Are too many players eligible for Academies ??

Feb 28, 2007
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How many of these academy kids have become out and out guns?

I remember the hype on Mills and Henney and as good as they are, don’t think they’ve become the player most expected them to be..

Have any Brisbane academy kids become stars?


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Yep, despite all the complaints about the Academies no academy player from Brisbane, Gold Coast, Sydney or GWS has ever been All Australian (as far as I know)
 

Ambrosia

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I’m a big believer of making the competition as even as possible.

- Implement a rolling fixture with every team getting equal access to prime time games.

- Grand final venue to be shared between states.

- Academies/FS to be scrapped or made significantly fairer

- Free agency to be fixed so compo picks don’t screw over the 16 other clubs not involved in the FA deal.

To me it all stems from the whole set up of the AFL being wrong. The way things are at the moment the AFL is the tail wagging the dog.

Football clubs exist to compete for premierships and grow their fan base whereas the AFL is run to make as much money as possible. Why is the AFL trying to be as profitable as possible? Are they trying to get more money for the players? I doubt it. Are they trying to use that money to increase the quality of the product for fans? Nah. The AFL is trying to be as profitable as possible so they can pay the executives more dollars.

Does anyone really think doing things like giving only the big clubs prime time matches and rigging the draw so Carlton and Richmond always play each other twice is helping the long term viability of the game?

The AFL should be run in the best interests of the clubs, the fans and the players in mind.
 
Oct 13, 2015
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I did not know that. Looking at him though he went 61 in the draft. Meaning clearly other clubs didn't rate him that highly. Had a club bid pick 25 on him there is a good chance they would have got him.

He was bid on by north with a second round pick, but there was no draft value index’s in place so you only had to match with your next available pick. As we’d already matched a second round bid on Liam Dawson with our third, Harris fell through to pick 61.

The bidding system was changed for the next year due to Heeney going to Sydney at 18.
 
May 6, 2007
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So from all the moaning the southern states have done, one has become elite?

And that kid wasn’t exactly a highly sough out player either?

If Harris Andrews is the only one then perhaps the Victorian clubs are clutching at straws a bit.

If they want equity in these, then perhaps remove the discount inside the top first two rounds or something, would make the linked clubs think twice on matching a bid.


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bear3

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just get rid of the NGA academy rort and keep tinkering with eligibility of northern academies it's only GWS border zones causing issues with the northern academies
 

Full Wingspan

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Oct 3, 2007
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I’m a big believer of making the competition as even as possible.

- Implement a rolling fixture with every team getting equal access to prime time games.

- Grand final venue to be shared between states.

- Academies/FS to be scrapped or made significantly fairer

- Free agency to be fixed so compo picks don’t screw over the 16 other clubs not involved in the FA deal.

To me it all stems from the whole set up of the AFL being wrong. The way things are at the moment the AFL is the tail wagging the dog.

Football clubs exist to compete for premierships and grow their fan base whereas the AFL is run to make as much money as possible. Why is the AFL trying to be as profitable as possible? Are they trying to get more money for the players? I doubt it. Are they trying to use that money to increase the quality of the product for fans? Nah. The AFL is trying to be as profitable as possible so they can pay the executives more dollars.

Does anyone really think doing things like giving only the big clubs prime time matches and rigging the draw so Carlton and Richmond always play each other twice is helping the long term viability of the game?

The AFL should be run in the best interests of the clubs, the fans and the players in mind.

I agree with the above, save for your point on academies.

There is an imbalance in our game due to the prominence of rival codes in the northern states. Northern clubs have access to only a fraction of the local talent available from the limited development pathways and small grassroots presence.

The northern academies have been a successful tool in furthering the interests of our game in these regions as well as addressing the ever-present "go home" factor given the associated challenges of northern clubs having lists predominantly comprised of interstate players.

It would be equitable to address this imbalance by allowing northern clubs priority access to this local talent. An approach based on equality i.e. giving all the teams the same concessions does not address the inherent problem.

As for another point, the commercial opportunities and sponsorship deals available to northern club players is also severely limited.

Having spoke to Tom Bell (a fringe player at both Carlton and Brisbane), he highlighted the challenges faced by fringe players who are unable to supplement their salary with "cashies". This was another concerning revelation and is part of the reason why I would like some form of disclosure regarding player payments.
 
May 6, 2007
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There is an imbalance in our game due to the prominence of rival codes in the northern states. Northern clubs have access to only a fraction of the local talent available from the limited development pathways and small grassroots presence.

This point probably is best replied in my next points but I don't mind the Academies, It is doing exactly what it is invented for.

The northern academies have been a successful tool in furthering the interests of our game in these regions as well as addressing the ever-present "go home" factor given the associated challenges of northern clubs having lists predominantly comprised of interstate players.

It would be equitable to address this imbalance by allowing northern clubs priority access to this local talent. An approach based on equality i.e. giving all the teams the same concessions does not address the inherent problem.
The Academies is doing exactly what it was invented for. I understand the negative press it recieves, especially from Victoria. It's funny that the other 'natural AFL states (South Aus and West Aus) don't seem to kick up a stink. What bothers me is the discount readily available on the top prospects as if it is anything similar to a 50/50 kid possibly taken in the 3rd round or later.

