Are Essendon the new Richmond?

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pazza

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I wonder if the same things were said in 1980.

For reference, that was the year pre-Sheedy. We hadn't played in a grand final since 1968 and won it since 1965. We had an ok group of players but greatness seemed a fair bit away.

One thing that needs to happen is that we deal with an issue that has been with the club since the 1970's. Eliminitis.

Here's a damning statistic.

Essendon has contested elimination finals in the following years:

1972
1973
1979
1981
1982
1983
1986
1991
1995
1996
1998
2002
2003
2004
2009
2011
2012
2014
2017

Now how many do you think we have won out of that list? You can count them on one hand.

The very minimum for the club next year has to be top 4.
 

Gavin Excell

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I wonder if the same things were said in 1980.

For reference, that was the year pre-Sheedy. We hadn't played in a grand final since 1968 and won it since 1965. We had an ok group of players but greatness seemed a fair bit away.

One thing that needs to happen is that we deal with an issue that has been with the club since the 1970's. Eliminitis.

Here's a damning statistic.

Essendon has contested elimination finals in the following years:

1972
1973
1979
1981
1982
1983
1986
1991
1995
1996
1998
2002
2003
2004
2009
2011
2012
2014
2017

Now how many do you think we have won out of that list? You can count them on one hand.

The very minimum for the club next year has to be top 4.
5?
 

EDFL follower

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In the AFL era whats the record for the longest a club has gone without winning a final?
Is Richmonds 16 years the record? Essendon look like they are a good chance to top Richmonds effort.
 

King Brown

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'Ninethmond' is largely a myth. If we are talking about who is the new Richmond, Richmond won a final since the game 17 years ago that you are trying to use as some kind of evidence. North's record in finals since Richmond last won one prior to Friday night is a good deal less embarrassing than your own.
I never said anything about 'Premiershipmond' (can you spell ninth?). I said Richmond typically meandered between ninth and last until 2013. Go back read the original post you quoted.

I wouldn't say it is less embarrassing at all. They have a number of 80+ point thrashings in them. Cheap wins that don't go anywhere don't change that. I don't count 2002 - 2004 as substantive finals wins for Essendon. Both North and Essendon are mediocre. No GF appearances for either since at least 2001. Longer for North. A lot more thrashings for them in between.

So far, you've called me a nimwit, a simpleton and a moron. At least you have a good thesaurus. How about you apply your rigorous intellect to saying something sensible in this thread instead of throwing insults at those who disagree with you?
What's a 'nimwit'?

I already said something sensible, you've nitpicked about whether North got thrashed in the same manner as Essendon. If you disagree with Essendon being the new anything, then take the OP to task.
 
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Ron The Bear

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I wonder if the same things were said in 1980.

For reference, that was the year pre-Sheedy. We hadn't played in a grand final since 1968 and won it since 1965. We had an ok group of players but greatness seemed a fair bit away.

One thing that needs to happen is that we deal with an issue that has been with the club since the 1970's. Eliminitis.

Here's a damning statistic.

Essendon has contested elimination finals in the following years:

1972
1973
1979
1981
1982
1983
1986
1991
1995
1996
1998
2002
2003
2004
2009
2011
2012
2014
2017

Now how many do you think we have won out of that list? You can count them on one hand.

The very minimum for the club next year has to be top 4.
Essendon had an extremely young side during the late seventies. The stage was set for a great thinker like Sheedy to pull it all together.
 
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I rate Essendon's list but the reaction to the game was bizarre. 'Oh well, we were beaten by the best, good year overall'.

1. Sydney, while good, came 6th
2. Essendon played some of the most atrocious football I've ever seen in that game. Looked scared and displayed horrible skills.

3. The margin reflects a 1 quarter destruction where the game was already over. Had Sydney been playing for percentage, it likely would have been 100+.
4. Essendon had a soft draw and probably the best run of injuries of any team - making the finals was not that impressive.

