Are South African racial quotas hurting the game?

[Sea fog]

The govt. is deflecting though, they have not put money into grassroots and like to make cosmetic changes at the top.

Rabada is actually a product of a top cricket school and comes from a privileged background. He is not a result of their programs.

Ditto Gibbs.

The fact remains though, that having only five places available in the team for one race is odious.

 

[Donnie Darko]

These players are being forced out of S.A cricket and are taking deals in England.

 

[ioppolo]

Big names he says.

 

[Scotland]

I wonder who will be next? Abbott isn't really a 'big' name but he is currently in the test side and is under 30. That's not the sort of player you want to lose. Morkel hasn't played a test for a year and is 32, Steyn who is currently injured is 33. Pace bowling seems to be where black Africans excel the most to date, so perhaps these guys will go down the rugby union path and finish their careers abroad and sacrifice further test caps for a fatter wallet.

Be interesting if any non-whites bail, too. Someone like Dane Piedt who is around the fringes might be tempted regardless of being a coloured player.

 

[Gough]

Definitely one for the unpopular cricket opinions thread but if you take the whites out of South African cricket the country would lose test status in no time. You don't don't defeat ingrained racism and structural inequality by selecting players based on race.

Why can't blacks play cricket? Your mindset isn't a million miles away from that of those whose policies caused this situation in the first place.

 

[carnthemlions]

Why can't blacks play cricket? Your mindset isn't a million miles away from that of those whose policies caused this situation in the first place.

Doesn't say anything explicitly, but if you read everything Scotland's posted in this thread there's a pretty clear pattern. Cecil Rhodes was probably a good bloke, keep the coloureds in their place etc.

 

[JackOutback]

To be fair, I think he's saying the team would be a rabble in the short term and would not be Test quality, not that blacks can't play cricket or that they wouldn't eventually step up.

 

[The_Reaper]

Doesn't say anything explicitly, but if you read everything Scotland's posted in this thread there's a pretty clear pattern. Cecil Rhodes was probably a good bloke, keep the coloureds in their place etc.

So one can't argue against the quota system without being a white supremacist then?

May as well close this thread then.

 

[ioppolo]

So one can't argue against the quota system without being a white supremacist then?

May as well close this thread then.

Mind set of most do gooders and SJWs is it not?

 

[Gough]

So one can't argue against the quota system without being a white supremacist then?

May as well close this thread then.

Not at all, but the whole without the white guys the team would cease to be of Test standard reeks of the same sort of paternalistic racism of the English whites who all hated Apartheid, but you know you just can't trust those blacks to run things properly. They might have managed to avoid being painted as the villains of the piece, but they enabled the Nationals to do their worst.

 

[Sea fog]

Big names he says.

If de Kock went it would be a big name and he is still young enough to represent England down the track.

Cook will probably go when he's cooked and they have some other young promising white batsmen in the ranks. They might be targeted to play for England as well, for example Aidan Markram. They have already snapped up Colin Ackerman who showed promise in the junior ranks.

Maybe England and SA could merge!

 

[The_Reaper]

Not at all, but the whole without the white guys the team would cease to be of Test standard reeks of the same sort of paternalistic racism of the English whites who all hated Apartheid, but you know you just can't trust those blacks to run things properly. They might have managed to avoid being painted as the villains of the piece, but they enabled the Nationals to do their worst.

I read it as the fact that currently most of the players and the depth are still white and losing all of that in the near future would be in real danger of going down the same path as Zimbabwe in cricketing terms.

 

[JackOutback]

I read it as the fact that currently most of the players and the depth are still white and losing all of that in the near future would be in real danger of going down the same path as Zimbabwe in cricketing terms.

That's the way I read it; but at the same time, carnthemlions pointed to a pattern of posting behaviour, not just the one individual post.

 

[carnthemlions]

So one can't argue against the quota system without being a white supremacist then?

May as well close this thread then.

If you think Scotland has just been arguing against the quota system, you've missed a fair bit. And if that's how you interpret my post, I really can't help you.

I read it as the fact that currently most of the players and the depth are still white and losing all of that in the near future would be in real danger of going down the same path as Zimbabwe in cricketing terms.

Scotland previously said this about Zimbabwe:

It will make sense to phase out the quotas when the talent pool of whites becomes so shallow (due to mass migration) that they stop getting picked.

