Covid-19 Antivaxxers, extremism and the Coalition

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Gough

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Sep 29, 2006
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no

I said "it is no different to women getting pregnant, it is an inconvenience but one has to be reasonable and consider the legal implications if not "


now start again with your emotive cry but this time try and get the facts, context and the issue at hand correct
Cmon man, if you're going to call out people for being emotional those anti vaxxers are guided by pretty much that alone. Certainly they've never let facts get in the way of their arguments.
 

kranky al

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The word reasonable is important

Personally I advocate no medicare, rather a Pay-As-You-Go, for reckless or negligent behaviour. Have a car accident whilst drunk, you pay. Cop a disease and did not accept a free vaccination, you pay. Cop lung cancer and you smoke, you pay. Cop liver cancer and you drink, you pay.

For as much as I'm pro vax and got vaxxed within two days of being eligible; I also accept that others may not feel so comfortable accepting a vax that has not been provided approval other than emergency use. I also accept their are some that will not get vaxxed for any reason.


I feel there are better ways to encourage high vaccination rates without resorting to divisive politics, discrimination, unreasonable demands, breaches of privacy and breaches of medical in confidence.

In our work place where we do have offices and remote camps we are very much focused on safety which includes drugs, alcohol, vaccination and general safety. We get results through policies based on culture which requires positive investment and education.

Lowering ones standards to exile, termination of employment, discrimination and demonising is pathetic. I think many have lost sight we are attacking healthy people just because they don't share our beliefs.
Trouble is i see them piggy backing off us who are taking the vaxx.

And as mentioned there is no loser pays system in place for icu stays.
 

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Power Raid

TheBrownDog
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Trouble is i see them piggy backing off us who are taking the vaxx.

And as mentioned there is no loser pays system in place for icu stays.

I look at these people the same way as you.

However I have faith in the vaccine I have taken but accept I will catch covid here in Australia or overseas, from a vaccinated or unvaccinated person. Accepting this, I won't allow fear to drive me against others that haven't accepted their responsibility to be vaccinated as yet.

Government should pair back Family A, B and childcare rebates and add the medicare surcharge, for those that don't get vaccinated. This is a stick but doesn't stike at the heart of employment and what makes our society great.
 

Northalives

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Trouble is i see them piggy backing off us who are taking the vaxx.

And as mentioned there is no loser pays system in place for icu stays.
You know, I can't for the life of me not work out why our esteemed fourth estate hasn't asked Morrison the simple question when he arcs up about states and territories restricting unvaccinated Australians from participating in "normal" life to relax their rules: "Is it fair that 80% of the population that has done all the heavy lifting only to see the 20% who have screamed and kicked and refused to do their bit reap the benefits of those with a sense of civil responsibility who got vaccinated? What was the point of people getting vaccinated then if they are going to be exposed to those who aren't?"
 

Northalives

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Cafes are allowed to discriminate against vaccinated or unvaccinated people under existing laws relating to property and access

What is not appropriate is governments mandating vaccination or employers terminating employees unreasonably


Identifying the issue in a debate is important
Power Raid, mandatory vaccinations have been part of the landscape in Australia for aged care and hospital workers for years. The following link will take you to the Flinders University IMMUNISATION, STANDARD AND PRECAUTIONARY ADVISORY BOOKLET For Health Professional Students: https://students.flinders.edu.au/co...icine/immunisation-precautionary-advisory.pdf

The whole vaccinated/unvaccinated mandating malaise we find ourselves in is being milked for everything it's worth by unconscionable politicians for votes.

As Lambie said today; "if you want to work in aged care, you need to have a flu vaccine, and that rule has been in place before Covid19 was even a twinkle in a Chinese bat's eye for goodness sake!"

For those that haven't seen her speech going off her head at Hanson, Morrison's pimp, here it is: https://www.theguardian.com/austral...s-pauline-hansons-vaccine-discrimination-bill
 

HurleyHepsHird

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Harro59

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Firstly is their demand reasonable?

it is no different to women getting pregnant, it is an inconvenience but one has to be reasonable and consider the legal implications if not
I believe this is the tough part for employers at the moment. Some who do not have a double vaxx mandate find themselves with some issues when they have clients and sites that require the double vaxx.

As it said previously, they now can't do the job they were paid to do. Is it similar to a female staffer getting pregnant? Well I guess it's not but it also is because it depends on the type of work. That's certainly not black and white. Then again it's not....I'm not sure i follow where I'm going here.

Before an employer would look at terminating the employee based on the double vaxx requirement they would have to look at the possibility of them working at alternative sites that don't have the double vaxx requirement. Once this is exhausted the employer just has to make the decision on this. Then wait and see if it gets tested in court I guess.

At the moment here in SA SAWater which is still owned by the state government has a mandatory double vaxx requirement and this has been extended to all consultants and contractors and anyone needing to access there sites.

