Are there too many Victorian teams?

[Slatts]

Just having a look at membership figures for Victorian teams Vs Non-Victorian teams.
Interesting....
Apart from Essendon, Every Interstate side has more members than every Victorian side.
The major states have one or two sides for the WHOLE state to follow whereas Victoria has ten teams for supporters to be divided up into.

Granted, Victoria is still the most AFL driven state in OZ but some Vic. teams have pitiful membership NO.'s compared to interstate sides. Teams such as Geelong, WB, NM, are a long way behind. Most teams have recorded drops in membership NO's hence why don't we merge a few sides before the agonising painful death of them.
ANY SUGGESTIONS?
There are also some clubs struggling financially which may never be fixed. (Gee)
I think WB and GEE would be two good sides to merge. It would create a better membership figure and get rid of GEE's financial problems.
Any suggestions for new/merged sides?

ANOTHER ISSUE- TRAVELLING
This isn't a truly National Competition as most of the footy is still played in Vic.
Maybe with some Vic sides merged and a couple new interstate clubs (maybe TASSIE)would make this a truly NATIONAL competition.
The interstate clubs are travelling way too much when compared to Vic teams.(Brisbane) We should try to equalise the amount of travelling time for every side and make this comp. fair.




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Essendon 2000
Who will stop them?

 

[Dan26]

Geelong will never merge. They are the second oldest club in the country (1859), and have a large supporter base. Their membership is at record levels (around 25,000)Geelong is one of Victoria's "BIG FIVE" in support. The other 4 are, of course, Essendon, Collingwood, Carlton and Richmond. They are a sucessful club and always have been. They have been a regualr finalist throughout their 100 year history. And for the region of Victoria west of Melbourne, Geelong Football Club dominates the support. This area expands right down to Colac. This is a huge market of Geelong followers

Merging won't work. Membership won't increase, as the fans won't get behind the merger. The AFL tried it twice. Once in 1989 between Fitzroy and Footscray, and then again in 1996 between Melbourne and Hawthorn. Both attempts at meging were resounding failures. I guarantee that had the Melbourne Hawks been formed in 1997, their membership would not have reached the 30,000 that Hawthorns membership soared to the next year.

The merger in 1996 between Brisbane and Fitzroy was out of necessity. It was either merge or lose Fitzroy forever.

The amount of teams in Victoria is whatever the market will hold. There is no set number. If teams continue to make a profit, they have evety right to continue.

Sure, the Victorian teams don't travel as much, but this is made up for due to the fact that they don't have a homre ground advantage.

For example, Brisbane travel 11 time a year. This appears unfair because Richmond, for example only travel 5 times. But the Tigers don't have a home ground advantage. Nor do nearly all the Victorian teams. You could even argur that Victorian sides have it tougher becasue in addition to travelling 5 times, they don't get a home ground advantage, except for the two or three times they host a non-Victorian team.

Tasmania should never come into the competition. They only have around 300,000 people. It's not a big enough market. The next AFL team MUST come from Sydney. The Western suburbs of Sydney (the Swans are based IN Sydney) have a population of over 2 million. This is the biggest untapped market for Australian Football in this country. No wonder North are keen to establish a prescense in Australias two biggest cities.

 

[eagles_rule]

Just like to pick you up on one point you made. Victoria is still the most AFL driven state in OZ? Gee, I didn't realise rugby league was big in WA or SA. Are you off your head? Footy is just as important to ppl in WA and SA than it is in Victoria. You think because it began in Victoria, it makes you special or something. Im a Victorian who moved to WA 10 years ago, and I can tell you there is no difference between the two states when it comes to loving football like a religion. Look at club memberships, you said it yourself, West Coast, Adelaide and Port dominate,and went Freo becomes successful there membership will soar. I can remember that the reason the interstate teams were included in the expanded comp was because many of the Melb clubs were near bankrupt. Im so fed up with this mentality of Victoria being being the so called centre of the football world and having the best supporters and so on.

 

[Marvin]

Just a general comment. I don't think that there are too many teams in Victoria.

