Covid-19 Antivaxxers, extremism and the Coalition

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kranky al

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I believe we should have a universal health care system but a statement like this is meaningless. As we already know medicare does not cover dentistry, specialists and other important services. We also accept there is a range of insurances required outside of medicare for a variety of reasons such as travel, work place accidents etc; so the concept of medicare being universal is not as universal as people think.

We also have triage and the allocation of resources that determines who gets and who doesn't get services under medicare.

What I am proposing is "prevention" is better than cure. With swiping medicare cards changing risk behaviours and lifestyle choices through education and awareness.

An example raised by kranky al was ICU for unvaxxed patients. Should they get this service for free? or should they be billed and those additional resources used to improve the health system?

The same argument goes for an alcoholic and a kidney transplant, especially if their are two candidates. Unfortunately brutal choices need to be made in triage and I'd suggest swiping medicare cards for alcohol, cigarettes and fast food will assist medical practitioners and scientists in making informed decisions.
One thing to remember is that smokers and drinkers already pay huge extra amounts of tax. Im not talking about charging them more im on about charging antivaxxers in line with the extra expense they add to the health budget.
 

Power Raid

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One thing to remember is that smokers and drinkers already pay huge extra amounts of tax. Im not talking about charging them more im on about charging antivaxxers in line with the extra expense they add to the health budget.

please do some basic research before you post please
 

SBD Gonzalez

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Kidding, right?

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Gough

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UK article, and specifically about mask refusal rather than anti-vax, but similar themes.

Yep.
Yet somehow there does seem to be a large intersection between the Venn diagram sets “People who bang on endlessly about WW2” and “People who cannot cope with having to take a relatively minor public health measure for the greater good”.
F***ing babies.
 

pugsville

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public health should not a moral judgement but it is OK to ban healthy people from "freedom of movement", "freedom of association" and terminating their employment because they haven't had a vax? That sounds like a moral judgement and discrimination.

Sensible public health measures based on science in the midst of pandemic,.

You don't get to work as a surgeon if you won't wash your hands.
 

SaintsSeptember

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.
UK article, and specifically about mask refusal rather than anti-vax, but similar themes.


I've used a similar analogy about WWII before.
"I'm not turning my lights off....i have a right to have my lights on....V2 bombers are a myth "

Thankfully people in London were not so stupid and selfish in those days.
 

kranky al

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perhaps consider the amount of tax collected vs the cost
Out of smoking

well id imagine thats fairly easy, look at a country like the us and figure out how much extra a smoker pays for health insurance vs a non smoker

then look at how much their habit costs in tax - pack a day smoker is paying an absolute metric funktonne of extra tax

pack of smokes is what?
$55 each or $385 a week of which id imagine at least $300 is taxes x 52= 15600 in extra tax per year 312000 over 20 years.
 

CD Xbow

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perhaps consider the amount of tax collected vs the cost
Federal government takes 17.4 billion dollars from tobacco, compared with health budget of 81.9 billion. So > 21% of the health budget is essentially paid for by smokers taxes, who make up around 10% of the population. This is more if you include the MC levy. I think that smokers have paid more than there fair share towards their healthcare, and I suspect more than they cost. Figures from here Australia's Science Channel | Why governments are addicted to smoking and alcohol (australiascience.tv)

Added - 2% MC levy on average wage of $90,000 pa = $1800 per year x 2.5 million smokers = $4.5 billion. So in total smokers contribute 17.4 billion from tax plus 4.5 billion, a total of 21.9 billion dollars, which means 26% of the healthcare budget is paid for by smokers. You can check my figures and correct me if I am wrong. I would be pretty sure that far out weighs the medical costs so I don't want to hear any more of that self righteous BS about smokers not deserving healthcare or being punished further.
 
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Power Raid

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Federal government takes 17.4 billion dollars from tobacco, compared with health budget of 81.9 billion. So > 21% of the health budget is essentially paid for by smokers taxes, who make up around 10% of the population. This is more if you include the MC levy. I think that smokers have paid more than there fair share towards their healthcare, and I suspect more than they cost. Figures from here Australia's Science Channel | Why governments are addicted to smoking and alcohol (australiascience.tv)

Added - 2% MC levy on average wage of $90,000 pa = $1800 per year x 2.5 million smokers = $4.5 billion. So in total smokers contribute 17.4 billion from tax plus 4.5 billion, a total of 21.9 billion dollars, which means 26% of the healthcare budget is paid for by smokers. You can check my figures and correct me if I am wrong. I would be pretty sure that far out weighs the medical costs so I don't want to hear any more of that self righteous BS about smokers not deserving healthcare or being punished further.

The tobacco sector is a $9B sector and the government takes $17B?
 

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mighty tiges

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Meanwhile at the Darwin awards:

 

sdfc

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I believe we should have a universal health care system but a statement like this is meaningless. As we already know medicare does not cover dentistry, specialists and other important services. We also accept there is a range of insurances required outside of medicare for a variety of reasons such as travel, work place accidents etc; so the concept of medicare being universal is not as universal as people think.

We also have triage and the allocation of resources that determines who gets and who doesn't get services under medicare.

What I am proposing is "prevention" is better than cure. With swiping medicare cards changing risk behaviours and lifestyle choices through education and awareness.

