Are Essendon the new Richmond?

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I rate Essendon's list but the reaction to the game was bizarre. 'Oh well, we were beaten by the best, good year overall'.

1. Sydney, while good, came 6th
2. Essendon played some of the most atrocious football I've ever seen in that game. Looked scared and displayed horrible skills.

3. The margin reflects a 1 quarter destruction where the game was already over. Had Sydney been playing for percentage, it likely would have been 100+.
4. Essendon had a soft draw and probably the best run of injuries of any team - making the finals was not that impressive.

Point is, the team is in serious danger not only of a club that accepts mediocrity - which my club does now too - but a suppprter base. I can understand the fans rightly stating that the sky is not fallling, but should at least be able to identify that the effort in that final was pure shit.
They better not accept that effort.
 

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Topkent

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History is history and they've made a lot of bad history for themselves the past 15 years - The James Hird years was unprecedented.
Not sure on Worsfold, I never watched the Toast closely back in the day and I do think Worsfold has overall done well and got the most the list he currently has, but as good as Sydney were Worsfold's match-ups were diabolical yesterday. Ambrose on Franklin? Hartley on Sinclair? And so on...

A lot of players with their pants pulled down and exposed. Heppell, Myers, Hartley, Z. Merrett, Tippa, all woeful.
There midfield lack grunt and there doesn't seem to be a solution in sight. Who is their raging bull? They take years to develop and they have none. Daniher aside they don't have many KPP's to replace Hooker and Hurley in the coming years. So their window should be open now but their clock is ticking.

They won't make finals next year IMO. And so the pressure will mount on what has been a club best described as a basket case over the journey. With all due respect to Richmond they didn't have a doping regime.
Some terrible points in this post, raging bulls don't take years to develop for one they come into the league ready. Wines Oliver Selwood SPP Cripps etc.
2nd of all name me one club with current KPP depth developing in their reserves who are any good??? I'll wait ....


The answer is no one.
Draft an inside mid and get Rockliff as a free agent and they are bloody close to top 4 next year IMO
 

citizen-erased

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I rate Essendon's list but the reaction to the game was bizarre. 'Oh well, we were beaten by the best, good year overall'.

1. Sydney, while good, came 6th
2. Essendon played some of the most atrocious football I've ever seen in that game. Looked scared and displayed horrible skills.

3. The margin reflects a 1 quarter destruction where the game was already over. Had Sydney been playing for percentage, it likely would have been 100+.
4. Essendon had a soft draw and probably the best run of injuries of any team - making the finals was not that impressive.

Point is, the team is in serious danger not only of a club that accepts mediocrity - which my club does now too - but a suppprter base. I can understand the fans rightly stating that the sky is not fallling, but should at least be able to identify that the effort in that final was pure shit.
I didn't see much from the rooms afterward
But watching dan Houston break down after the game against the eagles made me think we took 2017 as a year of come what may.
7-8 players coming back into the 22. First time under this coach. Playing with kids they've never played with.
Farewell tour for some of them.
2018 should be top 6 or fail in our mindsets
 

citizen-erased

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Kelly 34 next year retired
Watson 33 retired
Goddard 32/33
Stanton 31/32 retired
Baguley 30/31
Hocking 30
Leuenberger 29/30
Hooker 29
Howlett 29
Bird 29
Myers 28/29
Bellchambers 28/29

The point is that you can't rely on them. Most clubs vying for a high finish have a strong senior core. More pressure will fall on Heppell/Hurley/Merrett/Daniher and they will be doing well to hold their ground. Next bracket:

Brown 27
McKernan 27
Colyer 26
Dea 26
McNiece 26
Green 25
Jerrett 25

There is a lot of potential dead wood to be cleared out.

