Are we a development team?

[Brad Goodman]

If we'd done better with our recruiting recycled players it would have been a different story. Have a look at Hawthorn's imports over the last five years compared to ours, the gulf in class is significant.

As it stands our chances of another flag with Pendlebury and Cloke being the driving force are essentially gone, so in a way I think playing all the youth is an admission of failure in terms of list management over the last few seasons.

 

[Snag Breac]

We may be developing, but are we progressing at a rate that will make us contenders anytime soon?

We've been unlucky with injuries and recruiting at a time when we've been judging our new coach. But Bucks isn't 'new' in the position any more, and teams that were once way behind us are coming on well.

How much of our current form is due to factors we can't control, and how much is due to failure on the part of our coaching team? Who knows?

And what's our role as supporters? To articulate our concerns - which adds to the negativity surrounding the team - or to stand by the club and barrack even hard in these rough times? Can we strike a balance between the two?

 

[Markfs]

Yeah but we'll probably have to give that to GWS also

GWS has posted an article on their site saying that they wont be drafting anyone after pick 20 in the next 5 drafts....

 

[MISFITS]

If we'd done better with our recruiting recycled players it would have been a different story. Have a look at Hawthorn's imports over the last five years compared to ours, the gulf in class is significant.

As it stands our chances of another flag with Pendlebury and Cloke being the driving force are essentially gone, so in a way I think playing all the youth is an admission of failure in terms of list management over the last few seasons.

Geoff Walsh is doing a class act over at North Melbourne with his list management.
Could we woe him back to the post that he served so well?
Oh yeah...he fell out with Garry Pert....not in the boys club!
Dammit

 

[NT.Thunder]

GWS has posted an article on their site saying that they wont be drafting anyone after pick 20 in the next 5 drafts....

Oh you gotta love that - good times to be a GWS supporter as long as you're not living in Western Sydney - then it'd still be shite!

 

[THATSGOLD]

We've been called a "young" team without fail every single year since 2009

Youngest team ever to win a flag. We were
a development team then....

 

[jackcass]

So Buck's Fixing the List ended up Stuffed the List Right Up?

And what would you have done differently Dave. Rebuild started after the 2010 GF with so many senior players finishing up. Massive churn of the list ever since trying to find the pieces of the puzzle needed. Would you have retained some of those players who opted to retire or had reach their use-by date and if so how/why?

Would you not have traded in certain players, which ones and why?

Would you have not gone as hard in the draft or selected different players?

Would you have prevented all the season ending or extended injuries to Brown, Scharenberg, Reid, Freeman, Didak, Ball, Toovey, Ramsay, Beams, Keeffe et al. How?

You get the opportunity to review all those types of decisions now with the full benefit of hindsight but would be an interesting exercise to go back and see what you were thinking during each of those trade/draft periods.

 

[jackcass]

If what you're saying is true, then what on earth have we been doing for the last three years and why was much of the supporter base and the club itself during the pre-season pumping us up as being serious finals contenders?

I just have a feeling of revisionism here because things are not going to plan the way many had envisaged. A team in rebuild would be just worried about the development of a young team and any win (especially against good opposition) is one to cherish and lap up rather than speaking of finals and winning flags in 2017/2018.

If we need to continue rebuilding, then our current rebuild will be considered a failure sadly.

I think over that period the club would have expected some of the top end picks like Scharenberg, Broomhead, Kennedy and Freeman to have racked up something approaching 50 games and as such start making meaningful contributions to the side. Scharenberg in particular because he brings on-field leadership which we severely lack. We've all seen how that has panned out but it is not something that you'd factor in when making projections.

I don't think our position is as perilous as some suggest. I think we've got a very talented bunch of developing kids. Sadly, our senior core hasn't held up. We keep losing blokes like Ball, Johnson, Krakouer, Didak and Maxwell because their bodies are no longer up to it while we've been able to retain role players like Blair and Goldsack. It's skewed the wrong way, these are the players who should be getting forced out of the senior team by more talented kids. Teams like Hawthorn have enjoyed great success in retaining their top end senior players like Mitchell, Hodge and Lewis, and they remain vital cogs in their team.

Stability is the thing we need now more than anything.