BUT, I do believe that there are too many Victorian based supporters that believe it is still the VFL.

I am a bombers fan, living in QLD. I go to the Lions matches at the Gabba when I can. I keep up to date with football thru the internet.

Way too many people in Victoria use the interstate teams as an excuse. They get more money from the AFL, they get draft concessions, they get preferential treatment etc....etc...etc...

Can you lot imagine turning on the news on any given day of the week and NOT getting any AFL news at all on the sports report!!

Welcome to life in QLD folks.

You lot are comfortably living in the "home" of afl football. The membership situation is an individual club problem, not a state by state problem. Victorian clubs who treat members well, have the best membership numbers. Interstate teams memebership numbers are inconsequential to this arguement. What other teams are they going to join in their home state and how many choices each weekend do they have in relationt to which games they are going to watch??

Since the finals series last year, there has only been ONE official, AFL premiership season game up here in Brisbane. So of course, with 11 games for the year, lots of people will join to make sure they get a good seat. How many games have been played in Victoria so far this season???

 

[Slatts]

To dan

I disagree with you. Interstate sides have home ground advantages because a large percentage of those who attend are supporting the home team. Now while this effect has subsided a little, it is still an important factor. If we had less Vic teams and more support for the remaining teams, there would be a significant advantage. I definitely don't believe that interstate sides aren't disadvantaged when they travel here. Have you heard how much support they get on the Victorian fields? Very Little.

Membership figures are only one side of the survival issue. Finances are the other. As Geelong have shown us, despite having reasonable membership figures, they can have massive financial turmoil. The reason I suggested that they + WB merge is because it would provide members for the long term and gurantee their financial position as well.

Hawthorn is an excellent example of how a club has cried poor to the public and received a response. Many clubs have tried this but you know one day, a club in financial or membership jeopardy will cry poor and their pleas will fall on deaf ears.
Hawthorn's membership has almost gone down as fast as it went up.

Clubs must take affirmative action to ensure their survival or risk the fate of Fitzroy which everyone has forgotten. The clubs that move now will be strengthening their longterm position. Sure, membership may plummet in the short term but rich, skillfull sides quickly pick up members.

I agree with you about where the next side should come from as Sydney is a big market.

Clubs which travel interstate most are disadvantaged. The clubs that do this are interstate clubs. By having more interstate sides, and less Vic teams, this competition might become more than just the VFL with a few extra sides thrown in.

 

[Slatts]

To Eagles rule

When I said that Vic is the most AFL driven state in OZ, I did it on the assumption of numbers of memberships in state. You add up all the memberships in VIc and you'll get more than any other states. I don't mean this as to say that other states aren't as enthused as Vic's but because it has been around a lot, logically it means there are going to be more supporters.

I know SA and WA supporters are just about the most passionate and based on that would probably be the most AFL driven states. I am a pro national competition person who wants to see every team get a fair go.

You also mentioned that the only reason interstate sides were brought into it was because some VIC sides were nearly bankrupt. These clubs are still nearly bankrupt(Gee), More national sides would be more profitable.

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Essendon 2000
Who will stop them?

 

[Pessimistic]

The sad gaping hole in yours and the AFL's argument is that even if a club struggles in Victoria, it will struggle even more in ANY other place you care to mention - the current debacle with North in sydney is a classic example. Many Millions were spent after the swans moved to sydney.

If you want new teams, why not expand ? The draw is lopsided already so thheres no problem there.

And Lay off Hawthorn, we are strong. our current membership problem is to do with moving our main place of business 30km down the road. See how the eagles would go playing games in Bunbury or the Crows in victor harbour. Sheesh

The Interstate sides and victorian teams are stronger by being together. If there was a split as some have suggested then the Interstate teams would suffer most. Crows v eagles every year in the Grand final ?

 

[mary]

has anyone read the article in The Age on The Southport Sharks Football club. They have 53,000 members. maybe North should be talking to them.

 

[Dave]

Originally posted by Slatts:
Just having a look at membership figures for Victorian teams Vs Non-Victorian teams.
Interesting....
Apart from Essendon, Every Interstate side has more members than every Victorian side.