What pick does Essendon start at this year? #12? They're in mid-table limbo.
I feel we gave Watson and Kelly a send off game in a final. Not sure they were sensible selections
Goddard, bags, hooker and Bellchambers would be the only ones on that list we would rely on in 2018

Reckon Myers and Colyer will lose their spots. The remainder don't have them

Begley, laverde, Langford, Francis, Mutch, redman, Ridley, draper. All coming along at the right pace

Will target Kelly and stringer by the sounds of things
Would like a young hbf rebounder too
 
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I didn't see much from the rooms afterward
But watching dan Houston break down after the game against the eagles made me think we took 2017 as a year of come what may.
7-8 players coming back into the 22. First time under this coach. Playing with kids they've never played with.
Farewell tour for some of them.
2018 should be top 6 or fail in our mindsets
I agree. I think with the addition of a top contested ball-winning mid, Essendon should be challenging for the flag in 2019. Too many excuses being made, you'd want to see Woosha try to iron that out rather than perpetuate it by bringing up beating our useless mob in round 5.
 

hk89

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North get utterly annihilated in finals more than any other team. This is indisputable fact. You seem to think Essendon's three large losses are greater than North's seven large losses. Sorry, but 7 > 3.
You seem to think that never winning a final in the last 10 years is less embarrassing than losing some finals and winning some finals, including getting to prelims. You think losing to a team in a final that you think is the worst final performer of recent times (despite having won several finals) doesn't reflect on your inability to be objective on this matter.

Not only that, you disputed it a day after you had already posted in the thread.
Is criticising the order I respond to posts in really how you plan to misdirect from your hilarious claims that a team that won several finals in the last 10 years, including against your team, has a more embarrassing record than your team who has won none in that period?
 

The Dice Man

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I think the bigger question here is... Could Richmond be the new Hawthorn? ;) (Sorry Geelong fans, but you were just never good enough to be rated against the Hawks of the last 30 years, but you knew that already).
 
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It's absurd to call this a failed year by the Bombers. At the start of the season very few except their most diehard supporters were predicting finals. The up and coming clubs were seen to be the Saints and the Dees.
It turned out the Bombers were the building club that made the 8 playing a very attractive brand of footy.
Next year remains to be seen but the signs are good.
To quote their record after removing Sheedy just shows how desperate some people are to portray them as failures.
 

King Brown

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You seem to think that never winning a final in the last 10 years is less embarrassing than losing some finals and winning some finals, including getting to prelims. You think losing to a team in a final that you think is the worst final performer of recent times (despite having won several finals) doesn't reflect on your inability to be objective on this matter.

Is criticising the order I respond to posts in really how you plan to misdirect from your hilarious claims that a team that won several finals in the last 10 years, including against your team, has a more embarrassing record than your team who has won none in that period?
The topic of the thread was whether Essendon resembled Richmond, because Essendon loses badly in finals. My argument was that Essendon didn't resemble Richmond, because Richmond doesn't lose badly in finals. Most of their finals losses have been close run things. The team that does have a bad record for being thumped in finals is North.

I don't particularly care that whether North have had a win or two here and there. Essendon winning an elimination final or more in the past decade would not change the underlying situation of being completely outclassed against better sides, and having an overall poor record.

Essendon finished eighth in 2004 and won an EF, then nearly beat Geelong in the semi final. That doesn't make it a better year than 2017. If anything, 2004 did more to convince the club that we were competitive despite the underlying trend, and set up the next few years of mediocrity.
 
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hk89

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Essendon finished eighth in 2004 and won an EF, then nearly beat Geelong in the semi final. That doesn't make it a better year than 2017.
Depends on how highly your club values winning finals over losing them. Clearly you have a metric that doesn't put a lot of weight on winning, given you seem to think your recent finals record is less embarrassing than Norths.
 

King Brown

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Depends on how highly your club values winning finals over losing them. Clearly you have a metric that doesn't put a lot of weight on winning, given you seem to think your recent finals record is less embarrassing than Norths.
I'd like you to do the sums - who has the worst overall win-loss rate in finals since their last premiership. Essendon or North?

Who has the better percentage?
 

hk89

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I'd like you to do the sums - who has the worst overall win-loss rate in finals since their last premiership. Essendon or North?

Who has the better percentage?
I really can't be bothered going back to the dark ages to look at stats since your last flag win. In the last 10 seasons the comparative finals performance looks like this:
Essendon: Lost 100% of their 4 finals at a percentage of 56%
North: Lost 56% of their 9 finals at a percentage of 76% (winning 4 , including one against Essendon).

It seems to me that only a nitwit, a moron or a simpleton could even think about arguing Essendon has a better recent finals record than North. Don't bother replying, you'll be on ignore, as I don't want to waste any further time arguing the bleeding obvious.
 