The 17th of Nov has passed and this is in effect and I know of a couple of lifers at the company who this is effecting but at the moment no word if it has been challenged yet.
 
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Schneebly11

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With clear US connections in these morons, where’s the condemnation of foreign agents at work?

Knowing some of these people, and how the far right content they consume is mostly American political content, then they’re probably under the impression that Australia is just a part of America and what happens there dictates what happened here.

For instance one far right dude at work who’d been brainwashed by all this far right crap was going on a rant just before the US election about Biden being a tool of globalists and the media not being fair to Trump who had done a “marvellous” job.

I asked why it was relevant to Australia and he responded that if Biden was elected he would destroy the US economy with his “communist” policies therefore the world would enter a depression, and hewed petrified as his kid’s futures would be stuffed etc

And with the current government’s obsession with the Australian military becoming one with the US military one couldn’t really blame the far right for believing Australia is just an appendage of the USA
 

Power Raid

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Cmon man, if you're going to call out people for being emotional those anti vaxxers are guided by pretty much that alone. Certainly they've never let facts get in the way of their arguments.

I agree and it is frustrating that some people attempt to be informed by memes (or forward memes) and other nonsense

However it is the job of health officials, the government, the media and each individual to work with the community to increase vaccination rates. There are many positive actions that can be taken before cementing division.
 

Gralin

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I agree and it is frustrating that some people attempt to be informed by memes (or forward memes) and other nonsense

However it is the job of health officials, the government, the media and each individual to work with the community to increase vaccination rates. There are many positive actions that can be taken before cementing division.
Maybe send a letter to Craig Kelly and everyone like him who is creating the division then, because it's not the vaccinated majority that are the problem here
 

SBD Gonzalez

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Kidding, right?
Knowing some of these people, and how the far right content they consume is mostly American political content, then they’re probably under the impression that Australia is just a part of America and what happens there dictates what happened here.

For instance one far right dude at work who’d been brainwashed by all this far right crap was going on a rant just before the US election about Biden being a tool of globalists and the media not being fair to Trump who had done a “marvellous” job.

I asked why it was relevant to Australia and he responded that if Biden was elected he would destroy the US economy with his “communist” policies therefore the world would enter a depression, and hewed petrified as his kid’s futures would be stuffed etc

And with the current government’s obsession with the Australian military becoming one with the US military one couldn’t really blame the far right for believing Australia is just an appendage of the USA
They always give themselves away when they start talking about “patriots”.

I’m pushing 60 and I’d barely heard that word used in Australia until Trump soiled the White House.
 

Power Raid

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Power Raid, mandatory vaccinations have been part of the landscape in Australia for aged care and hospital workers for years. The following link will take you to the Flinders University IMMUNISATION, STANDARD AND PRECAUTIONARY ADVISORY BOOKLET For Health Professional Students: https://students.flinders.edu.au/co...icine/immunisation-precautionary-advisory.pdf

The whole vaccinated/unvaccinated mandating malaise we find ourselves in is being milked for everything it's worth by unconscionable politicians for votes.

As Lambie said today; "if you want to work in aged care, you need to have a flu vaccine, and that rule has been in place before Covid19 was even a twinkle in a Chinese bat's eye for goodness sake!"

For those that haven't seen her speech going off her head at Hanson, Morrison's pimp, here it is: https://www.theguardian.com/austral...s-pauline-hansons-vaccine-discrimination-bill

great post.....thank you


I would suggest it is reasonable to mandate fully approved vaccinations (not just emergency use) in aged care and other segments of health care. It should be noted there is no evidence mandating flu vaccines results in better health outcomes for patients as the flu vax doesn't prevent one from getting the flu it reduces the symptoms. As a result people turn up to work sick and spread the disease. However it does reduce absenteeism.

Blanket mandates over entire industries where it is beyond reasonable, is unhelpful, divisive and likely unlawful. I'm sure one could come up with a debate for why police and FIFO workers need it but until the provisional "emergency use only" is cleared, that aspect of the decision tree isn't reached.

and yes politicians have been unhelpful with their politics rather than a calm "let's get vaccinated". I don't expect much from any politician but we should not do Australian politics a disservice and reference anything Lambie and Hanson are saying or doing.
 

CD Xbow

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great post.....thank you


I would suggest it is reasonable to mandate fully approved vaccinations (not just emergency use) in aged care and other segments of health care. It should be noted there is no evidence mandating flu vaccines results in better health outcomes for patients as the flu vax doesn't prevent one from getting the flu it reduces the symptoms. As a result people turn up to work sick and spread the disease. However it does reduce absenteeism.

