Expansion Apple Isle Showdown: Tas Govt threatens to end Hawks, North deals if no plan for 19th side

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Shoei

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 26, 2011
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I support two divisions with promotion-relegation. Bottom team in premier division could play-off home and away against top team in second division annually. These games would get good crowds and TV audiences.
Delusional to think that there is any model the AFL could make that would be able to sustain a promotion/relegation system.

It will never happen.
 

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Tasmanian saint

Club Legend
Apr 24, 2018
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What's the over/under on the NT somehow getting a team before Tassie?
Would be great for the locals and indigenous players but just don’t think it could stack up financially . It would come down to how much extra money in broadcasting the afl would get buy having a extra game every week with twenty teams and would it be enough to under right a NT team and bring extra income
 

The_Wookie

Queenslander
Jul 2, 2010
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What's the over/under on the NT somehow getting a team before Tassie?
It wont happen, but it would be somewhat hilarious as an observer if this article is anything to go by


SO the Northern Territory wants its own AFL team and has compiled a report to support its brazen ambition - as one recent Australian Prime Minister said: “Fair shake of the sauce bottle, mate”.
Tasmanian footy fans say, back of the queue, Territorians.

Tasmania has been smacking the bottom of this sauce bottle ever since we beat Victoria on that glorious State of Origin day at North Hobart Oval in 1990 – a milestone occasion that went into the Tasmanian Football Hall of Fame in the Great Game category.

That’s 21 years of asking, preparing, pleading, preparing, broken promises and rejection.

What has NT done in that time? Seen Tasmania’s efforts and decided to cash in, ride our coat tails, and now it seems, jump the queue.

Tasmanians won’t have it.
 

Tonatopia

Team Captain
Sep 30, 2018
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Delusional to think that there is any model the AFL could make that would be able to sustain a promotion/relegation system.
What a ridiculous comment, considering that a promotion/ relegation system is the most effective way of structuring a truly inclusive national League.
 

Shoei

Norm Smith Medallist
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What a ridiculous comment, considering that a promotion/ relegation system is the most effective way of structuring a truly inclusive national League.
Explain a functional, economically viable promotion/relegation model for the AFL then; Remember to address salary cap, drafting, player agency, amateur/semi-professional vs professional clubs/players, venues, sponorships, effects on State Leagues and dealing the huge costs associated with such things.

I''ll wait.
 

Le Grille

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Feb 14, 2005
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What a ridiculous comment, considering that a promotion/ relegation system is the most effective way of structuring a truly inclusive national League.
Financially not viable , Australia simply is too large a land mass with a lack of regional areas in the middle that could possibly make it effective. Again your current second tier comps would be comparable to the second division there is no way that would generate enough income, sponsorship, exposure, ratings etc to cover the costs it would take to run the second level teams. It is the furtherest thing from a solution


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Tonatopia

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Sep 30, 2018
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Financially not viable , Australia simply is too large a land mass with a lack of regional areas in the middle that could possibly make it effective. Again your current second tier comps would be comparable to the second division there is no way that would generate enough income, sponsorship, exposure, ratings etc to cover the costs it would take to run the second level teams. It is the furtherest thing from a solution


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Rubbish. Your speculations have no basis in reality.
12 teams in Div1 would enable Div2 to be hyper-competitive, of high quality and ultra important and most watchable. Average crowds of 20k would be expected, and carefully scheduled games would enable good TV viewership and broadcast revenue.
 
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Le Grille

Brownlow Medallist
Feb 14, 2005
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What a ridiculous comment, considering that a promotion/ relegation system is the most effective way of structuring a truly inclusive national League.
Financially not viable , Australia simply is too large a land mass with a lack of regional areas in the middle that could possibly make it effective. Again your current second tier comps would be comparable to the second division there is no way that would generate enough income, sponsorship, exposure, ratings etc to cover the costs it would take to run the second level teams. It is the furtherest thing from a solution


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Shoei

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 26, 2011
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Read this;
Proposal for a Truly National AFL.
I'll wait for your response. But please make it a little more sophisticated than, 'it will never happen'.
"Firstly, each team will enter via their own capacity. The team's listed are just an example. I'd suggest that a few teams may be driven to success by private/ corporate ownership, but at the end of the day, the free market will dictate proceedings, not AFL socialist engineering."

The National Divisional League shall be underpinned by a Football Constitution.
- The laws of the game should be enshrined in a national trust, only to be amended by 75% consensus of participating clubs.
- Governance by participating clubs, based on democratic consensus, with the AFL acting as administrator.
- Two Clubs to be promoted and/or relegated from each division.
- No Draft, Players will choose who they wish to play for.
- No Salary Cap
- Player Transfers welcome, as a key factor in supporting junior football development, and revenue streams for smaller clubs.
- Final 5, series. Offering a distinct advantage to top spot.
- Unlimited List Sizes. Each clubs decides how many players are to sit on their list depending on their resources
- Richer clubs may choose to field a stand alone reserves side and even junior development squads, but there is no rules on reserves players, who they play for or where supplementary players can be sourced from.
- Player/Club contracts shall not have any regulatory oversight.
- All clubs are responsible for their own revenue and welfare.
- Season Fixture and broadcast rights to be negotiated via the clubs, broadcasters and ground representatives, based on 51% consensus of clubs (per division). This will create a natural free market equalization via consensus, ie, powerful clubs would have to 'compensate' poorer clubs for prime time games. I have a detailed proposal on how this works.
It is based on direct negotiation and majority consensus.
- The AFL administrators should be administrators ONLY! Not engineers of the game. The game belongs to us, and should evolve organically and via consensus from the clubs.

