Expansion Apple Isle Showdown: Tas Govt threatens to end Hawks, North deals if no plan for 19th side

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madmug

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Maybe we'll make more money from memberships from our Melbourne supporters? Or maybe we can get a new sponsor or two? Maybe better on field performance in a year or two might also help?

Like, it's not that hard to figure out where North can make some of that money.

In a broader sense, I think selling games and constantly being spoken of as a relocation candidate massively hurts our brand. It makes sponsors less likely to sponsor, and those that do spend less. Partly because you are physically getting in front of fewer people at Hobart than you are at Docklands, and partly because there's a vibe that they don't want to be associated with.

We're now debt-free, so the need for the money is reduced. If it ended tomorrow, it'd hurt a bit in year one, a bit less in year two, and so on. But there's also the "I won't buy a membership because they're a bit sh*t this year" element at play, so how much of the hurt would be Tassie related would be arguable.

Bottom line is that Tasmania don't want us to relocate, we don't want to relocate either, so assuming that we stay with the current or similar arrangement for a few years until the new Tassie side comes in would work well for all parties.
I think it entirely possible if a Tasteam eventuates, that the Hawks/North thing continues.

If not, I see North going & some hard bargaining over the Hawks contract. Maybe liking it to more games against Melbourne based clubs, or less money.
Nope Tassie no longer needs to subsidise North - simple, should not continue.
Oh I agree. I'm just looking at the political possibilities& footy & the deals that might be made. But who knows. Its all guess work until we find out what such deals may or may not be be.
 

Rich01

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Maybe we'll make more money from memberships from our Melbourne supporters? Or maybe we can get a new sponsor or two? Maybe better on field performance in a year or two might also help?

Like, it's not that hard to figure out where North can make some of that money.

In a broader sense, I think selling games and constantly being spoken of as a relocation candidate massively hurts our brand. It makes sponsors less likely to sponsor, and those that do spend less. Partly because you are physically getting in front of fewer people at Hobart than you are at Docklands, and partly because there's a vibe that they don't want to be associated with.

We're now debt-free, so the need for the money is reduced. If it ended tomorrow, it'd hurt a bit in year one, a bit less in year two, and so on. But there's also the "I won't buy a membership because they're a bit sh*t this year" element at play, so how much of the hurt would be Tassie related would be arguable.

Bottom line is that Tasmania don't want us to relocate, we don't want to relocate either, so assuming that we stay with the current or similar arrangement for a few years until the new Tassie side comes in would work well for all parties.
Seems legit.
Exiting tassie seems easy.
Replace the millions from this arrangement each year through increased membership revenue and an additional sponsor (who may not be too concerned about lack of exposure, nor on field position in the short term).

Facetiousness aside, brands look to sponsorship to increase brand awareness. Good marketers see this as a ‘long’ objective- build awareness to the largest portion of their relative target market. To do so, the measure needs to be reach.

The smaller the product that is watched, the lower the appeal to the brand. North, while they play in a high reach product in AFL, wouldn’t be seen as appealing to brands with large amounts of marketing spend to be allocated to brand building through sponsorship. They don’t have the membership base, nor the viewership.

Hence the Tassie partnership is vital to their financial independence.
 

big_e

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Seems legit.
Exiting tassie seems easy.
Replace the millions from this arrangement each year through increased membership revenue and an additional sponsor (who may not be too concerned about lack of exposure, nor on field position in the short term).

Facetiousness aside, brands look to sponsorship to increase brand awareness. Good marketers see this as a ‘long’ objective- build awareness to the largest portion of their relative target market. To do so, the measure needs to be reach.

The smaller the product that is watched, the lower the appeal to the brand. North, while they play in a high reach product in AFL, wouldn’t be seen as appealing to brands with large amounts of marketing spend to be allocated to brand building through sponsorship. They don’t have the membership base, nor the viewership.

Hence the Tassie partnership is vital to their financial independence.
Literally said it would hurt.

And North supporters are well aware of the lack of viewers, which is deprived of us even when we're good. Consecutive prelims in the mid 2010s and barely a Friday night to show for it, as it looked like Carlton might be heading out of the bottom four....