Give it another decade or two and it will be Zimbabwe Mk II if the wrong paths are traveled down.

If you understand the post-colonial history of Zimbabwe, it should be pretty clear that any references to "Zimbabwe mk2" are incredibly tone-deaf, or aren't really about cricket.

That's the way I read it; but at the same time, carnthemlions pointed to a pattern of posting behaviour, not just the one individual post.

Exactly.

Mind set of most do gooders and SJWs is it not?

*SJW's
Amateur.

 

[Freo Big Fella]

If you understand the post-colonial history of Zimbabwe, it should be pretty clear that any references to "Zimbabwe mk2" are incredibly tone-deaf, or aren't really about cricket..

?

One bad Mugabe appointee to head their cricket board was enough to turn Zimbabwe from a relatively competitive team in 2000 to a walking punchline that was suspended from Test Cricket a decade later.

It'll take some serious strategic planning for CSA to succeed going down the same path.

 

[nobbyiscool]

Mind set of most do gooders and SJWs is it not?

People should think about what the deeper meaning of these phrases are and perhaps realise how ******* idiotic you look trying to use it as an insult.

 

[Scotland]

Why can't blacks play cricket? Your mindset isn't a million miles away from that of those whose policies caused this situation in the first place.

Doesn't say anything explicitly, but if you read everything Scotland's posted in this thread there's a pretty clear pattern. Cecil Rhodes was probably a good bloke, keep the coloureds in their place etc.

You guys see what you want to see from your high horses.

To be fair, I think he's saying the team would be a rabble in the short term and would not be Test quality, not that blacks can't play cricket or that they wouldn't eventually step up.

So one can't argue against the quota system without being a white supremacist then?

May as well close this thread then.

Amazing how much easier it is to comprehend things when you aren't just looking to be outraged.

I know people don't like facts any more but cricket is a colonial game. No British Empire, no cricket in India, South Africa, West Indies etc. In South Africa cricket was historically a white sport and the domain of just the whites. Apparently pointing either of these things out means you agree that that pre-1990s South Africa had it right and all blacks should be as per The Gods Must Be Crazy. Not enough rolleyes emojis to deal with that one.

Donald, Pollock, Kallis, Kirsten, Rhodes, Gibbs, Cronje, Wessels, Boucher... not a whole lot of melanin there. The first good black player I can remember (and coincidentally the first black African to represent RSA in test cricket) is Makhaya Ntini who debuted in 1998. South Africa in the time of Ntini with a maximum of 5 white players would have been a joke. The black/coloured talent pool was very shallow 20 years ago and consequently the black/coloured talent pool of coaches etc. today which comes from people who played in that era and earlier is just as shallow and that generation is crucial to the future of South African cricket.

It will make sense to phase out the quotas when the talent pool of whites becomes so shallow (due to mass migration) that they stop getting picked.

Give it another decade or two and it will be Zimbabwe Mk II if the wrong paths are traveled down.

The phrase 'packing for Perth' didn't come out of nowhere. There's been a significant migration of skilled migrants out of South Africa which has created a brain drain. If the pattern continues with cricket then it doesn't bode well for the future. Johan Botha is only 34 and has already achieved Australian citizenship. He hasn't represented South Africa in any format since 2012 so isn't a loss as a player, but he's one fewer potential coach. He'll end up working with Aussie kids in a year or two, and South Africans black, white or otherwise miss out. Less than 100 people have represented South Africa in test cricket post-apartheid, so they're not really in a position to let them go freely. Steyn, Morkel, ABdV etc. are all in the position where they'll be courted to play/coach outside South Africa. It would be devastating for the country if they upped and left. Yes they'd be courted without quotas because money and quality of life is better outside South Africa, but if they if they become disillusioned with the establishment that won't help. Little Abraham de Villiers Jr playing for England or Australia won't help either.

