Are too many players eligible for Academies ??

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At least you've seen the sense to drop your ridiculous previous argument. I'm referring to using academies to pick up players like Mills, who came from AFL footballing families

Mills played Auskick from age 4-7, and then dropped it to play Rugby Union (which isn't a surprise as he's a North Shore kid). Only picked it back up again as a 13 year old.

Anyway, give any club with over 50% of their list from out of state salary cap concessions and then you can get rid of the academies.
 

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Mills played Auskick from age 4-7, and then dropped it to play Rugby Union (which isn't a surprise as he's a North Shore kid). Only picked it back up again as a 13 year old.

Anyway, give any club with over 50% of their list from out of state salary cap concessions and then you can get rid of the academies.

You already had that as well.....
 
Sep 11, 2008
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You double counted Campbell, i assume you meant Western?

Gulden and Western won't be bid that early. Caleb Daniel is 4cm shorter, was arguably the most skilled player in his draft year, yet he slid to the 40s. Undersized midfielders rarely get taken early, especially when they're that small.

Edwards is very unlikely to be taken that early. Mead and Maginness were probably higher rated in their draft year than Edwards is now, and they both went mid 20s.

Walker and Jones are only possible top 20. Could very well drop past that point. Again, Mead and Maginness were both considered potential top 20 picks.

This year is not unlike the last few years
I did not really count, just had a quick look at notice the number of academy players is increasing year after year.

:)
 

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Mister Snrub

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I did not really count, just had a quick look at notice the number of academy players is increasing year after year.

:)
Is it though? I just gave examples from 2018 and 2019 that disproves that. Academies are a problem in their current state, but this year is no different to previous years, other than the amount of attention the media is giving it
 
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No surprise supporters of Vic clubs with entrenched advantages want academies scrapped...

There is an argument that the AFL should be running the Northern Academies (instead of the clubs), however the issue with this is that they tried to beforehand and just did not resource it adequately and thus had bad results in player identification, training, etc.

They handed it over to the clubs, who obviously had strong motivation to get it right, so sought sponsor partners etc and resourced their academies correctly and they have since done a pretty good job.

So sure if the AFL are going to run Northern Academies / Northern development, let them run it, but they have to run it well, because their previous efforts were half hearted at best, and they have been much better since the clubs took over.
 
Fremantle put a lot of work into sending staff, former players up to very remote regions of WA to run footy days which are mostly for the children to have a great day and have them potentially dreaming of a footy future in their lives, instill some positive messages etc.

It's valuable enough without any potential benefit for Fremantle and they know it, they offered to give up the priority access to all of their academy before pick #40 to allow greater interaction for the indigenous talent in the metro area after the local elders asked that the metro young people be afforded the same pathway as the regional indigenous young people had via the NGA rules.
 
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I agree academies are becoming a problem, but who are these 10?

Close to locks for top 20:
  • Ugle-Hagan (Bulldogs)
  • Campbell (Sydney)
  • McInness (Pies)
  • Alex Davies is going to be taken by GC outside of the draft, but realistically is a chance for top 10 if he wasn't prelisted.
Possible picks:
  • Walker (Fremantle)
  • Jones (Port)

Guys like Gulden (Sydney) and Western (Fremantle) are highly rated, but are only 172cm playing as midfielders. These types tend to slide, so I highly doubt they're bid on until the 30s. Who else is there, unless I'm missing someone? There's some Adelaide and Essendon kids that look alright, but nothing in the mix for top 20.

The idea that this year's draft is highly compromised has been exaggerated.

In 2019, we saw Henry (9), Green (10), Mead (25), Maginness (29), Coleman (37), Cumberland (43, not matched) and Martyn (44, not matched) all taken in the first 2 rounds.

In 2018, we saw Thomas (8), Blakey (10), Quaynor (13), West (26), Kelly (29), Briggs (34), Cameron (39) and McFadyen (42) all taken in the first 2 rounds.