Point is, the team is in serious danger not only of a club that accepts mediocrity - which my club does now too - but a suppprter base. I can understand the fans rightly stating that the sky is not fallling, but should at least be able to identify that the effort in that final was pure shit.
 

Ancient Tiger

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Here it is, found it!


Essentially a club fallen behind the times, completely, probably caught up in nostalgia as well.

It's only now improving, after moving to new facilities and Dodoro finally getting some decent picks.

A very disappointing 17 years since 2000 premiership, to be honest.
It's actually amazing that they've bounced back so quickly because they were on their knees from the peptide fiasco. This video shows what a terrible mess they were in.
 

hk89

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I never said anything about 'Premiershipmond'
You said "What was Richmond known for? Finishing 9th at best in between dismal seasons."

Are you seriously saying that isn't a reference to the Premiershipmond myth? And you accused me of not being able to draw logical conclusions from your posts.

(can you spell ninth?)
Apparently not.


I wouldn't say it is less embarrassing at all.
That's because you've forgotten what it means to win a final. North have had some bad finals losses, but they've won some recently, something you can't say. Several of their losses were against teams that finished H&A in the top 4. All of your losses have been against teams that didn't.

You are welcome to your opinion, and I will avoid calling you a nitwit, moron and simpleton for having it, but I think it is wrong.
 

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King Brown

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Y
That's because you've forgotten what it means to win a final. North have had some bad finals losses, but they've won some recently, something you can't say. Several of their losses were against teams that finished H&A in the top 4. All of your losses have been against teams that didn't.
And I don't think finals wins are indicative of anything unless you're making top four after home and away. Western Bulldogs in 2016 notwithstanding.

I respect what Richmond has done this year. I don't respect North or think them as any better than Essendon.
 

Ischenko

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I never said anything about 'Premiershipmond' (can you spell ninth?). I said Richmond typically meandered between ninth and last until 2013. Go back read the original post you quoted.

I wouldn't say it is less embarrassing at all. They have a number of 80+ point thrashings in them. Cheap wins that don't go anywhere don't change that. I don't count 2002 - 2004 as substantive finals wins for Essendon. Both North and Essendon are mediocre. No GF appearances for either since at least 2001. Longer for North. A lot more thrashings for them in between.
Cheap wins? How do you have cheap wins in finals ffs? We came back to beat you, then beat Geelong in 2014. 2015 we accounted for a highly favoured Richmond and then beat Sydney in Sydney, and were a real shot at rolling WC at Subiaco before the umpires got involved. Not to mention soundly accounting for a highly favoured Hawthorn in 2007, whilst staring down the barrel of relocation. Sure there's a few beltings, but interspersed are wins full of guts and character. Your club would kill for just a skerrick of such traits. Instead you took a shortcut that didn't work out but I digress.

You are embarrassing yourself, I get that you're probably still angry but your posting is garbage. There is no comparison that a sane human could make wrt Essendon and North's recent finals records. You sound sad and desperate trying to argue otherwise.
 

hk89

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And I don't think finals wins are indicative of anything unless you're making top four after home and away. Western Bulldogs in 2016 notwithstanding.
Yes, ultimately only the flag matters, but you seemed to be saying North had a more embarrassing recent finals record than you, and neither of you have won a recent flag.

I don't think you'll find many people that think it is less embarrassing to be continually getting bundled out in elimination finals , usually by big margins, against other 5-8 teams than getting knocked out in a prelim against a team that likely finished top 4. For a start, North's average losing margins would probably be much smaller if you took out their losses against H&A top 4 teams (at least that is my guess, haven't crunched the numbers to prove it, but seems reasonable, what I do know is that North deserves some credit for winning games in September, which you haven't managed for a while). If Essendon actually managed to play some top 4 sides during finals you might find Essendon's losing margins are even uglier than what they are now.
 

