Science/Environment Anti-vacc Crazies at it again. Post appropriate outrage ITT

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Chief

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https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infec...d-19-vaccination-case-surveillance-051121.pdf

In the peak fortnight of the outbreak to date (25 August to 7 September), the COVID-19 case rate among 2-dose vaccinated people was 49.5 per 100,000 while in unvaccinated people it was 561 per 100,000, a more than 10-fold difference. The rates of COVID-19 ICU admissions or deaths peaked in the fortnight 8 September to 21 September at 0.9 per 100,000 in 2-dose vaccinated people compared to 15.6 per 100,000 in unvaccinated people, a greater than 16-fold difference.
 

bourbons

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That is what may happen yes.
How workable is it be to quickly shift someone out of an ICU bed to make way for someone else, mate? Problematic logistically? Ethical considerations still apply there too I suppose.

Was thinking about it, I'm not down with charging unvaxxed but if hospitals do happen to reach ICU capacity it does kinda make sense that vaccinated get the beds. I see it as different from things like smoking/obesity related treatment as those things are generally not driving bed shortages.

Just unsure how it'd actually be implemented in practice.
 

Mofra

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How workable is it be to quickly shift someone out of an ICU bed to make way for someone else, mate? Problematic logistically? Ethical considerations still apply there too I suppose.

Was thinking about it, I'm not down with charging unvaxxed but if hospitals do happen to reach ICU capacity it does kinda make sense that vaccinated get the beds. I see it as different from things like smoking/obesity related treatment as those things are generally not driving bed shortages.

Just unsure how it'd actually be implemented in practice.
They don't just switch them out though - there are dedicated Covid and non-Covid ICU wards right now (at least at Royal Melbourne).
 

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FredLeDeux

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Yep, was thinking about the switching out of an unvaxxed covid patient for a vaxxed covid patient (if it came to that).
There may be an ethical argument for favouring vaccinated over unvaccinated when it comes to admissions (I'm not sure there is, but it is at least plausible).
But switching them out in this way just seems to me to be way over the other side of the line; and I doubt that hospitals would do it, in any case.
 

SaintsSeptember

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You can transmit covid19 even after being vaccinated. The benefit of everyone having the jabs is that less people will need an ICU bed, and hospital resources wont be overwhelmed.
You "can" transmit it.
But you are less likely to catch it.
You are less likely to spread it.
So overall it reduces the spread.

Its all statistics , what "can " happen is irrelevent.
 

SaintsSeptember

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How workable is it be to quickly shift someone out of an ICU bed to make way for someone else, mate? Problematic logistically? Ethical considerations still apply there too I suppose.

Was thinking about it, I'm not down with charging unvaxxed but if hospitals do happen to reach ICU capacity it does kinda make sense that vaccinated get the beds. I see it as different from things like smoking/obesity related treatment as those things are generally not driving bed shortages.

Just unsure how it'd actually be implemented in practice.
From what i've seen , an ICU bed is a bed on wheels like any other hospital bed.
What makes it special is the equipment around it, and the 1 on 1 full time nursing.

I'd suggest that it would be a bit unethical to pull off the monitoring equipment and shove it into the hallway.
 

bourbons

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There may be an ethical argument for favouring vaccinated over unvaccinated when it comes to admissions (I'm not sure there is, but it is at least plausible).
But switching them out in this way just seems to me to be way over the other side of the line; and I doubt that hospitals would do it, in any case.
From what i've seen , an ICU bed is a bed on wheels like any other hospital bed.
What makes it special is the equipment around it, and the 1 on 1 full time nursing.

I'd suggest that it would be a bit unethical to pull off the monitoring equipment and shove it into the hallway.
Yep, it does feel pretty icky. But then again so does charging some people but not others imo.
 

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From what i've seen , an ICU bed is a bed on wheels like any other hospital bed.
What makes it special is the equipment around it, and the 1 on 1 full time nursing.
Thats correct.

For anyone in WA the main reason McGowan is holding back the state longer than the rest of Australia is because the new ICU ward being built at RPH is not yet finished.

The catch 22 situation however, is that we dont have enough nurses that are ICU trained to man the beds, and despite the $6000 incentive or whatever it was for WA qualified nurses currently not employed to return to the workforce, we are still desperately short. The solution- to open borders and recruit overseas trained nurses to fill the void.

The other thing that would really help is to make it easier for international students currently in Australia to get employed. My ex-girlfriend showed me all the hoops she had to jump through and it was ridiculous. It is much easier for them to just get a job in Victoria or NSW than here. The only reason she stayed was shes made friends here and with no family allowed to fly in from her home country she valued her friends support.

TLDR, our capacity to treat covid19 patients in ICU isnt adequate yet to open borders.
 

SaintsSeptember

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Thats correct.

For anyone in WA the main reason McGowan is holding back the state longer than the rest of Australia is because the new ICU ward being built at RPH is not yet finished.

The catch 22 situation however, is that we dont have enough nurses that are ICU trained to man the beds, and despite the $6000 incentive or whatever it was for WA qualified nurses currently not employed to return to the workforce, we are still desperately short. The solution- to open borders and recruit overseas trained nurses to fill the void.

The other thing that would really help is to make it easier for international students currently in Australia to get employed. My ex-girlfriend showed me all the hoops she had to jump through and it was ridiculous. It is much easier for them to just get a job in Victoria or NSW than here. The only reason she stayed was shes made friends here and with no family allowed to fly in from her home country she valued her friends support.

TLDR, our capacity to treat covid19 patients in ICU isnt adequate yet to open borders.
Registered nurses are on our medium term shortage list , which means that Nurses from overseas have been able to get a work Visa in Australia without sponsorship since it was declared.
Do they have a different immegration/visa system in W.A?

Students can't ....because they are on a Student Visa.