In a world were current AFL teams rely on the league for handouts to survive, this brainfart is the best you can retort with?

The magical skyfairies will pay for everything! You'll see!



******* delusional. Literally took 10 seconds to dismiss.
 

Ando727

Norm Smith Medallist
Dec 12, 2009
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None of these teams have 2 'homes'. They have a home and a FIFO base, and as this thread shows, the locals there don't really consider them 'their' team.

Hobart will have the finals, training base, admin, players living there, medical, etc. etc. etc.

Launceston (and indeed, the rest of Tas) will get...Occasional promo trips, and then during the season the team will fly in, play games every now and then, and fly back out as quick as they can (gotta get home so as not interrupt recovery after all). Maybe a few injured players might stay back for an after match function. Nothing of substance though.

Hobart will get all the benefits, the rest will just be a cash cow.


Initially, there will be support in the North for the 'Tas' (Hobart) team, but gradually they'll realise they're being taken for a ride and many will drift back to the team they supported before.
You literally never fail to bore me with your insipid drivel.
 

Tonatopia

Team Captain
Sep 30, 2018
380
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"Firstly, each team will enter via their own capacity. The team's listed are just an example. I'd suggest that a few teams may be driven to success by private/ corporate ownership, but at the end of the day, the free market will dictate proceedings, not AFL socialist engineering."

The National Divisional League shall be underpinned by a Football Constitution.
- The laws of the game should be enshrined in a national trust, only to be amended by 75% consensus of participating clubs.
- Governance by participating clubs, based on democratic consensus, with the AFL acting as administrator.
- Two Clubs to be promoted and/or relegated from each division.
- No Draft, Players will choose who they wish to play for.
- No Salary Cap
- Player Transfers welcome, as a key factor in supporting junior football development, and revenue streams for smaller clubs.
- Final 5, series. Offering a distinct advantage to top spot.
- Unlimited List Sizes. Each clubs decides how many players are to sit on their list depending on their resources
- Richer clubs may choose to field a stand alone reserves side and even junior development squads, but there is no rules on reserves players, who they play for or where supplementary players can be sourced from.
- Player/Club contracts shall not have any regulatory oversight.
- All clubs are responsible for their own revenue and welfare.
- Season Fixture and broadcast rights to be negotiated via the clubs, broadcasters and ground representatives, based on 51% consensus of clubs (per division). This will create a natural free market equalization via consensus, ie, powerful clubs would have to 'compensate' poorer clubs for prime time games. I have a detailed proposal on how this works.
It is based on direct negotiation and majority consensus.
- The AFL administrators should be administrators ONLY! Not engineers of the game. The game belongs to us, and should evolve organically and via consensus from the clubs.

In a world were current AFL teams rely on the league for handouts to survive, this brainfart is the best you can retort with?

The magical skyfairies will pay for everything! You'll see!



******* delusional. Literally took 10 seconds to dismiss.
Your just like the rest of them. No substance. Just mud slinging.
 

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Shoei

Norm Smith Medallist
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Your just like the rest of them. No substance. Just mud slinging.
Because your "proposal"is complete fan-fiction with no application in reality.

Where does the money come from? Some vague reference to "All clubs are responsible for their own revenue and welfare".

Capitalism will sort it out is not an answer.
 

Tonatopia

Team Captain
Sep 30, 2018
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Because your "proposal"is complete fan-fiction with no application in reality.

Where does the money come from? Some vague reference to "All clubs are responsible for their own revenue and welfare".

Capitalism will sort it out is not an answer.
Revenue will come from:
- Club membership
- player sponsorship
- merchandise
- gate takings
- food and beverage
- corporate sponsorship
- broadcast rights
- specialty functions
- sports bar/ restaurant/ pokies
- player transfers

That's how
 

Tonatopia

Team Captain
Sep 30, 2018
380
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Well first question how would you fund it, everything else is largely irrelevant if it can’t be paid for


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
The key is to have only 12 teams in Div1, thereby enabling 6 existing club's to compete in Div2, thereby blurring the line between Div1/2 making both extremely relevant, engaging, high quality and thereby increasing revenue.

As it stands, we have 18 teams and at the end of the year, only 1 Premiership.

If we had 24 teams in 2 divisions, instead of only having 1 significant result (premier), we would have 2 Premierships, 2 promotions and 4 relegations. This is more enthralling, and I suggest, would increase broadcast revenue, gate takings, membership and corporate sponsorship.
 

Le Grille

Brownlow Medallist
Feb 14, 2005
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The key is to have only 12 teams in Div1, thereby enabling 6 existing club's to compete in Div2, thereby blurring the line between Div1/2 making both extremely relevant, engaging, high quality and thereby increasing revenue.