IMHO, the discount afforded to prospects in the first two rounds should be scrapped, the linked club would have a good enough understanding of said prospect to offset any discount they are afforded. I understand that club x has done the ground work on developing said prospect but at the point of drafting, they are obviously good enough to be drafted, the compensation said club would want is the sticking point now.

If the Vic clubs want an equal advantage, is allowing an extra Cat B rookie a possibility? It is allowing a "Next Generation Academy" rookie on the list or any of the other endless criterium to be rookied.

The kids who are good enough will be drafted. simple as that

As for another point, the commercial opportunities and sponsorship deals available to northern club players is also severely limited.

Having spoke to Tom Bell (a fringe player at both Carlton and Brisbane), he highlighted the challenges faced by fringe players who are unable to supplement their salary with "cashies". This was another concerning revelation and is part of the reason why I would like some form of disclosure regarding player payments.

This is something I have no problem with the COLA allowance being allowed for the northern clubs. Maybe not the çost of living allowance' cause that just sounds like a sham but something to help with the promotion of the game up north should be allowed.

What I do take um bridge in is the % of this allowance paid to certain individuals and completely rorting the system because of it. The idea was to share this with the whole list, instead it sounds like rookies in Sydney were on the same rookie wage as one in Melbourne despite having the ability to be earning more with the salary cap relief.

If the AFL could manage the finances for the list, that would save the credibility of the allowances, it wont as another expense for the AFL isn't what they want.


tl;dr? The allowances are a good idea in thought but the implementation is severely lacking hence the uproar amongst other clubs.
 

Full Wingspan

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Thanks for the post. Appreciate your insights.

What bothers me is the discount readily available on the top prospects as if it is anything similar to a 50/50 kid possibly taken in the 3rd round or later.

IMHO, the discount afforded to prospects in the first two rounds should be scrapped, the linked club would have a good enough understanding of said prospect to offset any discount they are afforded. I understand that club x has done the ground work on developing said prospect but at the point of drafting, they are obviously good enough to be drafted, the compensation said club would want is the sticking point now.

This 'Heeney situation' that you're alluding to has been adequately addressed by the introduction of the points system in my view. I do take your point that removing the discount for first and second rounders would not undermine the objective of allowing northern clubs to have first access to local talent, however I think the current discount seems reasonable and does not disadvantage the other clubs. It also abrogates the potential for non-genuine or strategic bids forcing a club to 'pay overs' for talent that would not have been as highly rated were it not for the efforts and resources from the academy club.

If the Vic clubs want an equal advantage, is allowing an extra Cat B rookie a possibility? It is allowing a "Next Generation Academy" rookie on the list or any of the other endless criterium to be rookied.

The kids who are good enough will be drafted. simple as that

Giving Victorian clubs a 'free kick' (from a list perspective) to draft speculative academy players (that would otherwise have been considered too risky) would be a fair tool in opening pathways for northern talent.


This is something I have no problem with the COLA allowance being allowed for the northern clubs. Maybe not the çost of living allowance' cause that just sounds like a sham but something to help with the promotion of the game up north should be allowed.

What I do take um bridge in is the % of this allowance paid to certain individuals and completely rorting the system because of it. The idea was to share this with the whole list, instead it sounds like rookies in Sydney were on the same rookie wage as one in Melbourne despite having the ability to be earning more with the salary cap relief.

My understanding of the COLA allowance is that a certain % was applied to each player, rather than an allocable war chest for discretionary use.


If the AFL could manage the finances for the list, that would save the credibility of the allowances, it wont as another expense for the AFL isn't what they want.

I would be happy for clubs to continue managing their own caps and lists. This exercise is extremely complex and has many working parts that most punters would not understand or be aware of. I am aware some clubs are looking at an analytics-based tool to assist optimising decision making in this regard, however I believe it should be rolled out across the league and monitored by the AFL.
 
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Ambrosia

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I agree with the above, save for your point on academies.

There is an imbalance in our game due to the prominence of rival codes in the northern states. Northern clubs have access to only a fraction of the local talent available from the limited development pathways and small grassroots presence.

The northern academies have been a successful tool in furthering the interests of our game in these regions as well as addressing the ever-present "go home" factor given the associated challenges of northern clubs having lists predominantly comprised of interstate players.

It would be equitable to address this imbalance by allowing northern clubs priority access to this local talent. An approach based on equality i.e. giving all the teams the same concessions does not address the inherent problem.

As for another point, the commercial opportunities and sponsorship deals available to northern club players is also severely limited.

Having spoke to Tom Bell (a fringe player at both Carlton and Brisbane), he highlighted the challenges faced by fringe players who are unable to supplement their salary with "cashies". This was another concerning revelation and is part of the reason why I would like some form of disclosure regarding player payments.

Yeah I’m not in favour of scrapping them all together I just think the current set up isn’t the right one.
 

Cadillac

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So from all the moaning the southern states have done, one has become elite?

And that kid wasn’t exactly a highly sough out player either?

If Harris Andrews is the only one then perhaps the Victorian clubs are clutching at straws a bit.