It's why we are fighting to keep Good Friday, one of our few opportunities to be on centre stage.

It's a real chicken and egg - smaller supporter base leads to fewer primetime games which leads to smaller sponsorship which leads to seeking alternative sources of funds which gets us even more off-Broadway which leads to fewer chances to be seen by prospective fans which leads to a smaller supporter base. A bit like a rebuild on field, it will take time but starting debt-free means we have some room to move.
 

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Bicco

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North aren't going anywhere. They're a tenant of Marvel which the AFL owns. 11 games. The AFL won't be giving that up. It'll go to 19 teams at least.
 

Cubs2Lions

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North aren't going anywhere. They're a tenant of Marvel which the AFL owns. 11 games. The AFL won't be giving that up. It'll go to 19 teams at least.
I think the problem is with the 19 teams argument in the league is that the "AFL" would most likely want a 20th team ASAP in the league though to create a much more equal competition fixturing wise, to stop clubs being favoured with the placements of the byes throughout the season like how the GC was placed in the league in 2011 before GWS entered the year later and to improve its broadcasting/crowd revenue across the whole country even more then it does now.

The only problem is there though that the only viable 20th team options atm around the country are realistically a 3rd WA team or Canberra/ACT team, with a 3rd NSW team still 15-20 years away from coming into fruition while a NT or 3rd SA/QLD team still 25-30 years as well from happening IMO. Maybe that's why the AFL might be considering North Melbourne to relocate down to Tasmania to be branded as the "Tasmania Kangaroos" if it is possible by any way shape or form, rightly or wrongly.
 
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Walshawk

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I think the problem is with the 19 teams argument in the league is that the "AFL" would most likely want a 20th team ASAP in the league though to create a much more equal competition fixturing wise, to stop clubs being favoured with the placements of the byes throughout the season like how the GC was placed in the league in 2011 before GWS entered the year later and to improve its broadcasting/crowd revenue across the whole country even more then it does now.

The only problem is there though that the only viable 20th team options atm around the country are realistically a 3rd WA team or Canberra/ACT team, with a 3rd NSW team still 15-20 years away from coming into fruition while a NT or 3rd SA/QLD team still 25-30 years as well from happening IMO. Maybe that's why the AFL might be considering North Melbourne to relocate down to Tasmania to be branded as the "Tasmania Kangaroos" if it is possible by any way shape or form, rightly or wrongly.
We have been through this. You can do the fixture (jiggling after round 19) so that all top 8 clubs have their second bye the week before the finals. It will have little impact on the fairness of the comp. fairness has never been an AFL priority anyway.
19 teams is fine. A 19th team is not dependant on there being a 20th team.
 

Cubs2Lions

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We have been through this. You can do the fixture (jiggling after round 19) so that all top 8 clubs have their second bye the week before the finals. It will have little impact on the fairness of the comp. fairness has never been an AFL priority anyway.
19 teams is fine. A 19th team is not dependant on there being a 20th team.
Well hopefully the AFL gets this memo then of that cause that would work quite well but I wouldn't get my hopes up about the AFL listening to it.
 

Sportsmad93

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Albury or Bendigo are viable options for selling games.


Given how opposed both the board and their fans are to relocation, I think they'd prefer the club stay in North Melbourne and just drop down to the VFL if they can't survive in the AFL. This isn't a problem at present though, they're turning a profit and have almost no debt. Let's see the impacts of the Arden St revitalisation and what they do after Tasmania kick them out first.
So if North get demoted to the VFL, it makes you think should the AFL bring in a relegation system for the bottom 4 teams? I'm not sure it would sit well with North fans if they're stuck in the VFL forever at the expense of new teams.
 

Engimal v3

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So if North get demoted to the VFL, it makes you think should the AFL bring in a relegation system for the bottom 4 teams? I'm not sure it would sit well with North fans if they're stuck in the VFL forever at the expense of new teams.
Relegation will never, ever happen in the AFL. Imagine if the bottom 4 for a given year were Richmond, Collingwood, West Coast and Adelaide.