Remind me how 2020 is any worse than the last 2 years? And JUH being in the frame for Pick 1 is hardly unprecedented, given that Heeney, Hawkins and Walker (just to name a few) have all been in similar situations before, just in even more unbalanced systems

Is it though? I just gave examples from 2018 and 2019 that disproves that. Academies are a problem in their current state, but this year is no different to previous years, other than the amount of attention the media is giving it

I think clubs getting a top 5 when they are not in the bottom 5 clubs in the comp is an issue. The other issue is the bottom 5 clubs are not getting first choice at the first 5 players.

The points system is off by roughly 30% for top 5 picks.

Any thing that compromises the draft, and strongly advantages clubs with better zones is bad for football.

Don't get me started on how uneven the zones.

I think all players in the first 20 picks should be eligible to all, and only after pick 20 should players be able to be picked up through the associated academy.


FYI - I believe they have been an issue for 3 or 4 years, not just this year.
 
No surprise supporters of Vic clubs with entrenched advantages want academies scrapped...

There is an argument that the AFL should be running the Northern Academies (instead of the clubs), however the issue with this is that they tried to beforehand and just did not resource it adequately and thus had bad results in player identification, training, etc.

They handed it over to the clubs, who obviously had strong motivation to get it right, so sought sponsor partners etc and resourced their academies correctly and they have since done a pretty good job.

So sure if the AFL are going to run Northern Academies / Northern development, let them run it, but they have to run it well, because their previous efforts were half hearted at best, and they have been much better since the clubs took over.

I get why some see F/S as some entrenched unfairness, Freo and Port should definitely have been given f/s access to past club greats, Brisbane to Fitzroy, Swans to South Melbourne, all the other clubs have no past to call on. its a uniquely Aus rules thing and most certainly I think a legacy that ties families and clubs together like no other sport in the world, but yes, get rid of discounts, the access is enough of its self.

as of the Syd/ Northern Academies, the draw that is an AFL club running the show is far better than the AFL running it, but that's where it should stop, Let the clubs bill the AFL, Its a system that's unfair in not only access but also financial, Sydney and GWS proudly tell us that sponsors pay for the programs. How do some of the smaller clubs compete, not only with the interstate academies but with the bigger Melb clubs. The go-home factor is still there and the interstate clubs have the same chance when it comes to drawing interstate players out of Vic than Vice versa, maybe more so if they went through the Academy.

The NGA is nothing more than a zone system reintroduction, the same system that attributed to the death of the VFL.

the Draft was introduced to even the competition and ever since the balance has been skewed by mostly the same clubs to reintroduce an imbalance to the system, and then we have these ambassadorial payments..... and imbalances to help the start-up teams, despite a few other clubs not playing in finals for extended periods also in part due to the same very clubs
 
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What's this talk of a national U/18s comp? The NAB league is practically that, minus SA and WA.

Mills played Auskick from age 4-7, and then dropped it to play Rugby Union (which isn't a surprise as he's a North Shore kid). Only picked it back up again as a 13 year old.

Anyway, give any club with over 50% of their list from out of state salary cap concessions and then you can get rid of the academies.

So, Adelaide 2017 then?
 
Take away the onus on the quality/size of the talent pool available by making the limiting factor how many the club can take.


e.g.
Over a 5 year period, every club gets 1 1st round, 1 2nd round, 1 3rd round, 1 4th round and 1 5th round 'special' pick, with no discount applied. (they may also take any number of eligible players who lasted until the 6th round or later).

These special picks can apply to academy or FS picks (really, any pick that is outside the usual draft rules) and can be traded.

The first pick used to utilise these special picks must be within 1 round (18 selections) of the pick they were bid at. (live trading may be used to acquire such a pick).


Compensation for Free Agency is adjusted to instead provide additional picks and/or discounts under this system.

If a club is deemed to be unduly suffering from (or benefiting from) the 'go home factor', the AFL could grant a few extra picks under this system to such a club as additional compensation when players leave. (probably only applies to Northern clubs....I'd rather this wasn't in place, because I'd prefer to remove 'discretionary adjustments', but reality is that the AFL is going to look after them, and this allowed them a means to do so in a transparent and controlled manner).
 