Hmmm

Brisbane 19,000
Freo 23,000

And

Carlton 25,000
Coll 24,000
Geelong 24,000
Hawthorn 25,000
Richmond 24,000

Looks like you've got some work to do on those figures

 

[GoEagles]

The figures below might of been correct when you saw them, but they are outdated as of May:

Brisbane 19,000
Freo 23,000

Fremantle was quoted as saying they are close to reaching 25,000 this season and at last count had 24,5000

While the GABBA now holds 30,000 + right? I seriously doubt the figure of 19,000 will be that low.

 

[Longjohn]

Originally posted by mary:
has anyone read the article in The Age on The Southport Sharks Football club. They have 53,000 members. maybe North should be talking to them.

Mary
Why doesn't Melbourne, Western Bulldogs, St Kilda, Geelong or Hawthorn (and their pets) talk to Southport.

Maaybe if Richmond went there they could play ssome finals.

 

[servo]

OK my tips.

4 Vic clubs will disappear within 15 years.

Hawthorn. North Kangaroos, St Kilda & Western Bulldogs.

Why?? I dont know, just my opinion.

 

[Groucho]

The trouble with those sort of tips is that you have to wait so long to see if you're right! So what's the point? Look at the last 15 years : 5 teams joined and only one disappeared (some even say that team still exists!). The landscape will change a bit but not much. Imagine the AFL alienating more than half a million supporters by letting their teams "disappear". Like it or not the AFL see themselves as selling a product and to kick that many customers in the backside would be the way to bankruptcy!

 

[sainter]

Spot on Groucho!

Would someone mind telling us what the advantages are of reducing the number of Victorian clubs that some of you seem to despise so much?

I can assure you that if the day that St Kilda folds ever eventuates, the day myself and thousands more supporters will be lost to the game. And this is the same for any other Victorian team if they were to fold. As if the AFL are not disenchanting so much of the public already, this would be disasterous for the competition. Contrary to popular belief, there is much more to this great sport than money.

 

[Dave]

Originally posted by GoEagles:
The figures below might of been correct when you saw them, but they are outdated as of May:

Brisbane 19,000
Freo 23,000

Fremantle was quoted as saying they are close to reaching 25,000 this season and at last count had 24,5000

May be so, but those of the Victorian clubs quoted would also be higher. The point I was making was that not EVERY non-vic clubs has a higher membership than every vic club bar Essendon.

While the GABBA now holds 30,000 + right? I seriously doubt the figure of 19,000 will be that low.

Maybe not in the future, but at the moment it is.

 

[Drakey]

Sainter

I certainly don't DESPISE any of the other clubs (except Port).

I would like to see a 12 team comp because it would lead to a fair draw with each team playing the other twice & a better standard with 88 less players going around each week.

I think all this separate conferance crap is just smoke & mirrors. If the teams don't play each other an even number of times then how can the draw be fair.

If the comp. is to be reduced to 12 teams then who drops out?

Adelaide & Perth have a strong football tradition & the 2 clubs in each city are in very strong possitions. Mind you in Melbourne the Adelaide clubs' financial strength is, I beleive, over stated, as a big chunk of their profit every year goes to prop up the SANFL. I don't know what the situation is with the Perth Clubs.

Sydney & Brisbane are neccessary for the code to grow. If it doesn't, it runs the risk of being swallowed by League, Union or Soccer, each of which can offer international representation.

This leaves Melbourne/Vic.

Who should go?

In a perfect world none. They all have proud histories, loyal supporters & destinct identities. But we don't live in a perfect world.

Collingwood, Essendon & Carlton I'm sure have the strength to stand alone. The rest I'm not so sure?

You can bet that financialy things are only going to get harder as costs will continue to rise & competition for the dollar will become even fiercer.

I believe mergers are the way to go NOW or in the near future so that they can be worked out from a possition of strength, unlike poor old Fitzroy who seemed to get sold to the highest bidder. Whether the merging clubs keep their traditions or not would be upto the the supporters & management. Honour the history. It will continue to live & we will all still have clubs to follow in the best comp. in the land.