Edit: or even worse: Adelaide, Port, West Coast and Fremantle. You could wipe 2 states out.
 

Johnny Bananas

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So if North get demoted to the VFL, it makes you think should the AFL bring in a relegation system for the bottom 4 teams?
I never said that. My contention is just that if it ever gets to a point where North can longer survive financially at the top level (and it must be stressed they are not in such a situation at present, since they're turning profits and have negligible debt), then relegation to the VFL but remaining at Arden St might be preferable to being parcelled off to Tasmania or forcibly merged. But I'm happy to be corrected by North fans if I'm wrong.

I'm not sure it would sit well with North fans if they're stuck in the VFL forever at the expense of new teams.
I don't think it would either, but ask Fitzroy fans if they would have preferred to drop down to the VFL rather than effectively not exist for a few years. They did eventually get their team reconstituted in the VAFA but that's a lower level competition and less popular.

And even if it wouldn't sit well with them, it may be preferable to relocation, but that's just me speculating based on current attitudes.
 

Sphynx

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Tassie is dead.

The AFL made their bed, they've lost it to Basketball and Soccer.

There was always going to be a casualty to the money invested in GWS and the GC and Tasmanian grassroots football is it.

3,500 registered Aus Kickers and a total of 8,000 junior footballers.

There's a reason there's only 1 or 2 draftable players each year, instead of 10.

The participation rates in NSW are 25 x higher, because they pump in 25 x the $$$ into AFL NSW than they do AFL TAS.

The AFL scaling back the NGA's will only reduce some of the investment also in there.
 
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madmug

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Tassie is dead.

The AFL made their bed, they've lost it to Basketball and Soccer.

There as always going to be a casualty to the money invested in GWS and the GC and Tasmanian grassroots football is it.

3,500 registered Aus Kickers and a total of 8,000 junior footballers.

There's a reason there's only 1 or 2 draftable players each year, instead of 10.

The participation rates in NSW are 25 x higher, because they pump in 25 x the $$$ into AFL NSW than they do AFL TAS.

The AFL scaling back the NGA's will only reduce some of the investment also in there.
In the words of the great Monty Python. "I'm not dead yet". ;)

Local footy certainly does need some life support.

But like the Covid vaccine roll out, it's been promised, but never seems to arrive.

Thanks Gil, great plan.
 

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Roylion

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I don't think it would either, but ask Fitzroy fans if they would have preferred to drop down to the VFL rather than effectively not exist for a few years. They did eventually get their team reconstituted in the VAFA but that's a lower level competition and less popular.

And even if it wouldn't sit well with them, it may be preferable to relocation, but that's just me speculating based on current attitudes.
Fitzroy supporters had a number of options over the years

- Sydney Lions 1981 - playing in Fitzroy jumper with SFC logo instead of FFC
- Melbourne Lions 1986 and 1994 - playing in Melbourne jumper with gold Fitzroy Lion on front of jumper
- Fitzroy Bulldogs 1989 - playing in Fitzroy jumper with two gold horizontal bars added
- North Fitzroy Kangaroos 1996 - a combined Fitzroy and North jumper in colours of both clubs (red gold, blue and white
- Brisbane Lions 1986 and 1994 onwards - effectively what the Brisbane Lions (formerly Bears) have now
- Canberra - Fitzroy Lions 1995 - Fitzroy colours, seven home games

The above were the serious ones

Other offers included

- Fitzroy-Collingwood Magpies (1992 and 1996)
- Hawthorn Lions (1996)
- Geelong Lions (1996)
- Adelaide Lions (1996)
- Norwood Lions (1996)

And a couple of other laughable offers from Richmond and Footscray in 1996

The Fitzroy board's preference was a merger with a Melbourne based club rather than a relocation interstate, because of the ability for Fitzroy supporters to watch the merged club on a regular basis, instead of 4-6 times a year.
 

