am here to inform the Big Footy community what the vaccines do and to try and calm the over exuberance surrounding the roll out of the vaccines. You are absolutely right in saying that social distancing and masks will still be with us for quite a while yet.

Germany, France, the Netherlands, Poland, Spain and other European countries will not be vaccinating the over 65's with the Astra Zeneca vaccine because there is a lack of data as to it's effectiveness upon that cohort. Italy and Belgium will only be vaccinating those under 55 with Astra Zeneca.

Unfortunately, we in Australia, will not get a choice of which vaccine we are given and the other salient point which seems to be overlooked, is that about 22% of our population will not be vaccinated at all. That 22% are those that are under sixteen who will not be vaccinated with the Pfizer vaccine and those that are under eighteen, will not be given the Astra Zeneca one. There is absolutely no doubt that those in that age group can contract and pass on the SARS-CoV-2 virus - one fifth of our population.

The Vaccinations are important and will make a difference to ******ing the spread of the virus by those who have it because it will, in many cases, significantly reduce the coughing and spluttering of those who have the disease and thereby, greatly reduce the pathogen's spread.

I am not an anti-vaccer in any shape or form but mine is a huge concern that those of us who do have more than an idea of what's going on because of our backgrounds and training and are preaching prudence instead of "gung-ho", are being lumped in with the anti-vaxx fools and therefore, well founded advice that we should all be more circumspect and not behave as if we have "won the war" against the SARS-CoV-2 virus, are being dismissed out of hand.

This was recently released by the Government's own Health Department but does not form any part of Scott Morrison's "narrative" as he goes around the country encouraging people to get vaccinated. He is the Prime Minister and he needs to be the voice of reason and not behave like some Southern Baptist Preacher espousing the "miracle" of the vaccine as if it is the be all and end all. It says in part: "We currently do not know how effective COVID-19 vaccines are at preventing spread of the virus. This means that SARS-CoV-2 could potentially still infect a vaccinated person. Even if they have no symptoms or only mild symptoms they could still pass it on to others. This is why it is important to continue other preventative measures like:
• physical distancing
• hand washing
• wearing a face mask

• COVID-19 testing and quarantine/isolation as required by your state/territory."

The Prime Minister is being negligent in not emphasising what the Government's own Health Department is urging people to do and this omission is breeding complacency and it can, and probably will, have dire consequences down the track.
Good post. Agree on scomo he is a fool, possibly the worst PM we’ve had including Abbott.
Seems like we’ve gone balls in(pardon the language) with astra Zeneca due to the fact we can produce here but from all reports the Pfizer vaccine seems to be more effective.
Interesting times ahead.
 

quotemokc

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Good post. Agree on scomo he is a fool, possibly the worst PM we’ve had including Abbott.
Seems like we’ve gone balls in(pardon the language) with astra Zeneca due to the fact we can produce here but from all reports the Pfizer vaccine seems to be more effective.
Interesting times ahead.
Lets wait until he gets ousted by his own party before labelling him the worst.

Turnbull and Rudd miles ahead of him in that regard.
 

medusala

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Either the government works out how to get more of the more effective Pfizer vaccine or herd immunity won’t be happening.
Early data from the UK suggests the AZ vaccine is working fine.

https://www.ft.com/content/20576254-422b-4545-91ab-20b4d005bbf3

According to the research, conducted by the universities of Edinburgh and Strathclyde and Public Health Scotland, the chance of hospitalisation from four to six weeks after vaccination was 85 per cent lower after receiving one shot of the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine and 94 per cent lower after one shot of the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine.
 

medusala

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Rally against the mandatory Covid vaccinations. Which don’t exist.
They probably will by the backdoor. A big argument is about to kick off in the UK over this. A substantial minority of front line health and social care workers are refusing to get vaccinated. Hospitals and nursing homes are major incubators of the virus so its vitally important that those staff get vaccinated.

Likely to be a big legal battle over whether they can be forced to have a jab or be sacked. That will also probably extend to other workplaces.

To cloud the issue further there is a dramatic difference in take up rates by ethnicity so the govt is going to have to tread very carefully.
 

Northalives

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Good post. Agree on scomo he is a fool, possibly the worst PM we’ve had including Abbott.
Seems like we’ve gone balls in(pardon the language) with astra Zeneca due to the fact we can produce here but from all reports the Pfizer vaccine seems to be more effective.
Interesting times ahead.
Interesting times ahead indeed.
 

Northalives

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Early data from the UK suggests the AZ vaccine is working fine.

https://www.ft.com/content/20576254-422b-4545-91ab-20b4d005bbf3

According to the research, conducted by the universities of Edinburgh and Strathclyde and Public Health Scotland, the chance of hospitalisation from four to six weeks after vaccination was 85 per cent lower after receiving one shot of the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine and 94 per cent lower after one shot of the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine.
According to research, the lockdowns are having far more of an impact in decreasing the incidence of Coronavirus in the UK than any vaccine.