Mootsy

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We are one of if not the softest team in the league, how many Essendon players are willing to go back with the flight of the ball to take a mark or make a spoil? who puts their head over the pill 100% of the time? how many want to play that real tight and tough contested game like Sydney? who is willing to hurt the opposition players?

Heppell, Zaka, Fantasia, Colyer, Langford, Goddard, Bellchambers:eek: I'm gonna stop before I get crucified.

Sadly our toughest players are the youngsters like McGrath, Francis, Begley, Parish ect
compared to teams like Sydney and Melbourne we are weak as piss.
I can't say i disagree with this at all, and luckily our forward line is very good and we having Hurley, Goddard, Kelly and Baguley that gives us some spine, and i think we have done extremely well to make it to 8th position and to play a final.

- Lack of stamina and lack of enthusiasm to take the game on and to win possession.
- Defensive efforts and teamwork often just breaks down, second efforts, third efforts, this is likely a training or communication failure.
- Contested marking has been awful for some time, we get out marked by small opposition players and look fumbly. (embarrassingly so).
- Our decision making and ability to kick to a target out of defence maintaining possession is often poor.
- We lack inside mids who can win contested ball...
 
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King Brown

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Yes, ultimately only the flag matters, but you seemed to be saying North had a more embarrassing recent finals record than you, and neither of you have won a recent flag.

I don't think you'll find many people that think it is less embarrassing to be continually getting bundled out in elimination finals , usually by big margins, against other 5-8 teams than getting knocked out in a prelim against a team that likely finished top 4. For a start, North's average losing margins would probably be much smaller if you took out their losses against H&A top 4 teams (at least that is my guess, haven't crunched the numbers to prove it, but seems reasonable, what I do know is that North deserves some credit for winning games in September, which you haven't managed for a while). If Essendon actually managed to play some top 4 sides during finals you might find Essendon's losing margins are even uglier than what they are now.
North have lost EFs by 60+ points in 2005, 2012, and 2016. In 2005, they finished fifth and were beaten by eighth placed Port by 87 points at Docklands. That's not their worst EF loss.

You don't get any credit for wins in September unless you make the GF at the least. No one cares about finals wins if they don't amount to anything.
 

joy division

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It was essentially 1st vs 9th in a Final. Sydney are the strongest team in the comp since Rd 6. Essendon have lost to Carlton and Brisbane.
 

Abasi

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Moderator #195
Kelly 34 next year retired
Watson 33 retired
Goddard 32/33
Stanton 31/32 retired
Baguley 30/31
Hocking 30
Leuenberger 29/30
Hooker 29
Howlett 29
Bird 29
Myers 28/29
Bellchambers 28/29

The point is that you can't rely on them. Most clubs vying for a high finish have a strong senior core. More pressure will fall on Heppell/Hurley/Merrett/Daniher and they will be doing well to hold their ground. Next bracket:

Brown 27
McKernan 27
Colyer 26
Dea 26
McNiece 26
Green 25
Jerrett 25

There is a lot of potential dead wood to be cleared out.

What pick does Essendon start at this year? #12? They're in mid-table limbo.
Yep, they have multiple list cloggers in the 28+ group who should be let go/delisted. Myers, Bird, Luenberger, Hocking, on top of Watson, Stanton and Kelly who are already done.

Their 25-27 group is then littered with C graders also.

Their youngsters are their best hope, but they're not going to be able to compete with other sides who are more balanced and have a higher grade of experienced and stronger built players, like Geelong, Sydney, Adelaide, GWS, Port and Richmond amongst others that are on the rise(St Kilda and Melbourne), when it all comes down to it in the next couple of years.

Combine this with not being handed a bottom 4 fixture for 2018 and they'll have a real fight on their hands to play finals in the next few years.
 

hk89

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North have lost EFs by 60+ points in 2005, 2012, and 2016. In 2005, they finished fifth and were beaten by eighth placed Port by 87 points at Docklands. That's not their worst EF loss.
Yes, and you're only EF loss out of the last 4 that was under 60 points was against North, and that had a 45 point tournaround. What does it say for you to lose to what you think is the most embarrassing finalist of recent times? How you can even think to argue this is beyond belief.