 

[jackcass]

Harsh calling Broomhead a Fail and Schranberg and Freeman where Injuries. Kennedy was the only true Fail

Even Kennedy was derailed by injury.

 

[Dynamics]

If we'd done better with our recruiting recycled players it would have been a different story. Have a look at Hawthorn's imports over the last five years compared to ours, the gulf in class is significant.

As it stands our chances of another flag with Pendlebury and Cloke being the driving force are essentially gone, so in a way I think playing all the youth is an admission of failure in terms of list management over the last few seasons.

Yep. We've picked up some good players (and paid through the nose for some of them) but we've brought in far too many donkeys.

Off the top of my head, Russell, Lynch, White, Armstrong, Karnezis, Golds.

I also want Levi Greenwood to do well and I like him, plus injuries haven't been any help to him at all, but I'd like more of a return on that salary cap investment.

Go back and have a listen to what Hine said about some of these guys and match it up against what we got out of them. Either Dekka is making some really bad calls or we are really failing to get the most out of them. Or, even better, it's a bit of both.

*Consider all of my posts of this nature to contain the caveat "I really hope they prove me wrong".

 

[jackcass]

We are in this position because we don't have a single player on the list who has developed into an A grader since 2012.

Bit of license taken here.

Ignores the fact that we've traded out of the high end draft picks in 2009 or used them on an aging worrier (Jolly & Ball) and our 1st legitimate pick was Sinclair at 62.

Ignores the fact we traded out our first pick in a compromised draft in 2010 for Krakouer & Cegler and a 2nd round pick for Tarrant leaving our 1st legitimate pick as Fasolo at pick 45.

Ignores the fact we traded away our high picks in a compromised draft in 2011 to secure Elliott, Clarke and Yagmoor, our 1st legitimate pick being Paine at 50.

Not sure where you're expecting these A grade players to come from if you trade out of high picks in what were extremely compromised drafts for essentially older senior players and Elliott. Yagmoor didn't work out but he only cost us a pick downgrade by 3 positions. Cegler turned out to be a tool and was let go when we already had a plethora of alternate ruckmen on the list.

If Elliott hadn't been injured since mid 2015 he may well have emerged as the A grader you crave.

 

[jackcass]

And I'm surprised that MM escapes any consideration in these types of discussions. If you look at the teams that have had sustained success since 2010 the core of their lists was built prior to 2010. Ours has been built post 2010, we turned over more than 30 players in 2010-12.

 

[CFC2010]

Geoff Walsh is doing a class act over at North Melbourne with his list management.
Could we woe him back to the post that he served so well?
Oh yeah...he fell out with Gary Pert....not in the boys club!
Dammit

Very underrated post!

 

[steelebottom22]

people have a bagged out buckleys coaching but he made average lists of 2014 2015 very competetive . this year i think our list is stronger maybe still not finals worthy 9-12 team in my eyes. one thing that has worried me this year is our defensive structure/zone which i think buckley will be able to rectify over the course of the season to get us primed for a top 4 finish in 2017, one positive i have seen from our 1st 6 rounds is our attack we have been scoring (when it gets down there) as opposed to 2014 2015

 

[Countrypie]

We are not s development team, we are a team cruelled by injury to key players.
Swan, Varcoe, Elliott, Williams, Adams are all automatic picks. Put them back in the side and we look competitive.
The defence and zone structures leak because the players getting a game aren't experienced enough to cover it. 7-8 players under 25 games experience is too many to carry when structuring up defensively.
Having coached a team to play zone defence (hockey) I can tell you that one player who isn't switched on makes them all look silly.
The depth of experience is spread too thin. When we get some of those experienced players back you'll see the structures tighten up. We're only 1-2 players away from being substantially better than we are.

 

[loki04]

Youngest team ever to win a flag. We were
a development team then....

We had Maxwell, Jolly, Ball, L.Brown, L.Davis, A.Didak all nearing the end or retired.

We had a broken Dale Thomas physically and mentally.
We had Wellers wanting out for family reasons.
We had I can't mark a footy Dawesy spit it due to old man Lynchs recruitment.
we had beams want out for coin and be near family.

We have had some poor drafts and poor injury record so have not replaced the outs as well as hoped.