As it stands, we have 18 teams and at the end of the year, only 1 Premiership.

If we had 24 teams in 2 divisions, instead of only having 1 significant result (premier), we would have 2 Premierships, 2 promotions and 4 relegations. This is more enthralling, and I suggest, would increase broadcast revenue, gate takings, membership and corporate sponsorship.
It won’t work like that at present you get buy in from neutrals at most games because it’s the premium product, even in EPL revenues, attendances, sponsors drop considerably when a team is relegated. You may have diehard fans stick around if their teams is relegated but regardless of how you frame it, players will want to play top division fans/sponsors/tv will want to deal with the top league. The second level will get the scraps but still have significant costs.


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Tonatopia

Team Captain
Sep 30, 2018
380
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It won’t work like that at present you get buy in from neutrals at most games because it’s the premium product, even in EPL revenues, attendances, sponsors drop considerably when a team is relegated. You may have diehard fans stick around if their teams is relegated but regardless of how you frame it, players will want to play top division fans/sponsors/tv will want to deal with the top league. The second level will get the scraps but still have significant costs.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
Coming from an intimate MFC perspective, with a kid.
During our dark period of bottoming out and rebuilding, I would have honestly rather us relegated and rebuild in Div2, winning games, finals and eventually a Premiership, rather than watching the beltings and loss of hope and eventually staged losses in Div1. It was horry, and turned many kids away from the club.

Also, I think MFC supporter participation in 2011 would have been much more positive, healthy and attracted more engagement if we were to properly rebuild in Div2.

Also, EPL Div2 average close to 20k per game. Why couldn't our game expect that kind of attendance in Div2?
 

Le Grille

Brownlow Medallist
Feb 14, 2005
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Coming from an intimate MFC perspective, with a kid.
During our dark period of bottoming out and rebuilding, I would have honestly rather us relegated and rebuild in Div2, winning games, finals and eventually a Premiership, rather than watching the beltings and loss of hope and eventually staged losses for welfare.

Also, I think MFC supporter participation in 2011 would have been much more positive, healthy and attracted more engagement if we were to properly rebuild in Div2.

Also, EPL Div2 average close to 20k per game. Why couldn't our game expect that kind of attendance in Div2?
The player pool in Soccer is vastly larger than Aussie Rules, the standard is still quite high. A second division Aussie Rules game would not be of a similar relative quality as second tier soccer.

Particularly if your unlimited cap and list spots idea is adhered to you would have clubs stockpiling players not only for depth but to deny opponents to have their players.

People simply won’t turn up in enough numbers for an inferior product


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Bjo187

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Apr 30, 2020
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Explain a functional, economically viable promotion/relegation model for the AFL then; Remember to address salary cap, drafting, player agency, amateur/semi-professional vs professional clubs/players, venues, sponorships, effects on State Leagues and dealing the huge costs associated with such things.

I''ll wait.
Bloody hell please don't get tonatopia started again, every thread i go into he has hijacked with the promotion/ relegation system stuff.
 

Bicco

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Jun 23, 2013
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Read this;
Proposal for a Truly National AFL.
I'll wait for your response. But please make it a little more sophisticated than, 'it will never happen'.
Oh look, a whole thread dedicated to the discussion of this topic. Best you toddle off over there and leave this one alone.
 

Tonatopia

Team Captain
Sep 30, 2018
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The player pool in Soccer is vastly larger than Aussie Rules, the standard is still quite high. A second division Aussie Rules game would not be of a similar relative quality as second tier soccer.

Particularly if your unlimited cap and list spots idea is adhered to you would have clubs stockpiling players not only for depth but to deny opponents to have their players.
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What was the standard of football in 1958, when 120,000 people packed the MCG? I'd say about the current VAFA Div2 level.
Footy is about passion for the club, and a star or two.
This whole standard of the game notion is a furphy.
Even Div1 local footy has an amazing standard. There are thousands and thousands of quality footballers in Oz.

And players don't want to be stockpiled, even if payed well. They want to play. Thereby a natural equilibrium occurs.
 
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Le Grille

Brownlow Medallist
Feb 14, 2005
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Ok if it’s a furphy point me to the massive attendances of vfl, wafl, sanfl etc. you can simply look to wafl once the eagles came in


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Tonatopia

Team Captain
Sep 30, 2018
380
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AFL Club
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Ok if it’s a furphy point me to the massive attendances of vfl, wafl, sanfl etc. you can simply look to wafl once the eagles came in.
It proves my point, as it is a closed State league without pathway to the AFL. Once you offer a pathway to the big time, then support follows.

I'd suggest however, if Bendigo, who ironically made an application to join the VFL in the 1950's, was given an opportunity to join the AFL, that attendances and support would naturally follow.

Just as I think a 3rd Perth team would gain enough support to sustain itself and grow into a long-term Div1/2 prospect, as would Hobart and Launceston

This thread is about the 19th team, and I think it should go to Launceston, branded as the Nth Tasmania Devils.

Obviously, Hobart would quickly follow, and then game on for the rest of the country.
 

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