Covid-19 Antivaxxers, extremism and the Coalition

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Boronia67

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Aug 16, 2021
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You think socialism is bad do you?
Hope that isn't your public school education.
Or something you read in a book from a library.
Or heard at a bulk billing doctors office, or from a firefighter putting out a house fire.

Or read on a sign on a public road, or bus, or train.

That's not socialism. In a capitalist society the government is supposed to fill in the gaps left by the private sector.

Socialism is were the state controls the means of production and owns all property.

 

Romeoh1

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Apr 27, 2021
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Big difference between getting vaccinated and being supportive of the world's longest lockdown.

Have you spoken to 6.6 million Victorians about this or any other matter ?
Nope, but unlike you, I didn’t make any ludicrous claims.
90% is a very high vaccination rate. Andrews is still getting pretty high approval ratings.
So you seem to be just making stuff up.
 

Nuggs Bunny

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Boronia67

Debutant
Aug 16, 2021
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Nope, but unlike you, I didn’t make any ludicrous claims.
90% is a very high vaccination rate. Andrews is still getting pretty high approval ratings.
So you seem to be just making stuff up.

Ludicrous claims like most people at a protest about government having too much control weren't actually protesting about government having too much control ?

Have you checked with 6.6 million Victorians to confirm 90% have been vaccinated and Andrew's approval rating ?

You are deeply confused
 

Gralin

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Apr 8, 2010
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Crankyhawk

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oh and private health insurance is more appropriate than medicare for the situation of negligent and reckless behaviour. With the right of medicare, should come responsibility. If you don't accept a "free" and "freely available" vax, then one should cover the costs associated with that disease.

It is no big leap from the concept that medicare covers you in Oz (and limited places overseas) but private health is required if you engage in overseas holidays.
private heath is a rort and when it goes wrong they ship the patients to public to fix.
 

Crankyhawk

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Please don't lump Lambie with Hanson. Lambie has been very supportive of vaccination efforts. Senator Moron Roberts recently leaked her private number to the public and she has been inundated by threats by moron anitvaxers. That's our tax dollars at work paying for Roberts idiocy. He is the best argument, dare I say strong 'empirical' evidence we need to decrease our number of politicians significantly because they are doing harm.
Moron Roberts mother should have swallowed.

There I said it.
 

Gralin

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oh and private health insurance is more appropriate than medicare for the situation of negligent and reckless behaviour. With the right of medicare, should come responsibility. If you don't accept a "free" and "freely available" vax, then one should cover the costs associated with that disease.

It is no big leap from the concept that medicare covers you in Oz (and limited places overseas) but private health is required if you engage in overseas holidays.
I was referring to this thought bubble from you, the one where you advocate no medicare for a range of behaviours

The word reasonable is important

Personally I advocate no medicare, rather a Pay-As-You-Go, for reckless or negligent behaviour. Have a car accident whilst drunk, you pay. Cop a disease and did not accept a free vaccination, you pay. Cop lung cancer and you smoke, you pay. Cop liver cancer and you drink, you pay.

For as much as I'm pro vax and got vaxxed within two days of being eligible; I also accept that others may not feel so comfortable accepting a vax that has not been provided approval other than emergency use. I also accept there are some that will not get vaxxed for any reason.


I feel there are better ways to encourage high vaccination rates without resorting to divisive politics, discrimination, unreasonable demands, breaches of privacy and breaches of medical in confidence.

In our work place where we do have offices and remote camps we are very much focused on safety which includes drugs, alcohol, vaccination and general safety. We get results through policies based on culture which requires positive investment and education.

Lowering ones standards to exile, termination of employment, discrimination and demonising is pathetic. I think many have lost sight we are attacking healthy people just because they don't share our beliefs.
 

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TheBrownDog
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private heath is a rort and when it goes wrong they ship the patients to public to fix.

it seems the most important and emergency treatments are still done in the public hospitals

private provides better rooms and food for recovery and shorter waiting times for the less important treatments


a lot isn't working in our health system and not covering dental and specialists under medicare and not covering specialists under private is a complete failure in the system
 

Crankyhawk

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it seems the most important and emergency treatments are still done in the public hospitals

private provides better rooms and food for recovery and shorter waiting times for the less important treatments


a lot isn't working in our health system and not covering dental and specialists under medicare and not covering specialists under private is a complete failure in the system
not covering private ED attendance in private health as well
 

kranky al

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That's not socialism. In a capitalist society the government is supposed to fill in the gaps left by the private sector.

