Training The Thread Formerly Known As The Training Thread

[Horaceg]

Six quarters?

Same as one and a half

 

[Scodog10]

My impressions
Players missing - top of my head
- Backs missing Roughead, Maynard, Crisp, Howe, Langdon, Murphy
- Forwards missing Mihocek, De Goey, Stephenson, Elliott, Reid
- Mids missing Phillips
Others Varcoe, Greenwood, Broomhead
So a lot of senior players missing in the back and forward half.


Positives
- Best players - Moore (by a country mile. He'll be next feature on 'The Grind' I am told), Steele, Pendles, Hoskin-Elliott

- I thought Cal Brown was busy, Wilson can kick goals but I am not sure how he fits at his height/weight (but he has put on ~10kg since joining but is still light), Quaynor was the best of the defenders who are in line for a Rd 1 role (vs Noble who was also OK, Shaz). Keane took a couple of nice marks and kicked OK. Bianco did a couple of nice things but got caught a couple of times too. Needs to release quicker at this standard. Of note, Will Kelly played back all night because of our undersized back line.

Negatives
- Tall forwards were ineffectual. Between Cameron, Cox, Lynch they flew one handed all night. This needs to change. I think to Cox's credit, he was blocked and manhandled. He will bring the ball to ground. By contrast, Casboult's size exposed our young defenders. Smaller forwards need to be there to crumb. Thomas did it well a couple of times. Daicos once or twice, but generally Carlton just ran it out

- Connection with Grundy's hit out still generally poor. Hurt us early in the game in particular. I note that Hamish McIntosh was Ruck coach for Carlton. I still think we badly undervalue this role. Pebbles isn't cut out to be a ruck coach and our stoppage work is pretty crappy. This is our biggest area for improvement.

- Our midfield was strong (Pendles, Steele, Adams, Treloar, Wills) yet was probably beaten.

- Cox and Tohill kicked the ball like blokes who were completely foreign to the game at times.

- I missed the 1Q, so missed Sier getting hurt.

- BTW we were badly beaten by Geelong last week too FWIW. Geelong's bigger bodies again made a difference.

Thanks for the input AP. The main reason I wanted to respond though was to express my bemusement at you referencing Lynch, Cox and Cameron as tall forwards. They’re ruckman. Playing them in the forward half doesn’t change that and it comes as little surprise that they weren’t as impactful as Casboult who’s spent the better part of a decade in the system as a KPF not to mention he has the best dukes in the game.

We have a once in a generation ruckman who spends 90% of games on the ball so there’s no need to tinker with carrying ruckman masquerading as forwards. We’re better off going for more traditional KPF types (Kelly, Wilson once he fills out, Reid and Murphy) with Mihocek offering ruck support ala Brown. It will give us a more disruptive mix in the front half and prevent us from being so stagnant.

I absolutely agree on the points you made re Rocca. The only further comment from me though was that we also don’t operate a stoppage system such as Hawthorn did in the early part of the last decade. It’s very loose so whilst I’m with you that change is absolutely needed I’m not convinced it’s necessarily ruck coaching. I think there’s probably more value in bringing in a skill acquisition specialist/ data analyst to work on where the ball tracks from stoppages and hitout heat mapping. Ultimately there’s not much value add in going from a guy with disrupting the relationship Grundy and Rocca have only to tell Grundy he needs to spread stoppages more with his hitouts, IMO.

It sounds like we’re tracking well overall though with no setbacks since Varcoe’s shoulder, touching copious wood, and players building into the season. We have a weak U21 crop so I think it’s a bit rough to expect much from developing youngsters and our focus needs to be on the few high end talents we have that got a full pre-season in. Two of those went alright (Wilson and IQ) which is pleasing and if Murphy can show signs over the next 3 weeks that’ll do me.

 

[neilk]

Thanks for the input AP. The main reason I wanted to respond though was to express my bemusement at you referencing Lynch, Cox and Cameron as tall forwards. They’re ruckman. Playing them in the forward half doesn’t change that and it comes as little surprise that they weren’t as impactful as Casboult who’s spent the better part of a decade in the system as a KPF not to mention he has the best dukes in the game.