You don't get any credit for wins in September unless you make the GF at the least.
When you are talking about who is more embarrassing, I certainly think you do. The competition is not 'who got a flag' (clearly North got closer than you, having played in prelims), it is who is more embarrassing. North won finals. They won finals against you, and they won them recently not at the dawn of the new millennium. You are more embarrassing. It is fairly simple really, even for a simpleton like me.
 

Ron The Bear

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Combine this with not being handed a bottom 4 fixture for 2018 and they'll have a real fight on their hands to play finals in the next few years.
There is potential in this team
Francis(20) Ambrose(26) Ridley(19)
Gleeson(24) Hurley(27) McKenna(21)
Zaharakis(27) Heppell(25) Parish(20)
Fantasia(21) Daniher(23) Stewart(23)
Begley(19) Hooker(29) Tippa(24)
Belly(29) Merrett(22) McGrath(19)

Laverde(22) Mutch(19) Goddard(32) Langford(21)

Want to see this as our best 22 for next season(Before trades and FA).
...but currently averaging 72 games, it can't play finals in 2018. Youth must be promoted next year; the only question is how vigorously.

Think they have the right coach. Worsfold has a proven record with young teams.
 
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King Brown

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Yes, and you're only EF loss out of the last 4 that was under 60 points was against North, and that had a 45 point tournaround. What does it say for you to lose to what you think is the most embarrassing finalist of recent times? How you can even think to argue this is beyond belief.

When you are talking about who is more embarrassing, I certainly think you do. The competition is not 'who got a flag' (clearly North got closer than you, having played in prelims), it is who is more embarrassing. North won finals. They won finals against you, and they won them recently not at the dawn of the new millennium. You are more embarrassing. It is fairly simple really, even for a simpleton like me.
Since when is it more embarrassing for the lower ranked team to lose - I would have thought that was to be expected? North hosted Port in 2005 and lost by 14 goals. This is more embarrassing that Essendon being beaten by Sydney at home. If you're going to count '45 point turn arounds' then North had the same hosting Sydney in 2008 (that year missing out on top four because they were thrashed by Port at home in the last round, a Port that didn't make finals).

North get utterly annihilated in finals more than any other team. This is indisputable fact. You seem to think Essendon's three large losses are greater than North's seven large losses. Sorry, but 7 > 3.

This is what I posted:

getting annihilated in finals is more a North thing.
And you disputed it. Not only that, you disputed it a day after you had already posted in the thread. I'm puzzled - did it take you some time to formulate an argument? Did you note it in your journal: must write long winded boring rebuttal of the third post of the 'Essendon is the new Richmond' thread?
 

blitzer

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Essendon have been poor in finals for sure but we've also come into every game as the underdog - because we've never been 6th or better in any of the recent years we've made the finals and so we've ended up playing interstate for most of them. The likes of Parish, Begley, McGrath, Daniher, Merrett, Tippa, Fantasia etc will all be better for having a game of finals experience under their belt. I think only Daniher out of that group had played one before.

People will have a laugh at our finals record but really the 2014 and previous finals games are fairly irrelevant to our current list. By the time the next set of finals come around (should we make it) I'd be surprised if more than half a dozen of the same players were in our best 22. Most of our best players are all young anyway with a smattering of guys in their late 20's. Out of our over 30's only Goddard played a major role and to be honest - he trailed off the longer the season went.

I think one thing Richmond did show us is how its possible to make really significant gains to your list within a single preseason. Essendon have a clear area of weakness so if we are able to address it then who knows how we will go in 2018. One area we will gain from big time is not having to adjust from having so many players out for a year plus trying to settle a team where many players had not played together before. I heard other coaches using that as an excuse for their poor performances earlier in the season with only a fraction of the changes that we had. It takes time to gel and work together effectively as a unit.
 
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