Socialism is were the state controls the means of production and owns all property.

Link an article about communism into a discussion about socialism.

*also flings his own faeces around the room and jibbers, screeches and swings from the rafters
 

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TheBrownDog
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The very moment the “freedom” crew accept some responsibility for their freedom, im happy to acquiesce.

Such as :

Personally accepting the expense of icu treatment if they require it for covid.

Understanding that given a triage situation, they are deprioritised when the choice is between them and an immunised person for an icu / ecmo position thats covid related.

Right now they want to spruik their never ending bs with no concomitant responsibilities or consequences.

I was referring to this thought bubble from you, the one where you advocate no medicare for a range of behaviours

I would support kranky al suggestion of "responsibility" with medicare as we have with every other insurance and concept in life.

I'm on record suggestion medicare cards should be swiped every time one makes a purchase of alcohol, cigarettes and fast food. Given these are associated with heart disease, high blood pressure, cancer and diabetes; perhaps this debate is more relevant than ever. Given it is these diseases turn covid from an issue to a big issue, for those that catch it.
 

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Gralin

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I would support kranky al suggestion of "responsibility" with medicare as we have with every other insurance and concept in life.

I'm on record suggestion medicare cards should be swiped every time one makes a purchase of alcohol, cigarettes and fast food. Given these are associated with heart disease, high blood pressure, cancer and diabetes; perhaps this debate is more relevant than ever. Given it is these diseases turn covid from an issue to a big issue, for those that catch it.
That is f’ed
Medicare is not insurance
You're making public health a moral judgement, super dangerous but im sure Morrison would love it
 

Harro59

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May 14, 2013
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On one of our sites, if we do not achieve substantial commencement by the end of the year we lose our titles. The risk here for us is $300m to $500m and every workers job.

This makes the get vaxxed early debate easy.

However in all the other entities it was about investing in the right culture, so we achieved 100% vax early and had staff openly talking about their vax status or intentions. Having a culture of trust and mutual responsibility and a healthy performance scheme meant we never had to lower ourselves to divisive or threatening discussions.

If employers face themselves with any other situation, they have failed to build the right culture.



of course one has to discriminate against race, religion, colour of skin, pregnancy and every other type of discrimination, enshrined in law or not, from time to time. Whether that discrimination is reasonable, determines whether there has been a breach of the law.

I'm sure you could think of loads of examples where you may "discriminate" reasonably. For example, I would not send a pregnant womanto a exploration site where she would be exposed to heat, dust, kidnap risk etc (as she may consent but her child who may be born whilst captive does not). I wouldn't send someone with strong religious beliefs to an area controlled by Abu Sayyaff and I wouldn't send a dark skinned person to Asia where they would have to stay under the roof of a person who considers them dirty (yes, all of these situations has been encountered and the discrimination reasonable).

Same said with vax discrimination and the need to be reasonable in context to Australia's laws and international obligations to the UN declaration of human rights.



agree but it seems artificial and over the top external excuses, such as my client demands double vax. This has a lawyers christmas bonus all over as it has so many considerations (contract law and unreasonable attempts to frustrate or terminate a contract, employment law and broader concepts).


This is probably an example of over reach and why having strong ethical unions are important. Although I believe everyone should be vaxxed by now, I don't want to live in a society where we have sh*t employers like this.
Yes well if your going to lose your jobs and tones of work then the decision about getting vaxxed becomes clear.

Some of the other points, lawyers and Christmas bonus'. Yep they are going to be busy soon. Just watching some employers at the moment aren't terminating in vaxxed employees but allowing them to take leave. At some point this will come to a head and the can can't be kicked down the road.

SA Water are definitely over reaching and this almost seems like a strange decision from then. They are actually a decent employer, not a terrible place to work at but it is shifting somewhat.
 

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TheBrownDog
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That is f’ed
Medicare is not insurance

Oh Gralin please.....