We have a once in a generation ruckman who spends 90% of games on the ball so there’s no need to tinker with carrying ruckman masquerading as forwards. We’re better off going for more traditional KPF types (Kelly, Wilson once he fills out, Reid and Murphy) with Mihocek offering ruck support ala Brown. It will give us a more disruptive mix in the front half and prevent us from being so stagnant.

I absolutely agree on the points you made re Rocca. The only further comment from me though was that we also don’t operate a stoppage system such as Hawthorn did in the early part of the last decade. It’s very loose so whilst I’m with you that change is absolutely needed I’m not convinced it’s necessarily ruck coaching. I think there’s probably more value in bringing in a skill acquisition specialist/ data analyst to work on where the ball tracks from stoppages and hitout heat mapping. Ultimately there’s not much value add in going from a guy with disrupting the relationship Grundy and Rocca have only to tell Grundy he needs to spread stoppages more with his hitouts, IMO.

It sounds like we’re tracking well overall though with no setbacks since Varcoe’s shoulder, touching copious wood, and players building into the season. We have a weak U21 crop so I think it’s a bit rough to expect much from developing youngsters and our focus needs to be on the few high end talents we have that got a full pre-season in. Two of those went alright (Wilson and IQ) which is pleasing and if Murphy can show signs over the next 3 weeks that’ll do me.

I found the bolded quite disturbing!
I was probably the only one, but I really thought we should have tried to get Casboult when he was available.

 

[pablo disco bar]

I finally know what Wilson looks like
I'm so intrigued know nothing about him

 

[Scodog10]

I found the bolded quite disturbing!
I was probably the only one, but I really thought we should have tried to get Casboult when he was available.

I wasn’t overly keen, but from a list hierarchy perspective it was a smarter move than re-contracting both Reid and Dunn. For instance he’s a much better fit in our forward mix than any of Cox, Lynch or Cameron.

 

[TradeDraft]

Any reasonable fan would realise both sides had 6-8 of their best 22 out.
And that this result means sfa!!!!!

Spot On.

Take no notice of the Score but Media love making something out of Nothing

 

[Albert Parker]

Thanks for the input AP. The main reason I wanted to respond though was to express my bemusement at you referencing Lynch, Cox and Cameron as tall forwards. They’re ruckman. Playing them in the forward half doesn’t change that and it comes as little surprise that they weren’t as impactful as Casboult who’s spent the better part of a decade in the system as a KPF not to mention he has the best dukes in the game.

We have a once in a generation ruckman who spends 90% of games on the ball so there’s no need to tinker with carrying ruckman masquerading as forwards. We’re better off going for more traditional KPF types (Kelly, Wilson once he fills out, Reid and Murphy) with Mihocek offering ruck support ala Brown. It will give us a more disruptive mix in the front half and prevent us from being so stagnant.

I absolutely agree on the points you made re Rocca. The only further comment from me though was that we also don’t operate a stoppage system such as Hawthorn did in the early part of the last decade. It’s very loose so whilst I’m with you that change is absolutely needed I’m not convinced it’s necessarily ruck coaching. I think there’s probably more value in bringing in a skill acquisition specialist/ data analyst to work on where the ball tracks from stoppages and hitout heat mapping. Ultimately there’s not much value add in going from a guy with disrupting the relationship Grundy and Rocca have only to tell Grundy he needs to spread stoppages more with his hitouts, IMO.

It sounds like we’re tracking well overall though with no setbacks since Varcoe’s shoulder, touching copious wood, and players building into the season. We have a weak U21 crop so I think it’s a bit rough to expect much from developing youngsters and our focus needs to be on the few high end talents we have that got a full pre-season in. Two of those went alright (Wilson and IQ) which is pleasing and if Murphy can show signs over the next 3 weeks that’ll do me.