HPKS

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Fitzroy supporters had a number of options over the years

- Sydney Lions 1981 - playing in Fitzroy jumper with SFC logo instead of FFC
- Melbourne Lions 1986 and 1994 - playing in Melbourne jumper with gold Fitzroy Lion on front of jumper
- Fitzroy Bulldogs 1989 - playing in Fitzroy jumper with two gold horizontal bars added
- North Fitzroy Kangaroos 1996 - a combined Fitzroy and North jumper in colours of both clubs (red gold, blue and white
- Brisbane Lions 1986 and 1994 onwards - effectively what the Brisbane Lions (formerly Bears) have now
- Canberra - Fitzroy Lions 1995 - Fitzroy colours, seven home games

The above were the serious ones

Other offers included

- Fitzroy-Collingwood Magpies (1992 and 1996)
- Hawthorn Lions (1996)
- Geelong Lions (1996)
- Adelaide Lions (1996)
- Norwood Lions (1996)

And a couple of other laughable offers from Richmond and Footscray in 1996

The Fitzroy board's preference was a merger with a Melbourne based club rather than a relocation interstate, because of the ability for Fitzroy supporters to watch the merged club on a regular basis, instead of 4-6 times a year.
Out of those what would you have preferred looking back with hindsight?
 

fargothegreat

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Fitzroy supporters had a number of options over the years

- Sydney Lions 1981 - playing in Fitzroy jumper with SFC logo instead of FFC
- Melbourne Lions 1986 and 1994 - playing in Melbourne jumper with gold Fitzroy Lion on front of jumper
- Fitzroy Bulldogs 1989 - playing in Fitzroy jumper with two gold horizontal bars added
- North Fitzroy Kangaroos 1996 - a combined Fitzroy and North jumper in colours of both clubs (red gold, blue and white
- Brisbane Lions 1986 and 1994 onwards - effectively what the Brisbane Lions (formerly Bears) have now
- Canberra - Fitzroy Lions 1995 - Fitzroy colours, seven home games

The above were the serious ones

Other offers included

- Fitzroy-Collingwood Magpies (1992 and 1996)
- Hawthorn Lions (1996)
- Geelong Lions (1996)
- Adelaide Lions (1996)
- Norwood Lions (1996)

And a couple of other laughable offers from Richmond and Footscray in 1996

The Fitzroy board's preference was a merger with a Melbourne based club rather than a relocation interstate, because of the ability for Fitzroy supporters to watch the merged club on a regular basis, instead of 4-6 times a year.
Interesting that the Brisbane option was there in 1986 too. Had Fitzroy gone to Brisbane ten years earlier it would have felt a lot more like the same club to Fitzroy fans and probably been easier to swallow I'm guessing?
 

Roylion

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Interesting that the Brisbane option was there in 1986 too. Had Fitzroy gone to Brisbane ten years earlier it would have felt a lot more like the same club to Fitzroy fans and probably been easier to swallow I'm guessing?
Relocation is probably better than the Brisbane Bears rebranding after Fitzroy exited the competition for a 12 year hiatus / exile from competitive football.
 

BringBackTorps

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E. Mc Guire has just said on Footy Classified Tas. should get its own 19th team by 2028:-

. if the Tas. govt. agrees to spend $20m pa, perennially (indexed from 2022 inflation) on the team, & GR AF in Tas. from 2022. "Step up, or step out"; & "...to put up, or shut up"
And this $20m pa starts from 2021, with Tas. govt. spending on GR, scholarships, elite pathways - & must produce at least 6 Draftees pa. (by when?)

. if the fed. govt. also agrees to spend $20m pa (perennially & indexed) on the Tas. team & GR AF there (is a Fed. perennial $20m politically realistic? Very unlikely).

. if the Tas. govt. builds an AFL stadium with a retractable roof (no capacity mentioned)

. the AFL will fund the Tas. team by $20m pa, if the above 2 conditions are met.

. a 20th team representing Far Nth Qld./NT (also playing some games in Darwin) is a likely option in/after 2028- but only if Tas. joins as the 19th team ( I don't believe such a nthn. Aust. team would have the financially viability for decades).

. a 20 team comp. should have a 12 team Final Series, which will add $20m pa to the Rights.