You know those; lockdowns! The ones that you have been railing against since the off? The ones that the fool Johnson refused to countenance and has ended up costing many lives and destroying the English economy? The dick head finally put lockdowns in place and the infections have gone down and keep going down with the aid of the vaccines. If he doesn't get his head turned by bean counters and money men who want to make money now and he opens England up again before they get right on top of the virus and he goes around doing a Morrison telling everyone that Covid has been beaten, if he does the logical thing then Britain is at the start of a long, long road back.
 

medusala

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According to research, the lockdowns are having far more of an impact in decreasing the incidence of Coronavirus in the UK than any vaccine.

You know those; lockdowns! The ones that you have been railing against since the off?
a) no that simply isnt correct. Cases were falling before the current UK lockdown started. You are confusing correlation and causation.
b) vaccines have only just started.

60- 70% of all cases of the virus are caught in hospitals and nursing homes. Please explain how a lockdown affects that

Please also explain why there is very little statistical differences re deaths in those US states that locked down and those that didnt.

Please explain away study after study after study that has shown no correlation between NPIs and deaths.
 

Northalives

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a) no that simply isnt correct. Cases were falling before the current UK lockdown started. You are confusing correlation and causation.
b) vaccines have only just started.

60- 70% of all cases of the virus are caught in hospitals and nursing homes. Please explain how a lockdown affects that

Please also explain why there is very little statistical differences re deaths in those US states that locked down and those that didnt.

Please explain away study after study after study that has shown no correlation between NPIs and deaths.
The latest data coming out of the U.K. strongly suggests that it is the lockdowns that are responsible for the declining numbers of infections due to the near uniformity decline right across the age spectrum which would be very unlikely, given that the majority of the vaccinations have been targeted towards those in the older age bracket. One would reasonably assume that if the vaccines were indeed the main driver of the declining numbers of cases, then this would show up quite convincingly through bigger declines in the older age groups which is not the case.

As for the question you pose concerning the stats in the US, I stopped studying what was happening in the US quite some time ago due to the anarchic state of that country and the near complete breakdown of the rule of law. Lockdowns were not observed, not enforced; thier commander-in-chief agitated and promoted non compliance, state legislators were raided by armed thugs/militia, authorities were ordered to change the way they reported positive cases etc etc etc. They are the only reasons I can give for the little statistical differences, if indeed there were only little differences but I have no reason to doubt your representation regarding the stats.

If we look at the Australian experience with lockdowns, then there surely cannot be any argument as to the effectiveness of lockdown measures in halting the spread of the virus. What we did in this country is what has been done for about one hundred years when epidemics have arisen and not just in Australia, that is, we identified, separated and isolated. That must always be the first action but unfortunately, those proven methods/principles were ignored and that is the reason that the world finds itself in the dire situation it's in.
 

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Grin

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Most of the general population will be waiting quite while for any vaccination.
The Government is delusional if it thinks that General practice has the time a resources to role out 30 million odd vaccines.
As I understand it, the Feds are giving about $1.5 billion to public hospital etc to resource the initial rollout of the P vaccine to about 10% of the population, but providing very little for general practice and pharmacies to vaccinate the rest. According to their fantasy fairy world, they don't need to, the work force already exists in the community.
 

medusala

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The latest data coming out of the U.K. strongly suggests that it is the lockdowns that are responsible for the declining numbers of infections due to the near uniformity decline right across the age spectrum which would be very unlikely, given that the majority of the vaccinations have been targeted towards those in the older age bracket.
No no no. Once again you are confusing the basic concept of correlation vs causation. Falling numbers arent just in the UK, there is little correlation between NPIs and case numbers/ deaths. It really is VERY easy to understand for anyone who has studied even the most basic of statistics.



  • But this is the first time since the pandemic began where cases are falling in basically every region of the world at the same time. On a global level, virtually the only number that is rising is vaccine doses administered.
  • And in some places — south Asia for example — there's growing confidence that the worst of the pandemic may be over even before vaccines become widely available.



Again, it’s clear that the coronavirus is now in full retreat across the world. Many models predicted that the pandemic would continue to escalate or at least plateau after a particularly rough winter in the Northern Hemisphere, but that hasn’t happened. Especially with more contagious variants spreading, there’s every chance we may see more surges soon, but for now, the drop in new cases is welcome news indeed.

Scientists aren’t sure why, but it’s likely a combination of several factors: social distancing and mask-wearing having their effect, the changing of the seasons, and—potentially—enough people having immunity to slow the spread. Of course vaccines too are helping, although in many countries it’s likely too soon for them to have made a big splash.
 

Northalives

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No no no. Once again you are confusing the basic concept of correlation vs causation. Falling numbers arent just in the UK, there is little correlation between NPIs and case numbers/ deaths. It really is VERY easy to understand for anyone who has studied even the most basic of statistics.



  • But this is the first time since the pandemic began where cases are falling in basically every region of the world at the same time. On a global level, virtually the only number that is rising is vaccine doses administered.
  • And in some places — south Asia for example — there's growing confidence that the worst of the pandemic may be over even before vaccines become widely available.