I understand the point that you are making, they'd be better placed to play the ruck role, but describing these guys as tall forwards, when
- that is the role they played for 85-90% of the time they were on the field on Thursday; and
- that is also the role they'd play in the event that Grundy is available in the seniors
seems a reasonable description under the circumstances and one that shouldn't cause you too much bemusement.

That's also the description used on the Collingwood website to describe Mason Cox too (Key Forward), ironically the tallest of the lot of them, albeit Cameron and Lynch are labelled as Rucks.

You may be right, Reid if available, may be the better solution to accompany Mihocek up forward this season. I think we need someone stronger overhead and in a contested situation to play the second forward role than Murphy or Kelly are at present. It's a pity that Reid's body and kicking have proven so unreliable. I think it is the belief within the club that Cox causes opposition defenders to panic and by bringing the ball to ground he opens up opportunities for our other forwards. I'd rather find a forward to clunks his marks more.

I think Grundy has the ability to set us up for stoppages. He get's first crack at us controlling the area by directing his tapwork to our advantage. I do think a superior ruck coach would be advantageous given Grundy gets plenty of hitouts. I have also had this idea shared with me by someone who is close to a member of our coaching panel and a former ruckman in his day. Would someone like Scott Wynd be available for instance?

BTW I am equally bemused that you suggest Mihocek, at 192cm, as our ruck support when we have Reid 196cm, Roughead 200cm, Moore 203cm playing alongside. ;-)

 

[Scodog10]

I understand the point that you are making, they'd be better placed to play the ruck role, but describing these guys as tall forwards, when
- that is the role they played for 85-90% of the time they were on the field on Thursday; and
- that is also the role they'd play in the event that Grundy is available in the seniors
seems a reasonable description under the circumstances and one that shouldn't cause you too much bemusement.

That's also the description used on the Collingwood website to describe Mason Cox too (Key Forward), ironically the tallest of the lot of them, albeit Cameron and Lynch are labelled as Rucks.

You may be right, Reid if available, may be the better solution to accompany Mihocek up forward this season. I think we need someone stronger overhead and in a contested situation to play the second forward role than Murphy or Kelly are at present. It's a pity that Reid's body and kicking have proven so unreliable. I think it is the belief within the club that Cox causes opposition defenders to panic and by bringing the ball to ground he opens up opportunities for our other forwards. I'd rather find a forward to clunks his marks more.

I think Grundy has the ability to set us up for stoppages. He get's first crack at us controlling the area by directing his tapwork to our advantage. I do think a superior ruck coach would be advantageous given Grundy gets plenty of hitouts. I have also had this idea shared with me by someone who is close to a member of our coaching panel and a former ruckman in his day. Would someone like Scott Wynd be available for instance?

BTW I am equally bemused that you suggest Mihocek, at 192cm, as our ruck support when we have Reid 196cm, Roughead 200cm, Moore 203cm playing alongside. ;-)

Bemusement not so much in your use of the term, but rather the clubs because if they’re the forward targets it’s clear what the club feels to be the case. For instance Blair ticks more of the boxes to play as a KPF than any of those 3 because he had great leading patterns, was able to create separation, was good on the lead, he knew how to get set and had great hands overhead. The only metric he didn’t have was height which isn’t a key parameter for the ability to fill the role.

I actually noted that in some of your commentary on Kelly the other day about 198cm not being the right size for the role. Once blokes start head butting the ball in ruck contests that measurement will interest me, but for now there are other metrics I prefer for such roles. At 192cm Mihocek for instance lacks a whopping 2cm on Brown who is the best second ruck we’ve had in my time supporting the club (slightly ahead of Rocca). What you need to way up with your second ruck as to whether you play a ruck/ fwd or fwd/ ruck is the number of minutes they get exposed against pure ruckman. Given the game time Grundy plays the gain we make in having better quality KPF’s outstrips the losses we have when he’s up against say a Soldo or Ceglar.