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In cases like those, I'm happy for academies to exist, but clubs should not be given rights to the players. An AFL-run academy to convince the likes of Keath, JUH, Heeney, etc. to play the game is a good thing, but tying them to clubs to unfair. We are lucky we get JUH, but I'm not going to pretend that it is in any way a fair system
I can understand why they have the northern academies. I fundamentally disagree with them but I get the argument.

The NGAs are an absolute joke. The only reason they were brought in was because some of the other clubs complained about the northern academies (as they were right to do) and instead of removing one inequity the AFL exacerbated the problem. Now you have a situation where my kids who are 3rd generation Aussie on my side and have been around footy since they were born would qualify for the NGAs because my wife was born overseas and came here as a teenager. It's utterly crazy and unnecessary. It's a return to the bad old days of the zones which helped created/exacerbate massive inequities in the competition. The draft is one of the key pillars of equalisation and should be left unadulterated (and that goes for father/sons as well which are an anachronism in the modern game).
 

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Pykie

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No surprise supporters of Vic clubs with entrenched advantages want academies scrapped...

There is an argument that the AFL should be running the Northern Academies (instead of the clubs), however the issue with this is that they tried to beforehand and just did not resource it adequately and thus had bad results in player identification, training, etc.

They handed it over to the clubs, who obviously had strong motivation to get it right, so sought sponsor partners etc and resourced their academies correctly and they have since done a pretty good job.

So sure if the AFL are going to run Northern Academies / Northern development, let them run it, but they have to run it well, because their previous efforts were half hearted at best, and they have been much better since the clubs took over.

No surprise Northern clubs with entrenched advantages don't want them scrapped.

It should be up to NSW AFL to run them, like AFL VIC runs the Nab League.

Awesome of the Swans to pluck Braeden Campbell from the wilderness like they have.....

I mean he only played all his junior football at the same club that produced Lenny Hayes, Mark McVeigh, Jarred, McVeigh, Kieran Jack and Branden Jack.

Pennant Hills has a better history of producing AFL players in the last 25 years than most Melbourne metro junior clubs.


Oh, god, but how would these kids ever manage to develop their skills and go to the next level without the sporadic training sessions the Swans put on, almost 50 minutes through Sydney Metro traffic from his junior football club? The junior clubs in Sydney and QLD don't exist if you listened to most on here.

These kids years culminate in a bastardisation of the Div 2 carnival, where kids have no other option BUT to play for these academies now. Or else they can't be sellected for the Allies. That sort of ultimatum in the best interests of grass roots football?

There is no NSW or QLD representative side anymore, you HAVE to join an acedemy to be picked for the Allies.

You can play for any football side in Victoria, WA, SA and get picked for the state representative side in those states. You have to play for Sydney's or GWS' academy to be elligible for selection for the Allies from metro Sydney. No vested interests there, the Swans just doing their upmost for the grass roots of AFL in NSW........
 
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Yojimbo

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I'm not a big fan of academies being tied to the draft and specific club drafting advantages. The AFL should still invest in the youth development, but then the draft system should then just play out as normal.
Maribor Chol: Brisbane Academy
Noah Cumberland: Brisbane Academy
Will Martyn: Brisbane Academy
Ryan Garthwaite: GWS Academy
Bigoa Nyoun: St Kilda NGA
Derek Eggmolesse-Smith: Richmond NGA

Your club appears to be a massive fan of academies, except your own of course.
 

Mister Snrub

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I can understand why they have the northern academies. I fundamentally disagree with them but I get the argument.

The NGAs are an absolute joke. The only reason they were brought in was because some of the other clubs complained about the northern academies (as they were right to do) and instead of removing one inequity the AFL exacerbated the problem. Now you have a situation where my kids who are 3rd generation Aussie on my side and have been around footy since they were born would qualify for the NGAs because my wife was born overseas and came here as a teenager. It's utterly crazy and unnecessary. It's a return to the bad old days of the zones which helped created/exacerbate massive inequities in the competition. The draft is one of the key pillars of equalisation and should be left unadulterated (and that goes for father/sons as well which are an anachronism in the modern game).
It's brilliant that guys like Buku Khamis are given opportunity through the NGA, given he grew up in South Sudan, wasn't introduced to footy until he was a teenager, and is the genuine target of programs like these. Then you have guys like James Borlase, whose dad won 4 flags in the SANFL, qualifying for NGA because he was born when his parents travelled to Egypt for work. Or Nick Blakey, whose dad is 12th on the all time games list. These are not the types of kids who should be included in an NGA, as they would have been introduced to the sport at a very young age.