An example raised by kranky al was ICU for unvaxxed patients. Should they get this service for free? or should they be billed and those additional resources used to improve the health system?

The same argument goes for an alcoholic and a kidney transplant, especially if their are two candidates. Unfortunately brutal choices need to be made in triage and I'd suggest swiping medicare cards for alcohol, cigarettes and fast food will assist medical practitioners and scientists in making informed decisions.
Perhaps you'd like to consider the health landscape without Medicare. You complain that it doesn't 100% cover every medical service, yet you want to water it down with a health credit scoring system.
 

Crankyhawk

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Federal government takes 17.4 billion dollars from tobacco, compared with health budget of 81.9 billion. So > 21% of the health budget is essentially paid for by smokers taxes, who make up around 10% of the population. This is more if you include the MC levy. I think that smokers have paid more than there fair share towards their healthcare, and I suspect more than they cost. Figures from here Australia's Science Channel | Why governments are addicted to smoking and alcohol (australiascience.tv)

Added - 2% MC levy on average wage of $90,000 pa = $1800 per year x 2.5 million smokers = $4.5 billion. So in total smokers contribute 17.4 billion from tax plus 4.5 billion, a total of 21.9 billion dollars, which means 26% of the healthcare budget is paid for by smokers. You can check my figures and correct me if I am wrong. I would be pretty sure that far out weighs the medical costs so I don't want to hear any more of that self righteous BS about smokers not deserving healthcare or being punished further.
While not disagreeing with the general thrust of your post I think that state health budgets should be added (federal would be GP services broadly and state would be hospitals)
 

SBD Gonzalez

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Kidding, right?
Meanwhile at the Darwin awards:

Full marks to the anti-vaxxers for getting as many dupes as they do. Amazed they get any frankly.

I mean, it's not an automatically easy concept to get across, is it?

Having your arse in the air in the ICU, coughing your last, liquid breaths into a bucket, is "freedom", while those fully-vaccinated souls walking around in the outside world, going about their daily lives with their friends and loved ones, are somehow "not free".
 
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adelaidecrows

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Full marks to the anti-vaxxers for getting as many dupes as they do. Amazed they get any frankly.

I mean, it's not an automatically easy concept to get across, is it?

Having your arse in the air in the ICU, coughing your last, liquid breaths into a bucket, is "freedom", while those fully-vaccinated souls walking around in the outside world, going about their daily lives with their friends and loved ones, are somehow "not free".

Antivaxxers, Flat Earthers and militant vegans are the gifts that keep giving.
 

Northalives

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Full marks to the anti-vaxxers for getting as many dupes as they do. Amazed they get any frankly.

I mean, it's not an automatically easy concept to get across, is it?

Having your arse in the air in the ICU, coughing your last, liquid breaths into a bucket, is "freedom", while those fully-vaccinated souls walking around in the outside world, going about their daily lives with their friends and loved ones, are somehow "not free".
Unfortunately friend, people who have spent 4,5,6,7 years plus earning degrees in Immunology, Virology, Pharmaceutical science, Pharmacy and other Medical sciences are completely and utterly dismissed in favour of f**k wits who get around in social media and conspiracy sights.

If these anit-vaxx idiots had to have intrusive surgery, I wonder if they would care to have open heart surgery, tumours removed, fixing smashed limbs etc without the expertise of Anaesthetist to administer an anaesthetic to them?
 

Power Raid

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Perhaps you'd like to consider the health landscape without Medicare. You complain that it doesn't 100% cover every medical service, yet you want to water it down with a health credit scoring system.

what a strange post, given I support medicare

further I find it strange, so many support discrimination against anti-vaxxers including attacks on their families by denying them the right to work.

yet many would oppose the simple concept of swiping medicare cards for alcohol, tobacco and fast food.

There doesn't appear to be consistency in position.
 

Gethelred

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May 1, 2016
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I would support kranky al suggestion of "responsibility" with medicare as we have with every other insurance and concept in life.

I'm on record suggestion medicare cards should be swiped every time one makes a purchase of alcohol, cigarettes and fast food. Given these are associated with heart disease, high blood pressure, cancer and diabetes; perhaps this debate is more relevant than ever. Given it is these diseases turn covid from an issue to a big issue, for those that catch it.
sorted
 

sorted

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Power Raid's and Kranky's Medicare swipe card suggestion are ridiculous.

I oppose all these measures that seek to use increased government control over consensual informed health decisions.
 

CM86

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Sep 21, 2009
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Power Raid's and Kranky's Medicare swipe card suggestion are ridiculous.

I oppose all these measures that seek to use increased government control over consensual informed health decisions.
Of course. You're a man of consistent morals.

What existing ones do you want to repeal?
 

Gethelred

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May 1, 2016
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Power Raid's and Kranky's Medicare swipe card suggestion are ridiculous.

I oppose all these measures that seek to use increased government control over consensual informed health decisions.
I tagged you because I figured - seeing as you wanted to argue the point with me - that you might be interested in arguing the point here.

I agree with you. It's a ******* ID card system, and it creates tiers of citizenship based on your health.
 

CM86

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Sep 21, 2009
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I tagged you because I figured - seeing as you wanted to argue the point with me - that you might be interested in arguing the point here.

I agree with you. It's a ******* ID card system, and it creates tiers of citizenship based on your health.
Ah. is this the Charlemagne?
 

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