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

Heres a suggestion

Scrap Fremantle and Port Adelaide and reduce the league to 14 teams.

Play a 26 round H&A season

Relocate either the Western Bulldogs or the Kangaroos to Western Sydney, playing 9 home games at Homebush Stadium and 2 home games at Canberra's Manuka Oval.

Melbourne to play 1 home game at a redeveloped York Park in Launceston, and POSSIBLY another home game at a redeveloped Bellrieve Oval in Hobart (Southern Tasmanians must demonstrate more support for the game before this one gets legs)

Another Melbourne Club (possibly Hawthorn or even Richmond) to form a strategic alliance with Southport in Qld and play 1 home game every year at either the Gabba or even a re-developed Carrara.

Should fix things up nicely and at the end of the day would there be many tears shed over Freo or Port ?

I don't think so ?

 

[Drakey]

BA

Scrap Port Adelaide?

That would hurt & infuriate 1000's of Port fans.

Sounds like a great idea!

 

[Drakey]

BA

Scrap Port Adelaide?

That would hurt & infuriate 1000's of Port fans.

Sounds like a great idea!

 

[Pessimistic]

Another question for all you footy rationalists out there (get out of the eighties, Man)

If Melbourne is so saturated with footy clubs, why are geelong trying to move in with more games here (colonial) ?

And If a clu has to move, name one other market in the country where it won't struggle to keep up with WCE, Adelaide as you suggest)

Sydney - Kangaroos there is a flop, 10 years of drip-feed for the swans

Gold Coast - Didn't the bears flop on the gold coast ?

Tassie - only Hawks v Tigers would draw a crowd there. Melbourne don't stand a chance

Any Takers ?

Get Real Guys, Melbourne may have 9 clubs already but it's the best bet for most of them

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

Absolutely correct Pessimistic

For a start this thread is not entirely serious I think - we all have our tongues in our cheeks a little bit here.

But anyway you are right, there really is nowhere to go for struggling Melbourne clubs at the moment.

The only viable market at the moment is in Western Sydney and as you have pointed out it will take 10 + years of financial dripfeeds to any club willing to go there. Look guys Western Sydney is Rugby League land. It might look tempting on paper (2 million people and all that) but as I have said before support for the game in this region is weak at best.

As for the other proposals -

Tasmania - not enough people, redeveloped grounds not withstanding

SE Queensland - Southport are very keen to get a toehold but after years of lobbying still nobody at the AFL wants to talk to them

Far North Queensland - footy has a strong following up there but it won't happen, again not enough people and the climate will make match scheduling difficult.

Canberra - again a footy stronghold but the best these guys can hope for is 1 or 2 fixtures a year.

So where to from here ?

Mergers just won't work (see Fitzroy-Footscray 1989 and Melbourne-Hawthorn 1996)

Re-location has been tried and has been a costly and gut-wrenching exercise (Sydney, Kangaroos)

Will clubs be just allowed to die a natural death ?

I certainly hope not, footy just isn't the same without Fitzroy and any more deaths would be unthinkable.

 

[Slatts]

Sydney is definitely the next place for an AFL club. Agreed, it is rugby controlled but it would be a long term decision. All you would need is one strong player up there(Swans-Plugger) and a little success on field(1996) and then the numbers will naturally increase-both financially and memberships wise.

Eveyone remember 1996, the swans nearly took the silverware with big plugger, and then the Sydney swans looked like one of the strongest sides. Melbourne was supposedly AFL territory, yet Mel Storm is going from strength to strength. (Amazing what a premiership can do for you!)

------------------
Essendon 2000
Who will stop them?

 

[Slatts]

Apologies to everyone who was offended by my shoddy statistics in the article. I was only going by memory on the stat's quoted in the H/sun. Hope you can forgive me.

------------------
Essendon 2000
Who will stop them?

 

[Leper]

Nearly a 7 year bump... the Big Footy equivalent to a Jimmy Jess torperdo?