I do find it interesting though that the club view more value in directing Grundy than those around him, but I don’t always agree with decisions of the club and I don’t think it’s really necessary for them or I to be correct.

 

[Albert Parker]

Got it re bemusement. To some extent the club may have played Cameron/Lynch/Cox (if only we had another Cameron or lynch as key forwards!) because Reid was unavailable and DeGoey, elliott, Mihocek etc too.

I don't think I suggested Kelly at 198cm is not the right size for the role. By contrast, it is about perfect for height for the modern KPP for mine. He needs more size/strength though to be effective. I like that his endurance is competitive, making him also more likely to be of value.

 

[Go Woods]

exactly. Who scored what wasn't even the point. It was more about trialing stuff, getting the boys a run around, playing some kids. Its the media that makes it out more than it is.

For the Pies it was all about giving youngsters Wilson, Kelly, Cameron Quaynor,Lynch,Keane,Tohill, Bianco, Rantall and next tier players Brown brothers, Daicos and co a full senior hit out.

 

[Go Woods]

Got it re bemusement. To some extent the club may have played Cameron/Lynch/Cox (if only we had another Cameron or lynch as key forwards!) because Reid was unavailable and DeGoey, elliott, Mihocek etc too.

I don't think I suggested Kelly at 198cm is not the right size for the role. By contrast, it is about perfect for height for the modern KPP for mine. He needs more size/strength though to be effective. I like that his endurance is competitive, making him also more likely to be of value.

Kelly should be the obvious successor to Roughy, unless he tears it up at FF in the VFL.

 

[Pragmatic Shill]

Thanks for the input AP. The main reason I wanted to respond though was to express my bemusement at you referencing Lynch, Cox and Cameron as tall forwards. They’re ruckman. Playing them in the forward half doesn’t change that and it comes as little surprise that they weren’t as impactful as Casboult who’s spent the better part of a decade in the system as a KPF not to mention he has the best dukes in the game.

We have a once in a generation ruckman who spends 90% of games on the ball so there’s no need to tinker with carrying ruckman masquerading as forwards. We’re better off going for more traditional KPF types (Kelly, Wilson once he fills out, Reid and Murphy) with Mihocek offering ruck support ala Brown. It will give us a more disruptive mix in the front half and prevent us from being so stagnant.

I absolutely agree on the points you made re Rocca. The only further comment from me though was that we also don’t operate a stoppage system such as Hawthorn did in the early part of the last decade. It’s very loose so whilst I’m with you that change is absolutely needed I’m not convinced it’s necessarily ruck coaching. I think there’s probably more value in bringing in a skill acquisition specialist/ data analyst to work on where the ball tracks from stoppages and hitout heat mapping. Ultimately there’s not much value add in going from a guy with disrupting the relationship Grundy and Rocca have only to tell Grundy he needs to spread stoppages more with his hitouts, IMO.

It sounds like we’re tracking well overall though with no setbacks since Varcoe’s shoulder, touching copious wood, and players building into the season. We have a weak U21 crop so I think it’s a bit rough to expect much from developing youngsters and our focus needs to be on the few high end talents we have that got a full pre-season in. Two of those went alright (Wilson and IQ) which is pleasing and if Murphy can show signs over the next 3 weeks that’ll do me.

Best comment I've read on this forum for quite some time.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I think Grundy has the ability to set us up for stoppages. He get's first crack at us controlling the area by directing his tapwork to our advantage. I do think a superior ruck coach would be advantageous given Grundy gets plenty of hitouts. I have also had this idea shared with me by someone who is close to a member of our coaching panel and a former ruckman in his day. Would someone like Scott Wynd be available for instance?

I do find it interesting though that the club view more value in dircapatiliseecting Grundy than those around him, but I don’t always agree with decisions of the club and I don’t think it’s really necessary for them or I to be correct.

This is interesting, or may I say bemusing. We literally have a league wide dominant ruck that throughout last we could not take advantage of.Yeah very Collingwood of us. I'd argue that given his ruck ability and nous he could coach himself.