Blanket mandates over entire industries where it is beyond reasonable, is unhelpful, divisive and likely unlawful. I'm sure one could come up with a debate for why police and FIFO workers need it but until the provisional "emergency use only" is cleared, that aspect of the decision tree isn't reached.

and yes politicians have been unhelpful with their politics rather than a calm "let's get vaccinated". I don't expect much from any politician but we should not do Australian politics a disservice and reference anything Lambie and Hanson are saying or doing.
Please don't lump Lambie with Hanson. Lambie has been very supportive of vaccination efforts. Senator Moron Roberts recently leaked her private number to the public and she has been inundated by threats by moron anitvaxers. That's our tax dollars at work paying for Roberts idiocy. He is the best argument, dare I say strong 'empirical' evidence we need to decrease our number of politicians significantly because they are doing harm.
 

Power Raid

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I believe this is the tough part for employers at the moment. Some who do not have a double vaxx mandate find themselves with some issues when they have clients and sites that require the double vaxx.

On one of our sites, if we do not achieve substantial commencement by the end of the year we lose our titles. The risk here for us is $300m to $500m and every workers job.

This makes the get vaxxed early debate easy.

However in all the other entities it was about investing in the right culture, so we achieved 100% vax early and had staff openly talking about their vax status or intentions. Having a culture of trust and mutual responsibility and a healthy performance scheme meant we never had to lower ourselves to divisive or threatening discussions.

If employers face themselves with any other situation, they have failed to build the right culture.

As it said previously, they now can't do the job they were paid to do. Is it similar to a female staffer getting pregnant? Well I guess it's not but it also is because it depends on the type of work. That's certainly not black and white. Then again it's not....I'm not sure i follow where I'm going here.

of course one has to discriminate against race, religion, colour of skin, pregnancy and every other type of discrimination, enshrined in law or not, from time to time. Whether that discrimination is reasonable, determines whether there has been a breach of the law.

I'm sure you could think of loads of examples where you may "discriminate" reasonably. For example, I would not send a pregnant womanto a exploration site where she would be exposed to heat, dust, kidnap risk etc (as she may consent but her child who may be born whilst captive does not). I wouldn't send someone with strong religious beliefs to an area controlled by Abu Sayyaff and I wouldn't send a dark skinned person to Asia where they would have to stay under the roof of a person who considers them dirty (yes, all of these situations has been encountered and the discrimination reasonable).

Same said with vax discrimination and the need to be reasonable in context to Australia's laws and international obligations to the UN declaration of human rights.

Before an employer would look at terminating the employee based on the double vaxx requirement they would have to look at the possibility of them working at alternative sites that don't have the double vaxx requirement. Once this is exhausted the employer just has to make the decision on this. Then wait and see if it gets tested in court I guess.

agree but it seems artificial and over the top external excuses, such as my client demands double vax. This has a lawyers christmas bonus all over as it has so many considerations (contract law and unreasonable attempts to frustrate or terminate a contract, employment law and broader concepts).

At the moment here in SA SAWater which is still owned by the state government has a mandatory double vaxx requirement and this has been extended to all consultants and contractors and anyone needing to access there sites.

The 17th of Nov has passed and this is in effect and I know of a couple of lifers at the company who this is effecting but at the moment no word if it has been challenged yet.
This is probably an example of over reach and why having strong ethical unions are important. Although I believe everyone should be vaxxed by now, I don't want to live in a society where we have sh*t employers like this.
 

Cyg1992

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McGowan may have to relocate after 2 people arrested for threatening to behead him snd his family.


Silence from the Libs.

Imagine the media reaction if someone of Arabic background had done this to say, frydenberg? It'd be news with half hourly updates for at least a week and Dutton would be frothing at the mouth daily in parliament.

It's genuinely only a matter of time until we have a terrorist attack here from a Brenton Tarrant type character who will have consumed all the American style right wing rubbish, just as Tarrant did.

Will be really curious to see how conservative politicians, their voters and the commercial media try to wash their hands of all the blood after the fact.
 

kranky al

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Please don't lump Lambie with Hanson. Lambie has been very supportive of vaccination efforts. Senator Moron Roberts recently leaked her private number to the public and she has been inundated by threats by moron anitvaxers. That's our tax dollars at work paying for Roberts idiocy. He is the best argument, dare I say strong 'empirical' evidence we need to decrease our number of politicians significantly because they are doing harm.
Hes actually the best argument against mandatory vaccination there is.

Hes an excellent argument for selective witholding of vaccines.
 

Saint

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The LNP's pandering to the Anti-vaxxers (including some MPs/Senators being anti-vaxxers will lose them swathes of voters. It's the same mistake the ALP often make pandering to the Greens' latest policy fart.

Morrison isn't clever enough to walk both sides of the street, but thinks he is. The Murdoch/Costello media are going to try their hardest, but even they will blame Morrison in the end. THe only question is if it's before or after the election. (I'm tipping after).
 

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