Again, it’s clear that the coronavirus is now in full retreat across the world. Many models predicted that the pandemic would continue to escalate or at least plateau after a particularly rough winter in the Northern Hemisphere, but that hasn’t happened. Especially with more contagious variants spreading, there’s every chance we may see more surges soon, but for now, the drop in new cases is welcome news indeed.

Scientists aren’t sure why, but it’s likely a combination of several factors: social distancing and mask-wearing having their effect, the changing of the seasons, and—potentially—enough people having immunity to slow the spread. Of course vaccines too are helping, although in many countries it’s likely too soon for them to have made a big splash.
Falls in infections and deaths have coincide with lockdowns and severe restrictions on gatherings and movement by governments who have finally woken up to the fact that wishing that it would go away, didn't work!

The fact also is that the virus is mutating and there are new variants appearing. People should not feel that we are over the worst of it, indeed, if we look at the number of cases and deaths world wide, whilst there is a downturn, it is not real cause for optimism because it seems that all that is happening, is that the numbers have plateaued and I don't think that 400,000 new cases daily nor 10,000 deaths per day every day for the next however many weeks months is a good thing.

1Screen Shot 2021-02-24 at 9.54.57 pm.png
2Screen Shot 2021-02-24 at 9.55.10 pm.png
 

medusala

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Falls in infections and deaths have coincide with lockdowns and severe restrictions on gatherings and movement by governments who have finally woken up to the fact that wishing that it would go away, didn't work!
FFS. Coincides does not equal causation.

Once again for the SLOW learners numerous states like Florida in the US opened up and had very little difference in deaths compared to lock down sates.

You seem to be in DENIAL of easily verifiable FACTS.

BASIC STATISTICS.
 

medusala

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People have the right to work in a safe work place.
If you are under 60 without an underlying health condition you are more likely to die in a car crash.

It take a special sort of misologist (union member) to say that means the work place isnt safe. The only ones who can make that argument are health care workers.
 

Northalives

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FFS. Coincides does not equal causation.

Once again for the SLOW learners numerous states like Florida in the US opened up and had very little difference in deaths compared to lock down sates.

You seem to be in DENIAL of easily verifiable FACTS.

BASIC STATISTICS.
Medusala, go back to sleep. The only one in denial is you, the who has resisted the realities of this Coronavirus since the beginning and has come up with all manner of convoluted equations and explanations as to why we shouldn't give a toss about this pathogen and so what if millions die, it's a little price to pay for the continuation of economic activity. Donald and Scotty-from-marketing love your sort.
 

Grin

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If you are under 60 without an underlying health condition you are more likely to die in a car crash.

It take a special sort of misologist (union member) to say that means the work place isnt safe. The only ones who can make that argument are health care workers.
I'm not quite sure what the fu** you're talking about. I presume it's something along the lines of: "I have a completely irrational but quasi religious belief in the magic of free markets, therefore people have no right to a safe workplace".
Is that about right?
 

SaintsSeptember

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FFS. Coincides does not equal causation.

Once again for the SLOW learners numerous states like Florida in the US opened up and had very little difference in deaths compared to lock down sates.

You seem to be in DENIAL of easily verifiable FACTS.

BASIC STATISTICS.
AN easily VERIFIABLE fact is THAT if a PERSON with COVID doesn't come in CONTACT with another PERSON then they WONT spread it.
IF a lockdown causes that IT must work.

Who cares what happened when they had an ineffective lock down in an incompetent country.

Its really poor logic to suggest that , if you put bad brakes on a car , and it crashed, that brakes don't stop accidents.
 

Chief

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If you are under 60 without an underlying health condition you are more likely to die in a car crash.
It's not just about deaths. Many examples of long term damage. Multiple infections I believe can have some pretty horrible results.

It's not just about whether YOU survive unscathed. The people you pass it on to may not.

Public health not private health.
 

sorted

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Early data from the UK suggests the AZ vaccine is working fine.

https://www.ft.com/content/20576254-422b-4545-91ab-20b4d005bbf3

According to the research, conducted by the universities of Edinburgh and Strathclyde and Public Health Scotland, the chance of hospitalisation from four to six weeks after vaccination was 85 per cent lower after receiving one shot of the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine and 94 per cent lower after one shot of the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine.
One drawback of the trials on the vaccines was that there was very limited data on whether they prevent serious illness and death. The results from this large study on population rollout appear to be extremely promising.

However, we do need to be a little cautious about drawing conclusions. The study is only available in pre-print and has not been peer reviewed.

I wonder about a couple of things from their results. They found a 70% reduction in hospitalisation for the Astra-Zeneca vaccine for 7 to 13 days after the jab. This looks odd as it usually takes between 14 and 31 days to develop immunity. This suggests some bias has crept into their research.

Also, peak effectiveness was at 28-34 days (85%) then seemed to quickly tail off (64% after 42 days) - which may indicate the effect of the vaccine is short lasting.
 

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