I'll reiterate and hope it sinks in for some, but 25 years ago South Africa had a test team of 11 players picked from whatever percentage of the 5 million white people played the sport at the time. Today South Africa have a test team of 11 players picked from whatever percentage of 55 million people that play the sport. Philander, de Kock, Amla, Rabada - these guys are seriously good cricketers. Duminy, Bavuma and a few others are OK, but no more memorable than white equivalents like McKenzie and Dippenaar. If I was picking a best XI of the 1990s it would be all white. If I was picking a best XI of the 2000s I'd have Ntini and Amla in it. And a bunch of mediocre players. If I was picking a best XI of the 2010s then Amla, Philander, de Kock, Rabada would all be in the mix. That's progress in my book coming from a base where 90% of the population weren't even allowed to play. But it's not fast enough for some who just want to see the team full of black faces. If South Africa build from the platform they have they'll become a superpower. If they destroy what is good because it's white then they'll go the way of Zimbabwe.

 

[JackOutback]

You guys see what you want to see from your high horses.




Amazing how much easier it is to comprehend things when you aren't just looking to be outraged.

I know people don't like facts any more but cricket is a colonial game. No British Empire, no cricket in India, South Africa, West Indies etc. In South Africa cricket was historically a white sport and the domain of just the whites. Apparently pointing either of these things out means you agree that that pre-1990s South Africa had it right and all blacks should be as per The Gods Must Be Crazy. Not enough rolleyes emojis to deal with that one.

Donald, Pollock, Kallis, Kirsten, Rhodes, Gibbs, Cronje, Wessels, Boucher... not a whole lot of melanin there. The first good black player I can remember (and coincidentally the first black African to represent RSA in test cricket) is Makhaya Ntini who debuted in 1998. South Africa in the time of Ntini with a maximum of 5 white players would have been a joke. The black/coloured talent pool was very shallow 20 years ago and consequently the black/coloured talent pool of coaches etc. today which comes from people who played in that era and earlier is just as shallow and that generation is crucial to the future of South African cricket.



The phrase 'packing for Perth' didn't come out of nowhere. There's been a significant migration of skilled migrants out of South Africa which has created a brain drain. If the pattern continues with cricket then it doesn't bode well for the future. Johan Botha is only 34 and has already achieved Australian citizenship. He hasn't represented South Africa in any format since 2012 so isn't a loss as a player, but he's one fewer potential coach. He'll end up working with Aussie kids in a year or two, and South Africans black, white or otherwise miss out. Less than 100 people have represented South Africa in test cricket post-apartheid, so they're not really in a position to let them go freely. Steyn, Morkel, ABdV etc. are all in the position where they'll be courted to play/coach outside South Africa. It would be devastating for the country if they upped and left. Yes they'd be courted without quotas because money and quality of life is better outside South Africa, but if they if they become disillusioned with the establishment that won't help. Little Abraham de Villiers Jr playing for England or Australia won't help either.

I'll reiterate and hope it sinks in for some, but 25 years ago South Africa had a test team of 11 players picked from whatever percentage of the 5 million white people played the sport at the time. Today South Africa have a test team of 11 players picked from whatever percentage of 55 million people that play the sport. Philander, de Kock, Amla, Rabada - these guys are seriously good cricketers. Duminy, Bavuma and a few others are OK, but no more memorable than white equivalents like McKenzie and Dippenaar. If I was picking a best XI of the 1990s it would be all white. If I was picking a best XI of the 2000s I'd have Ntini and Amla in it. And a bunch of mediocre players. If I was picking a best XI of the 2010s then Amla, Philander, de Kock, Rabada would all be in the mix. That's progress in my book coming from a base where 90% of the population weren't even allowed to play. But it's not fast enough for some who just want to see the team full of black faces. If South Africa build from the platform they have they'll become a superpower. If they destroy what is good because it's white then they'll go the way of Zimbabwe.

Just to be clear, I understood what you were saying, but I don't agree with your overall point.

It's interesting to see your best XIs of the '90s, '00s and '10s; we see an increasing number of black players. That would suggest the quota system is working in producing black players of Test quality. The racial quota is not new, it's just an expansion; it's been working so far, so who's to say it won't keep working?

 

[to1994]

The issue isn't just the quota system itself but the fact that SA cricket are going to need to do a hell of a lot of work to ensure there's a big interest in taking up cricket outside the private school system.

It's easy to say there's more coloured people in SA then not, therefore by default therefore more talent then in white coloured by numbers but unless those peoples are getting coached and actually want to play cricket then that doesn't matter at all.