If they want equity in these, then perhaps remove the discount inside the top first two rounds or something, would make the linked clubs think twice on matching a bid.


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It shouldn’t matter though how many AA’s they’ve made. That all just comes down to how they are developed at AFL level. Fact of the matter is, they had been given access to elite talent that the other clubs didn’t have access too. I’m sure almost every club would have loved a free Mills, Heeney, Hipwood etc. using AA’s to determine if it’d right or wrong is ridiculous.
 
Feb 28, 2007
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This 'Heeney situation' that you're alluding to has been adequately addressed by the introduction of the points system in my view. I do take your point that removing the discount for first and second rounders would not undermine the objective of allowing northern clubs to have first access to local talent, however I think the current discount seems reasonable and does not disadvantage the other clubs. It also abrogates the potential for non-genuine or strategic bids forcing a club to 'pay overs' for talent that would not have been as highly rated were it not for the efforts and resources from the academy club.

Also is a discount really a discount if no one pays the full price? It is like a jewelry store that is offering 50% off. Sure it says the jewelry is 50% off but I am betting no one in history has paid the full price for it, which in reality makes the 50% off offer the correct price.
 
Sep 11, 2008
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With Stack, Taylor etc etc. How can we get enough personal development around indigenous players who need it, with preventing the club's from just drafting the players who don't need help.

Hopefully the afl does a better job.
 

Yojimbo

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With Stack, Taylor etc etc. How can we get enough personal development around indigenous players who need it, with preventing the club's from just drafting the players who don't need help.

Hopefully the afl does a better job.
You could argue there is an inherit risk with every player taken in the draft, academies may offset that risk marginally by letting
the development officers monitor the players adaptation to a semi-professional environment. The issue you raise however is an
incredibly complex and difficult one when does a player stop being a footballer and become responsible for his actions away from
football. Everyone comes to a fork in the road at one point in their life, the direction you choose to take is ultimately up to you,
yes you can get help and receive guidance and support, but in the end you choose you decide.
 
Sep 11, 2008
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You could argue there is an inherit risk with every player taken in the draft, academies may offset that risk marginally by letting
the development officers monitor the players adaptation to a semi-professional environment. The issue you raise however is an
incredibly complex and difficult one when does a player stop being a footballer and become responsible for his actions away from
football. Everyone comes to a fork in the road at one point in their life, the direction you choose to take is ultimately up to you,
yes you can get help and receive guidance and support, but in the end you choose you decide.
Agree it is a complex issue.

I would think the earlier you supported them, the better return you would get.

Also, some players are not ready at 18 to be drafted.
 

Wargreymon90

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I would make academy void for top 10 picks. Ie no club is able to match. Once outside that, it goes back to normal.

i would also extend this to priority picks and father son. The latter will never happen though
 

Yojimbo

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Agree it is a complex issue.

I would think the earlier you supported them, the better return you would get.

Also, some players are not ready at 18 to be drafted.
The West Coast model seems to be successful, they target it seems a point in their lives when they are more mature and settled,
but as a former NT Thunder fan i have marveled at the beauty and instinctive brilliance on display, only to see it consistently
crushed by system and structure. There was something symbolic in the dream time match this year, i was emotional yet i cannot
explain why. Anyway this is a bit off topic, but such a worthy conversation.
 

TheKITC

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Well this has turned into the usual and predictable s**t fight...

In reality, any "access" to players is going exploited by clubs, because why wouldn't you? Northern Academies and NGAs will always be used to gain access to the kids who would've played the game and been drafted regardless. You can argue until you are blue in the face either way, but these set ups are yielding results for clubs that are not 'true' to the reason they were introduced. Of course a club is going to invest resources in a Isaac Quaynor or Nick Blakey. These academies weren't meant for them, but here we are...

Given these academies will likely stay, I also think the points system is not appropriate and the discounts need to be addressed. A host of picks in the 30s and 40s doesn't and should not equal a top end pick when matching. It is open to rorting and isn't like for like in value. Of course a team that finished in the finals is going to give up these picks for a shot at a Callum Mills, JUH or Eric Hipwood. I would suggest that a club must use a pick in the round the player is bid on, or something to that effect. If you don't have one? Well, that's the market price and the bidder is succesful. Perhaps a 5 minute timer could be had to allow teams to trade into that round, which would have the clubs set the market value for pick swaps.

I also think a FS scale should be implemented. If a father played 300+ games the discount should be say the current level and scaled back for someone who scraped in for 100 and is widely unknown. If you are going to have this rule, which is great for the nostalgia and traditionalists, it should be a little bit more equitable given it is a random advantage for some clubs IMO.
 
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NoobPie

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It shouldn’t matter though how many AA’s they’ve made. That all just comes down to how they are developed at AFL level. Fact of the matter is, they had been given access to elite talent that the other clubs didn’t have access too. I’m sure almost every club would have loved a free Mills, Heeney, Hipwood etc. using AA’s to determine if it’d right or wrong is ridiculous.

I'm sure the swans and Brisbane would have loved a free mills , Heeney and Hipwood as well!

You don't appear to understand how it works
 
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