Medicare

Medicare is Australia’s universal health insurance scheme. It guarantees all Australians (and some overseas visitors) access to a wide range of health and hospital services at low or no cost. Find out what we’re doing to improve Medicare for all Australians.


You're making public health a moral judgement, super dangerous but im sure Morrison would love it

AND WRONG AGAIN

public health should not a moral judgement but it is OK to ban healthy people from "freedom of movement", "freedom of association" and terminating their employment because they haven't had a vax? That sounds like a moral judgement and discrimination.


I'm suggesting public health should be based on science and education. In the case of buying alcohol, cigarettes and fast food, swiping ones medicare card achieves:
1) people will think twice as they link known with health responsibilities with having to pull out their health card (thus education reinforcement)
2) people's behaviours change if they think they are being monitored
3) the medical and science professions will have accurate data for decision making

for extreme cases, which already exist today, where a decision of allocation of resources goes.......ie who gets the kidney on offer......informed decisions can be made. The only extension I would suggest appropriate is negligence which is a legal not moral judgement. Negligence should come at a price and that price should be an invoice.
 

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TheBrownDog
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Universal healthcare should be non-negotiable for any decent society.

I believe we should have a universal health care system but a statement like this is meaningless. As we already know medicare does not cover dentistry, specialists and other important services. We also accept there is a range of insurances required outside of medicare for a variety of reasons such as travel, work place accidents etc; so the concept of medicare being universal is not as universal as people think.

We also have triage and the allocation of resources that determines who gets and who doesn't get services under medicare.

What I am proposing is "prevention" is better than cure. With swiping medicare cards changing risk behaviours and lifestyle choices through education and awareness.

An example raised by kranky al was ICU for unvaxxed patients. Should they get this service for free? or should they be billed and those additional resources used to improve the health system?

The same argument goes for an alcoholic and a kidney transplant, especially if their are two candidates. Unfortunately brutal choices need to be made in triage and I'd suggest swiping medicare cards for alcohol, cigarettes and fast food will assist medical practitioners and scientists in making informed decisions.
 

Gough

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Sep 29, 2006
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I believe we should have a universal health care system but a statement like this is meaningless. As we already know medicare does not cover dentistry, specialists and other important services. We also accept there is a range of insurances required outside of medicare for a variety of reasons such as travel, work place accidents etc; so the concept of medicare being universal is not as universal as people think.

We also have triage and the allocation of resources that determines who gets and who doesn't get services under medicare.

What I am proposing is "prevention" is better than cure. With swiping medicare cards changing risk behaviours and lifestyle choices through education and awareness.

An example raised by kranky al was ICU for unvaxxed patients. Should they get this service for free? or should they be billed and those additional resources used to improve the health system?

The same argument goes for an alcoholic and a kidney transplant, especially if their are two candidates. Unfortunately brutal choices need to be made in triage and I'd suggest swiping medicare cards for alcohol, cigarettes and fast food will assist medical practitioners and scientists in making informed decisions.
Do you swipe your Medicare card before running onto the footy field in the C Grade on a Saturday afternoon lest you end up with an avoidable injury?
 

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TheBrownDog
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Do you swipe your Medicare card before running onto the footy field in the C Grade on a Saturday afternoon lest you end up with an avoidable injury?

I personally would suggest the opposite. Swiping a medicare card to demonstrate ones commitment to a healthy lifestyle, which includes exercise, would be wonderful. Unfortunately it is difficult to support other healthy activities such as walking, running, swimming and other unorganised activities.

Perhaps consider facts







and this article suggests this is a behaviour issue rather than health issue

 
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Taylor

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Jul 16, 2009
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This talk of a social credit score system is gross.

I think that will lead to people who engage in activity deemed, or by statistical data shown to be, higher risk of contracting serious disease or injury being treated as second class citizens or otherwise diminished in their full enjoyment of life in Australia.

And governments aren't nuanced, they are stupid and slow moving, big dumb cogs. They will look at broad statistics to make their judgments. The thresholds will be so damaging.
 

kranky al

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Do you swipe your Medicare card before running onto the footy field in the C Grade on a Saturday afternoon lest you end up with an avoidable injury?
No because playing sports as an overall thing is a positively healthy activity.

What positive health benefits does smoking bring to the table?
 

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