The real bemusement for me has been wasting such opportunity, maybe the match committee and coaching panel need to look at devising plans in scenarios to take said advantage.

It almost mirrors wc of 15, NN was so dominant in the tap that teams like Hawthorn literally outroved their opponents to take advantage of NN. It's becoming piestrating watching the 'best midfield of all time' not able to capatalise on itself.

Ruck coach is not required, not for Grundy at least, if anything he could and probably should be passing wise words and actions to his underlings, hope he is. We didn't click at all last year apart from a few quarters here and there, IF we can get the ruck midfield working to it's what should be advantage we're indisputable contenders.

C'mon Pies don't waste another ****** window, it's gettin old now.

 

[TradeDraft]

Problem is I don't think Club Rates Taps by Ruckman.

Grundy has come sort of a Ruck Coach as Been Reported that Grundy been spending lot of time with Max Lynch over the Pre-Season

 

[Carringbush2010]

Problem is I don't think Club Rates Taps by Ruckman.

Grundy has come sort of a Ruck Coach as Been Reported that Grundy been spending lot of time with Max Lynch over the Pre-Season

If not then they should, especially Collingwood. We have a once in a generation Ruckman and we're wasting the advantage.

My hope is that A/ the coaching panel are aware of it and B/ There are plans to get to the point of taking that advantage.

 

[Albert Parker]

Pebbles is our ruck coach. He was a part time ruck at best. Grundy is great around the ground, but his tapwork is nowhere near as adept as Gawn (or even Mason Cox for mine).
Why he persists in tapping it down to his own feet in the manner he does I do not understand. We have no big bodied beasts like Cripps, Dangerfield, Fyfe or to a lesser extent Martin who hit the ball on the run and clear a path with their big bodies. De Goey is the exception for us and is capable.
Again on Thursday night, he knocked it from a boundary throw in for 5-10 metres to a position where there were 3 opposition and none of our own (which is often the case boundary side when we are set up). I do not understand why he/we keep playing in this manner.

 

[Jelly Bean]

This window is almost wasted, especially taking a Beams out with no one to step in to his role. Sier isn't ready, Wills won't get it done. Pendles and Sidey a year further removed from their best. We probably only have this year still as a top four contender before we start experiencing the inevitable dip. And ours will come quickly because of our lack of real talent at the junior levels (due in no small part to trading away four first round picks in our last 6 years).

If we are to contend, then absolutely we need to stop getting beaten in the midfield despite having a dominant hitout ruckman. And that is as much Grundy's fault as our mids.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Pebbles is our ruck coach. He was a part time ruck at best. Grundy is great around the ground, but his tapwork is nowhere near as adept as Gawn (or even Mason Cox for mine).
Why he persists in tapping it down to his own feet in the manner he does I do not understand. We have no big bodied beasts like Cripps, Dangerfield, Fyfe or to a lesser extent Martin who hit the ball on the run and clear a path with their big bodies. De Goey is the exception for us and is capable.
Again on Thursday night, he knocked it from a boundary throw in for 5-10 metres to a position where there were 3 opposition and none of our own (which is often the case boundary side when we are set up). I do not understand why he/we keep playing in this manner.

Treloar can be that 'burst' player, and no he's not a bull like Danger, Fyfe, Cripps or Degoey. IF we can get the ruck / rove connection working we are serious serious contender and not in a real need for that bull type burst player (Degoey). I get the inkling from earlier in this thread there maybe more rotation in the middle in game. Think Elliot and Degoey for one

That gives us unpredictability from a match up perspective, but it also complicates it from our midfield point of view - if we do go down this path the sync will need to be optimum. Get that right which is easier said than done we are a legitimate threat.