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Ischenko

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I love the posters that use the word "recent" This suits their argument. Personally I like the words " true test of time"
Sweet 16, come at us.
Yep, who could forget 1897, 1901, 1911, 1912, 1923, 1924, 1942, 1946, 1949, 1950, 1962 and 1965. You definitely shit all over North's finals record from 1897 to 1924 particularly - I'm actually mortified by how lop-sided it is in your favour. And the 1950 grand final still really burns. Can't argue with the facts, kudos to you.
 

Ischenko

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I really can't be bothered going back to the dark ages to look at stats since your last flag win. In the last 10 seasons the comparative finals performance looks like this:
Essendon: Lost 100% of their 4 finals at a percentage of 56%
North: Lost 50% of their 10 finals at a percentage of 76% (winning 5 , including one against Essendon).

It seems to me that only a nitwit, a moron or a simpleton could even think about arguing Essendon has a better recent finals record than North. Don't bother replying, you'll be on ignore, as I don't want to waste any further time arguing the bleeding obvious.
In fairness, our record since 2007 is 5 wins (including vs Essendon of course) and 7 losses, of which 5 were beltings. So not amazing, but overall not too bad, and certainly superior to Essendon. I watched four of them live, and can only laugh at posters who say that such wins are cheap or meaningless. If you think any finals win is meaningless it can only mean that you don't remember what it feels like.
 

hk89

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In fairness, our record since 2007 is 5 wins (including vs Essendon of course) and 7 losses, of which 5 were beltings. So not amazing, but overall not too bad, and certainly superior to Essendon. I watched four of them live, and can only laugh at posters who say that such wins are cheap or meaningless. If you think any finals win is meaningless it can only mean that you don't remember what it feels like.
I guess you are including 2007 which was a bad year for you finals wise, especially from a margin point of view, but that was outside the 10 season window I looked at (by 1 season). I used the 10 seasons from 2008-2017, but it does look like I added up the wins wrong though, and that it should have been 4 wins 5 losses not 5 wins 5 losses (checked the percentage calculation, and that seems like it was correct). Edited my post to reflect the correct numbers.

While having some logic to it, I agree that it is a very simplistic view to say any finals win is meaningless if you don't make the grand final. You beat us easily in the semi in 2007, but our EF win over Adelaide that year was a building block for winning the flag the next year. It is very hard to go into a finals series and win a flag if you haven't even won a single final in recent times.

North probably over achieved in finals compared to their list at the time, and that let them run into a few thumpings in prelims that finals underperformers were not receiving because they were always exiting in the EFs. Which isn't to say North didn't have some poor showings before the prelim, but in a comparison with other team's finals performances, ignoring the fact that you made 2 prelims in the last 10 seasons (3 prelims in the last 11 seasons) by saying "who cares, they didn't win the flag" is laughable. Those prelims you made in 2014 and 2015 were from 6th and 8th spot, which are achievements in themselves. Those two final series alone set you head and shoulders above Essendon in the last 10 years. Putting both Sydney and Geelong out in straight sets in successive years was a beautiful thing to watch.
 
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SherbertLemon

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Who gives a shit. Every man and their dog knows essendon has been shit for over a decade. So shit, that when we've made finals we've been a non event.

Well, we've finally got a decent young side and we're building. Judge them if they can't win a final over the next couple of years, and we'll be the next Richmond.

It's not exactly ground breaking analysis. It's just grand standing.

But the hilarious part is the only stat that matters;

Premierships in the last 15 years;

Essendon 0
Nor'th Melb'n 0

So let's dispense with the smug arrogance and enjoy our relative performance for the next 5 years shall we?
 

NathanMX

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Who gives a shit. Every man and their dog knows essendon has been shit for over a decade. So shit, that when we've made finals we've been a non event.

Well, we've finally got a decent young side and we're building. Judge them if they can't win a final over the next couple of years, and we'll be the next Richmond.

It's not exactly ground breaking analysis. It's just grand standing.

But the hilarious part is the only stat that matters;

Premierships in the last 15 years;

Essendon 0
Nor'th Melb'n 0


So let's dispense with the smug arrogance and enjoy our relative performance for the next 5 years shall we?
Could use the same logic for many teams

Flags in last 15 years

Essendon 0
North Melbourne 0
Richmond 0
GWS 0
West Coast 0
Adelaide 0

Does not necessarily make you better or even the equal of any of those teams this year or into the future either.

And if you don't win a final in the next 3 years you will be Richmond with the red sash :p
 
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