AOC v republican Karen's (and Ted)

[Marcel Proust]

Imagine thinking that ‘healthcare is a human right’ vs white supremacist conspiracy theories are two views “just as extreme” as the other

 

[Chief]

Pics broken?

 

[Seeds]

Imagine thinking that ‘healthcare is a human right’ vs white supremacist conspiracy theories are two views “just as extreme” as the other

How is health care in any way a human right?

to get access to health care you have to force others to work on your behalf violating other human rights.

a human right cant be one that requires other human rights to be violated in order to access it.

free health care is a great achievement of a wealthy society. But its not a human right.

and what the hell does being a whining woman have to do with white conspiracy theories?

 

[Chief]

to get access to health care you have to force others to work on your behalf violating other human rights.

No you don't. We as a society pay them so that we all get access individually if we need it.

 

[Seeds]

No you don't. We as a society pay them so that we all get access individually if we need it.

Only rich societies can do that. We are a rich society. A human right can only be an objective human right if it can exist in any human society.

 

[Chief]

Only rich societies can do that. We are a rich society. A human right can only be an objective human right if it can exist in any human society.

It can exist in any society. Is Cuba a rich or poor society? $9kUS GDP per capita says it's not wealthy.

 

[Seeds]

It can exist in any society. Is Cuba a rich or poor society? $9kUS GDP per capita says it's not wealthy.

a society could only be 10 people living in a jungle. For something to be a human right it should be able to exist in all societies without violating other human rights. Free health can not do that.

free health care cant exist in a society without force or sacrifice. Gorvernments Mandating free health care require a subset of people to work to provide for others. Those people may be willing to do that. thats sacrifice. A right cant exist if it relies on the sacrifice of others because people arent always willing to sacrifice their effort.


free health care is a good thing if it only is paid for with sacrifice rather than force. But it isnt a right. Its something we may collectively want As a society. Just like protections for the disabled or unemployed and minimum wages. But these wants dont exist in all societies.

 

[Chief]

Yeah this sounds like a bit of a torturous philosophical acrobatics.

What other rights require that the community as a whole give up something by force? What human rights do our taxes pay to provide or enforce?

 

[Seeds]

Yeah this sounds like a bit of a torturous philosophical acrobatics.

What other rights require that the community as a whole give up something by force? What human rights do our taxes pay to provide or enforce?

If a human right isnt something that can exist in all societies then how do we differentiate a human right for any other laws we make?

 

[Chief]

If a human right isnt something that can exist in all societies then how do we differentiate a human right for any other laws we make?

Then there are no human rights.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

Only rich societies can do that. We are a rich society. A human right can only be an objective human right if it can exist in any human society.

This sounds similar to your shallow 'using the n word isn't a bad thing' rhetoric.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Then there are no human rights.

How so?

 

[kranky al]

How is health care in any way a human right?

to get access to health care you have to force others to work on your behalf violating other human rights.

a human right cant be one that requires other human rights to be violated in order to access it.

free health care is a great achievement of a wealthy society. But its not a human right.

and what the hell does being a whining woman have to do with white conspiracy theories?

To get access to education you have to force others to work on your behalf - close the schools

To get access to roads you have to force others to work on your behalf - close the roads

To get access to defence you have to force others to work on your behalf - close the military

To get access to libraries you have to force others to work on your behalf - close the libraries

To get access to weather bureau you have to force others to work on your behalf - close the wb

To get access to etc etc etc you have to force others to work on your behalf - close the etc etc etc

 

[Seeds]

To get access to education you have to force others to work on your behalf - close the schools

To get access to roads you have to force others to work on your behalf - close the roads

To get access to defence you have to force others to work on your behalf - close the military

To get access to libraries you have to force others to work on your behalf - close the libraries

To get access to weather bureau you have to force others to work on your behalf - close the wb

To get access to etc etc etc you have to force others to work on your behalf - close the etc etc etc

None of those things are human rights for the very reason you state.