Agree on father sons too. Dogs have benefited arguably more than any other (except maybe the Cats), but I can definitely see how ridiculous the system is. At the very least, if you want to give exclusive rights to a player, it should come at a 20% premium, not a 20% discount. Make the clubs pay handsomely if they really want the kids.
 

Mister Snrub

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No surprise supporters of Vic clubs with entrenched advantages want academies scrapped...

There is an argument that the AFL should be running the Northern Academies (instead of the clubs), however the issue with this is that they tried to beforehand and just did not resource it adequately and thus had bad results in player identification, training, etc.

They handed it over to the clubs, who obviously had strong motivation to get it right, so sought sponsor partners etc and resourced their academies correctly and they have since done a pretty good job.

So sure if the AFL are going to run Northern Academies / Northern development, let them run it, but they have to run it well, because their previous efforts were half hearted at best, and they have been much better since the clubs took over.
Mate the Dogs have Libba, Wallis, Hunter, Cordy, West and soon JUH thanks to ridiculous draft concessions, and still I am firmly against it.

If we want to fix the system, reverse the 20% discount so it's charged as a premium instead. This means clubs can still have their exclusive rights to players, but if another club wants them then you have to pay up. Ridiculous that the likes of Blakey, Mills, Henry, Green, JUH, etc. can be bid on within the top 10 picks but no other club gets them.
 
Feb 21, 2006
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No, what?

Changing the subject to the GF and 3rd party deals (Of all things considering the paper bag that is the "AFL multicultural ambassador" is essentially a 3rd party payment to keep big names in emerging markets)?

Answer the question, why does the NSW talent pool have to be as good as Victoria to eradicate the Northern Acadamies?

Why? It makes no difference to the quality of players available to any Northern side. It just strips you of a major inequality in the draft system, just like the NGA's should be removed.

There's already speculation the NGA's will be removed next year.

I mean, Gold Coast was handed the entire Darwin catchment last year under even easier terms than those of the Northern Acadamies.

No bids, no picks required. Just list them on a peice of paper and circumvent the whole draft. There's two top 20 prospects out of Darwin this year.

Seriously, the system is a complete joke. I don't think you actually comprehend how long some supporters have been waiting for some club success, particularly Melbourne and St Kilda fans.

It's an absolute disgrace how the AFL is "engineering" success via these catchment areas. Over half of Australia's population is currently zoned with complete priority access to 4 football clubs.

We can't have northern clubs languishing at the bottom of the ladder! Sydney have been perennial finalists for 25 years, won two premierships from 5 grand finals and now the violins are coming out about what support they might need ON TOP of the priority academy picks they've had in recent years (Heeney, Mills and Blakey). It's a joke and compromises the integrity of the entire competition.
 

Pykie

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It's brilliant that guys like Buku Khamis are given opportunity through the NGA, given he grew up in South Sudan, wasn't introduced to footy until he was a teenager, and is the genuine target of programs like these. Then you have guys like James Borlase, whose dad won 4 flags in the SANFL, qualifying for NGA because he was born when his parents travelled to Egypt for work. Or Nick Blakey, whose dad is 12th on the all time games list. These are not the types of kids who should be included in an NGA, as they would have been introduced to the sport at a very young age.

Agree on father sons too. Dogs have benefited arguably more than any other (except maybe the Cats), but I can definitely see how ridiculous the system is. At the very least, if you want to give exclusive rights to a player, it should come at a 20% premium, not a 20% discount. Make the clubs pay handsomely if they really want the kids.

Blakey, wasn't NGA.

He was just a teenage male living in metro Sydney.

That's the difference with the size of their catchment area.

There's 23,000 people that identify as indigenous in all of Tasmania. Of that, 4% are males in their teenage years.