 

[TradeDraft]

Pebbles is our ruck coach. He was a part time ruck at best. Grundy is great around the ground, but his tapwork is nowhere near as adept as Gawn (or even Mason Cox for mine).
Why he persists in tapping it down to his own feet in the manner he does I do not understand. We have no big bodied beasts like Cripps, Dangerfield, Fyfe or to a lesser extent Martin who hit the ball on the run and clear a path with their big bodies. De Goey is the exception for us and is capable.
Again on Thursday night, he knocked it from a boundary throw in for 5-10 metres to a position where there were 3 opposition and none of our own (which is often the case boundary side when we are set up). I do not understand why he/we keep playing in this manner.

Because then he can get a Clearance from his Tap

 

[Albert Parker]

Because then he can get a Clearance from his Tap

He can shark it straight out of the ruck for that (and does).
If he knocks it straight down, it favours bigger bodied mids. It doesn't favour a 2m tall player to then bend down and grab it and then get back up and kick it.
For Treloar to be most effective, someone needs to set him into space with a hand ball in order to use his speed.
Could be Sier if available or Tay. De Goey typically grabs the ball and kicks it but is capable of hitting a ground ball at pace.

 

[Pie eyed]

Capital Punishment Australia.

Carlton Paperbag Amnesty.

 

[Scodog10]

Treloar can be that 'burst' player, and no he's not a bull like Danger, Fyfe, Cripps or Degoey. IF we can get the ruck / rove connection working we are serious serious contender and not in a real need for that bull type burst player (Degoey). I get the inkling from earlier in this thread there maybe more rotation in the middle in game. Think Elliot and Degoey for one

That gives us unpredictability from a match up perspective, but it also complicates it from our midfield point of view - if we do go down this path the sync will need to be optimum. Get that right which is easier said than done we are a legitimate threat.

The problem with Treloar in that capacity is he just can’t go with a Yeo, Martin, Dangerfield, Fyfe, Cripps, Bont etc in the same way a Pendles or JDG can. I think the clubs planning is focused on T Brown stepping up and possibly McInnes in 3-5 years time. Aside from the way he moves I don’t see that high end output in Brown and I don’t think anyone wants to wait on McInnes while we’re win now. That means JDG is the man if we’re serious about addressing that shortcoming in 2020.

 

[HeadInTheSand]

That means JDG is the man if we’re serious about addressing that shortcoming in 2020.

Degoey will never be fit enough to be the man. I've seen less fat on a sumo wrestler.

 

[SouthernPie]

If we are to contend, then absolutely we need to stop getting beaten in the midfield despite having a dominant hitout ruckman. And that is as much Grundy's fault as our mids.

After at least 12 month's of discussion on various forums about our inadequate mid-field clearances, I'm still not clear on whose fault it is.
What I do know is that we have two Brownlow winning centre men as our senior and assistant coaches and even they can't seem to rectify the problem.
Does this suggest we just don't have the necessary type of players to excel at centre bounces? Perhaps it's that we have them, but they are never all fit to play at the one time?

 

[Carringbush2010]

The problem with Treloar in that capacity is he just can’t go with a Yeo, Martin, Dangerfield, Fyfe, Cripps, Bont etc in the same way a Pendles or JDG can. I think the clubs planning is focused on T Brown stepping up and possibly McInnes in 3-5 years time. Aside from the way he moves I don’t see that high end output in Brown and I don’t think anyone wants to wait on McInnes while we’re win now. That means JDG is the man if we’re serious about addressing that shortcoming in 2020.

Oh I agree, like I said he's not the same player as JDG, Fyfe, Cripps, Bont etc. So no he's not a 'don't argue' type player, but he does have the ability to break from the pack with ball and all of a sudden he has time and space. Those other types bullock their way free, Cripps and Degoey the most explosive of them. Treloar is the pick pocket who's gone before you know it.

This does not mean we need Treloar in this role for the full 120 mins. I suspect we'll have more in game mid rotations and have Treloar resting wing or HFF or even forward rotating with JDG.

Point being is that we can use that ability, we have the mid cattle to use Treloar in this way instead of sooking we don't have a full time bullock in the middle. Let's use the strengths we've got rather than brooding on what we don't.

I'm willing to bet (and hope) the club would be of the same mindset and will hopefully apply this tactic.