Now to top it off we caught out the comp with a game plan and won a flag off it, much like Hawks did in 08. By the end of 2011 two teams had worked it out, a young Hawks and the then Geelong team.

By the following year Hawks had perfected the game plan that saw them to go on and win 3 straight WHICH is a direct counter to the fwd press.

 

[Gone Critical]

Harsh calling Broomhead a Fail and Schranberg and Freeman where Injuries. Kennedy was the only true Fail

Yet so far is the best of the 4 and I think its a good chance to stay that way

 

[jmac70]

Bit of license taken here.

Ignores the fact that we've traded out of the high end draft picks in 2009 or used them on an aging worrier (Jolly & Ball) and our 1st legitimate pick was Sinclair at 62.

Ignores the fact we traded out our first pick in a compromised draft in 2010 for Krakouer & Cegler and a 2nd round pick for Tarrant leaving our 1st legitimate pick as Fasolo at pick 45.

Ignores the fact we traded away our high picks in a compromised draft in 2011 to secure Elliott, Clarke and Yagmoor, our 1st legitimate pick being Paine at 50.

Not sure where you're expecting these A grade players to come from if you trade out of high picks in what were extremely compromised drafts for essentially older senior players and Elliott. Yagmoor didn't work out but he only cost us a pick downgrade by 3 positions. Cegler turned out to be a tool and was let go when we already had a plethora of alternate ruckmen on the list.

If Elliott hadn't been injured since mid 2015 he may well have emerged as the A grader you crave.

Buckley said yesterday that our profile is such that we choose to pick younger players such as Crocker, over experienced players such as Cloke. I read this as a pretty firm indication that we are still in rebuild mode. Do you think our recruitment and list development has been successful?

 

[mattys123]

We have the fifth youngest list, that's developmental, no matter what anyone says.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...gn_code=nocode&promote_channel=social_twitter

Note we have a lot of players in the 28-30 range too, so we still have some developing to go to replace those before our next flag tilt.

 

[TradeDraft]

It's the result of poor development, an atrocious sports science department and a dash of poor coaching. Give the kids we've brought in since 2012 a good coaching structure, with strong development and keep them fit then we'll see improvement. The talent is definitely there the football department just aren't capable of getting the best out of it ala the Dogs in 2014.

Agree - We are Still Developing Players because the Development since Bucks has been Head Coach has been Shithouse at best

 

[TradeDraft]

I don't think our players are getting the proper direction at the moment.

that is another Reason and shows how Crap our Footy Department is at the Moment

 

[TradeDraft]

We have the fifth youngest list, that's developmental, no matter what anyone says.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...gn_code=nocode&promote_channel=social_twitter

Note we have a lot of players in the 28-30 range too, so we still have some developing to go to replace those before our next flag tilt.

Then why has the Club Lied to us about where we are as a List and Club?

 

[jmac70]

We have the fifth youngest list, that's developmental, no matter what anyone says.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...gn_code=nocode&promote_channel=social_twitter

Note we have a lot of players in the 28-30 range too, so we still have some developing to go to replace those before our next flag tilt.

So we are three years into an eight year rebuild. Not sure I will live long enough to see our next flag tilt.

 

[jmac70]

Then why has the Club Lied to us about where we are as a List and Club?

To save their skin.

 

[PicaBoo]

Buckley said yesterday that our profile is such that we choose to pick younger players such as Crocker, over experienced players such as Cloke. I read this as a pretty firm indication that we are still in rebuild mode. Do you think our recruitment and list development has been successful?

Why should experienced players be picked if they are hopelessly out of form.
When is the last time Cloke was like a genuine experienced fwd that posed a threat? You are allowed to go back to last season for that answer.
If our seniors are dropping off, we might as well play the rookies.
Having said that , I truly hope we get that underperforming age group of Brown, Caff, Sack and Cloke back pushing for selection. Otherwise we are indees a development side with that top layer missing.
My concern is the very skewed team balance in both senior and VFL atm: Senior team too inexperienced and a VFL team with seniors teaching the 2nd echelon of rookies that aren't ready until the next season .
How far we are of being a contender I wouldn't know. With injuries and form loss, we are currently playing with a B grade side that isn't up to it.