 

[Seeds]

This sounds similar to your shallow 'using the n word isn't a bad thing' rhetoric.

If its shallow then its easy to explain why its wrong? Please go ahead. I want to know when im wrong.

 

[owen87]

None of those things are human rights for the very reason you state.

What is a human right?

 

[kranky al]

None of those things are human rights for the very reason you state.

UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) is a milestone document in the history of human rights. Drafted by representatives with different legal and cultural backgrounds from all regions of the world, the Declaration was proclaimed by the United Nations General Assembly in Paris on 10 December 1948 (General Assembly resolution 217 A) as a common standard of achievements for all peoples and all nations. It sets out, for the first time, fundamental human rights to be universally protected and it has been translated into over 500 languages.
Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.


(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

 

[Roby]

To get access to education you have to force others to work on your behalf - close the schools

To get access to roads you have to force others to work on your behalf - close the roads

To get access to defence you have to force others to work on your behalf - close the military

To get access to libraries you have to force others to work on your behalf - close the libraries

To get access to weather bureau you have to force others to work on your behalf - close the wb

To get access to etc etc etc you have to force others to work on your behalf - close the etc etc etc

Why don't we just simplify it for seeds.

In order to have clean running water you have to have others to work on your behalf

In order to have food you have to have others work on your behalf

In order to live in a society which does not hurt or kill you need other to work on your behalf

Or does Seeds think by this definition that water, food and saftey are not human rights.

 

[kranky al]

Why don't we just simplify it for seeds.

In order to have clean running water you have to have others to work on your behalf

In order to have food you have to have others work on your behalf

In order to live in a society which does not hurt or kill you need other to work on your behalf

Or does Seeds think by this definition that water, food and saftey are not human rights.

No police

no ambulance

 

[Seeds]

UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) is a milestone document in the history of human rights. Drafted by representatives with different legal and cultural backgrounds from all regions of the world, the Declaration was proclaimed by the United Nations General Assembly in Paris on 10 December 1948 (General Assembly resolution 217 A) as a common standard of achievements for all peoples and all nations. It sets out, for the first time, fundamental human rights to be universally protected and it has been translated into over 500 languages.
Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.


(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

That was a joint declaration by politicians many from non democratic countries who misused an academic term to generate good policy. a great achievement. But it aint human rights.

 

[kranky al]

That was a joint declaration by politicians many from non democratic countries who misused an academic term to generate good policy. a great achievement. But it aint human rights.

The un’s universal declaration on human rights isnt actually human rights according to seeds.

Can you please link me to the particular human rights declaration you subscribe to?

 

[Roby]

That was a joint declaration by politicians many from non democratic countries who misused an academic term to generate good policy. a great achievement. But it aint human rights.

You have not responded to anyone who's shown other more ubiquitous forms of human rights in our society.

When asked you have not "defined" what human rights are...

 

[Chief]

That was a joint declaration by politicians many from non democratic countries who misused an academic term to generate good policy. a great achievement. But it aint human rights.

Which dictionary are you using?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

A human right can only be an objective human right if it can exist in any human society.

A human wrong.

 

[Seeds]

You have not responded to anyone who's shown other more ubiquitous forms of human rights in our society.

When asked you have not "defined" what human rights are...

Yes i have in countless posts. Human rights are rights (actions that should be inherent to all people) that do not contradict other rights in any society regardless of size or wealth. That is the only definition that makes sense to me that doesnt reduce rights down to things that simply would be nice to have In society.

nothing wrong with doing that. Its what the UN have done. But it removes the objective nature of a right and therefore their power as a concept. Its why many academics now say that human rights are an imaginary construct. Cos thats what the UN has reduced it to. It enables right wingers to reject the concept of human rights (and some left wingers) because it now has no real definition except something governments want to legislate for its citizens. I however believe rights are an objective reality.