 

[to1994]

Not at all, but the whole without the white guys the team would cease to be of Test standard reeks of the same sort of paternalistic racism of the English whites who all hated Apartheid, but you know you just can't trust those blacks to run things properly. They might have managed to avoid being painted as the villains of the piece, but they enabled the Nationals to do their worst.

Hard to agree with that, maybe as a blanket statement without any evidence it is but I think there's some pretty compelling stuff to back that up. I have no doubt if everyone in the country was interested in cricket and getting proper training then the vast majority of the team and depth would be coloured but the fact is it's not how it is over there.

There's not much interest outside the private school system when it comes to choosing cricket as your primary sport, I'm certainly not blaming coloured people for that, it's up to Cricket South Africa to build that interest with the rest of the population if they want to stay competitive long term.

 

[Scotland]

Just to be clear, I understood what you were saying, but I don't agree with your overall point.

It's interesting to see your best XIs of the '90s, '00s and '10s; we see an increasing number of black players. That would suggest the quota system is working in producing black players of Test quality. The racial quota is not new, it's just an expansion; it's been working so far, so who's to say it won't keep working?

I see that as a bit of correlation equaling causation as it's not the only factor in play. I'd also contend that as the number of good black/coloured players increases the need for quotas decreases. It's backward thinking IMO to want to enforce the selection of more black players when more black players are earning selection on merit anyway. If we fast forward to the team of the 2020s and it's over 6 black/coloured players what then? Does the quota go away or do they enforce a stronger quota still? Growing participation and opportunity is one thing, manipulating the racial make-up to an ideal sounds a bit like what they had before...

Piedt, Tahir, Tsotsobe, Petersen, Bavuma, Khan, Duminy, Prince, Rudolph etc. all have pretty mediocre records. Are they proof the system is working or not working?

 

[JackOutback]

I see that as a bit of correlation equaling causation as it's not the only factor in play. I'd also contend that as the number of good black/coloured players increases the need for quotas decreases. It's backward thinking IMO to want to enforce the selection of more black players when more black players are earning selection on merit anyway. If we fast forward to the team of the 2020s and it's over 6 black/coloured players what then? Does the quota go away or do they enforce a stronger quota still? Growing participation and opportunity is one thing, manipulating the racial make-up to an ideal sounds a bit like what they had before...

Piedt, Tahir, Tsotsobe, Petersen, Bavuma, Khan, Duminy, Prince, Rudolph etc. all have pretty mediocre records. Are they proof the system is working or not working?

The intent would be for quotas to decrease as representation increases; I think we are probably seeing the maximum quota level unless, for some reason, things go backward. As pointed out, it's a lot more complex than quotas, with funding and coaching at school level equally important in getting you kids to take up the game in the first place.

 

[Scotland]

The issue isn't just the quota system itself but the fact that SA cricket are going to need to do a hell of a lot of work to ensure there's a big interest in taking up cricket outside the private school system.

It's easy to say there's more coloured people in SA then not, therefore by default therefore more talent then in white coloured by numbers but unless those peoples are getting coached and actually want to play cricket then that doesn't matter at all.

Agree with this.

There are a couple of key questions they need to answer.

1. Do they want cricket to remain the realm of the private school system?

2a. If yes, do they want the private school system to grow or is it just about replacing white faces with black ones?

2b. If no, then what is the plan for development and administration going forward?

 

[Zach Package]

I wonder who will be next? Abbott isn't really a 'big' name but he is currently in the test side and is under 30. That's not the sort of player you want to lose. Morkel hasn't played a test for a year and is 32, Steyn who is currently injured is 33. Pace bowling seems to be where black Africans excel the most to date, so perhaps these guys will go down the rugby union path and finish their careers abroad and sacrifice further test caps for a fatter wallet.

Be interesting if any non-whites bail, too. Someone like Dane Piedt who is around the fringes might be tempted regardless of being a coloured player.

I could see it being Morkel. Maybe he takes up a Kolpak, Roz gets a hosting gig in the UK and they both move everything over there.

Given personnel at the moment you can basically only have one white bowler in the side, and it's going to be Steyn if fit. If he could get a 3-4 year deal with a county that's probably preferable to squad depth with the national side for half that time.

 

[Gough]

This also shouldn't be seen in isolation as some sort of attack on cricket. This is part of a process that is happening at every level throughout the country.