. a 20 Round comp. (20 x 10 games pw = 200 H & A games: 2 more than now)

. 3 games pa on the US west coast.




EDIT:

See my post below, post#3296, for full Mc Guire comments.
 
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madmug

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E. Mc Guire has just said on Footy Classified Tas. should get its own 19th team by 2028:-

. if the Tas. govt. agrees to spend $20m pa, perennially (indexed from 2022 inflation) on the team, & GR AF in Tas. from 2022. "Step up, or step out"; & "...to put up, or shut up"
And this $20m pa starts from 2021, with Tas. govt. spending on GR, scholarships, & pathways - & must produce at least 6 Draftees pa.

. if the fed. govt. also agrees to spend $20m pa (perennially & indexed?) on the Tas. team & AF there (is a perennial promise politically realistic? Doubt it).

. if the Tas. govt. builds an AFL stadium with a retractable roof (no capacity mentioned)

. the AFL will fund the Tas. team by $20m pa, if the above 2 conditions are met.

. a 20th team representing far Nth Qld./NT (also playing some games in Darwin), is a likely option in 2028- but only if if Tas. joins as the 19th team ( I don't believe such a nthn. Aust. team would have the financially viability for decades).

. a 12 team Final Series, which will add $20m to the Rights.

. a 20 Round comp. (20 x 10 games pw = 200 H & A games: 2 more than now)

. 3 games pa on the US west coast.

Thanks Eddie, another plan. Just what we need. ;)

Given that Hobart has less rain than Melbourne, Sydney, Perth & Brisbane, whats the idea of a roofed stadium?

In fact, a roofed stadium would be more useful in FNQ/NT given the heat & storms they get.

Did Eddie actually want $20mil from Feds, $20mil from State & $20mil from the AFL Per Annum? Thats $60mil before memberships & sponsorships. Thats ridiculous!

Anyway, better to be spoken about than not being spoken about!!
 

fargothegreat

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I like Ed's passion here, but his numbers are waaaay off. Needs to read the business case.

I like the Macquarie Point stadium idea, but it won't even be entertained by government without an AFL license being granted.

I also think NT is probably third in line for the 20th team (if there was to be one). WA3 and Canberra would have much larger population bases to support a team.
 

HPKS

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Melbourne Lions playing out of the MCG would have been my preference.

View attachment 1096154

View attachment 1096156
The jumper & banner just seems to work so well.
E. Mc Guire has just said on Footy Classified Tas. should get its own 19th team by 2028:-

. if the Tas. govt. agrees to spend $20m pa, perennially (indexed from 2022 inflation) on the team, & GR AF in Tas. from 2022. "Step up, or step out"; & "...to put up, or shut up"
And this $20m pa starts from 2021, with Tas. govt. spending on GR, scholarships, & pathways - & must produce at least 6 Draftees pa.

. if the fed. govt. also agrees to spend $20m pa (perennially & indexed?) on the Tas. team & AF there (is a perennial promise politically realistic? Doubt it).

. if the Tas. govt. builds an AFL stadium with a retractable roof (no capacity mentioned)

. the AFL will fund the Tas. team by $20m pa, if the above 2 conditions are met.

. a 20th team representing Far Nth Qld./NT (also playing some games in Darwin) is a likely option in/after 2028- but only if Tas. joins as the 19th team ( I don't believe such a nthn. Aust. team would have the financially viability for decades).

. a 20 team comp. should have a 12 team Final Series, which will add $20m pa to the Rights.

. a 20 Round comp. (20 x 10 games pw = 200 H & A games: 2 more than now)

. 3 games pa on the US west coast.

He’s just trying to stay relevant. He’s from a bygone era.
 

Roylion

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The jumper & banner just seems to work so well.
Yep. Both supporter bases would feel they had part of their old identity in any merge. Melbourne have the name, the home base and the basic jumper. Fitzroy have the Fitzroy Lion emblem and the colours. Plenty of opportunity to watch the side play in Melbourne.

It's the only way a merger of Melbourne clubs could work. The only other compatible clubs in this regard would be North Melbourne and the Western Bulldogs.
 

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