It might be news to you that there is a world wide shortage of IC Nurses. Guess why?
 

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It might be news to you that there is a world wide shortage of IC Nurses. Guess why?
Mate i work at the hospital i mentioned in my post above. Im giving an insight into whats happening. I watched my ex struggle to get employment as a nurse after graduating here during the outbreak of the pandemic, simply because she was born in Nepal. If you're going to ask a condescending sarcastic question you can cram it.
 

Crankyhawk

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How workable is it be to quickly shift someone out of an ICU bed to make way for someone else, mate? Problematic logistically? Ethical considerations still apply there too I suppose.

Was thinking about it, I'm not down with charging unvaxxed but if hospitals do happen to reach ICU capacity it does kinda make sense that vaccinated get the beds. I see it as different from things like smoking/obesity related treatment as those things are generally not driving bed shortages.

Just unsure how it'd actually be implemented in practice.
So if they are ventilator dependent and you pull the tube most likely they will die of hypoxia - then family would attend, then bed cleaned etc; would be process of hours.
 

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Pie eyed

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Anyone who doesnt want the vaccine shouldn't be labelled selfish or anti-vax. Im pro-choice everything when it comes to your own body:

Euthansia- anyone fatally ill suffering terrible pain should be allowed to end their misery.
Abortion- anyone who has an accidental pregnancy, is raped, or discovers their foetus has diseases/abnormalities should be allowed to abort
Transition- feel like youre in the wrong body and would be mentally and emotionally better off changing gender, go for it.
Vaccines- dont want a jab in the arm for a specific vaccine for whatever reason, you shouldnt be forced to have it.

Personally i had my 2nd jab back in April. But the 3 people at my work that have decided against having it i dont harbour ill will towards them or think less of them. Their body, their choice.
Agree.
Like the cut of your jib.
I still think when working with the vulnerable, vaccinated should be the gold standard.
You don't need 100% vaccination for the desired effects.
The desired effects being a chance for an evolutionary immune response due to the vaccine to tackle the virus while the hospital system remains capable of handling the workload.

Now if a single government minister was capable of getting that across without a politicisation and a tainted agenda, we would be a better country.

But we are not an the Government are self entitled *******s.

Dig a hole Scomo. Then fill it.
 

FredLeDeux

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Mate i work at the hospital i mentioned in my post above. Im giving an insight into whats happening. I watched my ex struggle to get employment as a nurse after graduating here during the outbreak of the pandemic, simply because she was born in Nepal. If you're going to ask a condescending sarcastic question you can cram it.
Is that just a WA thing?
Because one of my nurses during my recent stay at the Austin (Vic) was a recent graduate born in Nepal.
 

SaintsSeptember

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Mate i work at the hospital i mentioned in my post above. Im giving an insight into whats happening. I watched my ex struggle to get employment as a nurse after graduating here during the outbreak of the pandemic, simply because she was born in Nepal. If you're going to ask a condescending sarcastic question you can cram it.
If her qualifications are recognised, she'd get work in Victoria or anywhere else Covid is running hot.
 

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Is that just a WA thing?
Because one of my nurses during my recent stay at the Austin (Vic) was a recent graduate born in Nepal.
I think so. She could easily move to Victoria and get a job. The requirements to get a nursing position in WA were a lot harder, expensive and time consuming. If she hadnt established a close circle of friends and been dating me at the time, she would have taken a job offer in Victoria. Maybe WA has relaxed things now that we are desperate for more nurses.
 

FredLeDeux

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I think so. She could easily move to Victoria and get a job. The requirements to get a nursing position in WA were a lot harder, expensive and time consuming. If she hadnt established a close circle of friends and been dating me at the time, she would have taken a job offer in Victoria. Maybe WA has relaxed things now that we are desperate for more nurses.
Yes, there doesn't seem to be any such restriction in Vic.
At least 50% of the nurses and trainees at the hospital and rehab centre appeared to be foreign-born - lots from South Asia, but everywhere from the US (ex-Army) to Israel, South Africa, Iran, China, Philippines, and even Tuvalu.
 

SaintsSeptember

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They are taking Enrolled nurses on 2 year ( i think ) Visa's due to short term shortage. ( not sure how they are meant to get here ).
Registered Nurses are on the medium term shortage list .

Ironically there is a 9 month wait to process applications for the short term shortage, while that of the medium term is 3 month.
Just stereotypical government stuff.

The difference between the short term, and medium term is that , prospective workers on the medium shortage list , who meet the criteria can come to Australia to look for work, while those on the short term list need to have a sponsor ( who will hold the job open 9 months :/ )

I don't know the ins and outs of meeting the requirements for the local qualifications.
 

Nickos66

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Healthcare is a human right even if you're a f***ing idiot. This could set a potentially very nasty precedent and one certain interest groups the world over would view with interest; who can you deny care to next that that might not being all they can for their own health? It's what you'd expect from a country trying to execute those with intellectual disabilities.
The kicker being, nobody chose to have an intellectual disability.

Charging an anti-vaccer for covid treatment in an otherwise free system is akin to charging cancer patients who smoked, car accident victims who were speeding or drunk. Obese heart attack victims. Drug overdoses victims of course.
This is a more accurate summation, IMO.
 

SaintsSeptember

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Cancer, heart attacks etc aren’t contagious.
As i understand it the hospital system in Singapore is user pay, similar to the USA.
Under pandemic conditions the Singaporeans introduced free treatment for Covid victims.
They have now amended it so that its "free treatment for Vaccinated covid victims " I see that as fair and reasonable.

What i don't agree with is the discussion that Australia should do the same. We literally can't since our hospital system was not like theirs in the first place.

I agree that we should do anything we can to encourage vaccination, but i don't agree that we can then make moral judgement on those requiring treatment.
 

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