There's a pool of 900 people, in our NGA that even qualify in all of Tasmania, before factoring in if they are even good enough or even play football. Someone like Tarryn Thomas was a statistical miracle.

There's 264,000 male teenagers in Metro Sydney that fall in their catchment criteria.

Only a talent pool 293 x greater than our NGA zone.
 
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Mister Snrub

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Blakey, wasn't NGA.

He was just a teenage male living in metro Sydney.

That's the difference with the size of their catchment area.
You're right, regular academy member. While simultaneously a father/son option for North. Should never have been eligible for academy in the first place.

I have no problem with Brisbane's NGA honestly - they usually end up with kids in the 2nd/3rd round, not among the best of the best like Blakey, Mills, Heeney, Green, Perryman, Hopper, etc.
 

Pykie

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There's 17,000 teenage males in Tasmania. They had 2,550 Aus Kick kids in 2017.

There was 254,000 registered junior footballers in NSW in 2017.

There was only 461,000 in Victoria and 330,000 in WA.

There were more registered participants in NSW than in SA.

There's only a difference in 40% between VIC and NSW.
 
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Luv_our_club

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If you look at the last 20 plus years, the AFL have always had levers in place to assist the northern (non-traditional) clubs. Normally it was extra salary cap. But the academies are the most unfair advantage imo.

It takes 22 games to stake a claim in the draft - sometimes it means losing 15 games. It is so unfair to unseat a club from their pick.


F/S is a problem... we all want it we all love it... but it rarely leads to gross injustice like academies.
 
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Maribor Chol: Brisbane Academy
Noah Cumberland: Brisbane Academy
Will Martyn: Brisbane Academy
Ryan Garthwaite: GWS Academy
Bigoa Nyoun: St Kilda NGA
Derek Eggmolesse-Smith: Richmond NGA

Your club appears to be a massive fan of academies, except your own of course.
What's your point? I'm not a fan of the academies being tied to clubs, the Tigers bid on those players and they weren't matched.

I'm not against the AFL promoting and funding youth academies and development, with clubs doing their bit to support if needed, but I don't feel they should be tied to the draft then with academy draft rules.
 

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You're right, regular academy member. While simultaneously a father/son option for North. Should never have been eligible for academy in the first place.

I have no problem with Brisbane's NGA honestly - they usually end up with kids in the 2nd/3rd round, not among the best of the best like Blakey, Mills, Heeney, Green, Perryman, Hopper, etc.

The problem with the current system is, Sydney supporters will argue they developed him in their academy, coaching etc.

But the reality of the situation is he has absolutely no other choice of any other pathway than the Swans academy with the abolition of the NSW/ACT Rams.

If he doesn't join an academy, he can't play for an academy in the Div 2 carnival.

If he doesn't play in the Div 2 carnival, he's not eligible for the Allies in the National Championships.


Take one look at the VFL as an example of how it should work. Clubs pour millions in staff, resources, coaches, physio's to run their VFL sides and support their alignments. Yet if they develop VFL listed players with their own resources, they have absolutely no priority access to any of these players (as it should be), they are open to the rest of the competition, despite that investment. Yet the Northern clubs would argue if there's no incentive then it 'wouldn't be done right'.

If the national eastern reserves league gets up, there's an opportunity for a colts division, with Nab League teams aligned with AFL or VFL clubs and the academies falling under each AFL side in Sydney and QLD.

If that eventuates, it should spell the end of these Northern academies. Or else do the Oakleigh Chargers then fall as a Collingwood Academy?
 
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Yojimbo

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What's your point? I'm not a fan of the academies being tied to clubs, the Tigers bid on those players and they weren't matched.

I'm not against the AFL promoting and funding youth academies and development, with clubs doing their bit to support if needed, but I don't feel they should be tied to the draft then with academy draft rules.
I guess i find it odd that a club ends up with three players on their list who were tied to other clubs in the one year, no odd is too
soft that is downright bizarre. The Brisbane Academy has provided Male and Female players to Brisbane and multiple other clubs
most of whom may never of even looked at football as a sporting option, good on them as Melbourne clubs have too traditional
a pull on young talent the numbers are staggering.
 

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