Are We a Finals Side?

[Bee]

Your lot has been on the bottom for the last 10 years.
.

No we haven't!

 

[Miss_Hawk_Fan]

I really have no idea what non-Carlton supporters like yourself

I also note you haven't been bird enough to rise to the challenege and meet HAWKS 08 over at Bay 13 here:

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=405146&page=5

So what are you banned from bay 13 (is your crap too much for them aswell) or just full of stuffing and too afarid to leave the saftey of your home as you will have no one to protect you on bay 13?

Id go for the later, your to gutless to argue on mutual ground to all, but if im wrong point us to a mutual secton of big footy where this can be continued! If your bird enoug lol

 

[Bluebear]

When will they learn.

 

[HBF]

If only the above mentioned problems, where the only problems carlton should have. Your lot has been on the bottom for the last 10 years. Maybe the carlton management could do with you as an addittion to their current board, i reckon you would fit in just nicely along side Pratt.

Actions speak louder than words and current our actions show us on the way up! The only way the blues can possiable get into a worse position is to be demoted from the AFL to the VFL.

If Pratt had nothing to fear, why did he settle out of court? your previous president landed you salary cap breachs....... Hell i'd take our last two presidents over your last two any day. At least our presidents didnt lose us our valuable draft picks.

....and now I have seen everything. Take a look at the 1999 gf, and see who played off in that.

Carlton also finished 3rd in 2000 and 6th in 2001. Might pay to check your facts before you post that kind of tripe again. But hey, never let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

 

[Miss_Hawk_Fan]

No we haven't!

2007 = 15th
2006 = 16th
2005 = 16th
2004 = 11th
2003 = 15th
2002 = 16th

2001 = 6th
2000 = 3rd
1999 = 2nd

1998 = 11th
1997 = 11th

Ok my stament isnt quite right, but the blues have been down the bottom more than they have been up the top in the last 10 / 11 years. The ratio here proves it 3/11

http://afl.allthestats.com/teams/seasbyseas.php?t1=3&t2=&gnd=0

 

[Miss_Hawk_Fan]

....and now I have seen everything. Take a look at the 1999 gf, and see who played off in that.

Carlton also finished 3rd in 2000 and 6th in 2001. Might pay to check your facts before you post that kind of tripe again. But hey, never let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

No probs mate, how about you check the facts above that i just posted, oh and by the way how many extra first round draft picks has carlton got and done nothing with?

 

[Bluebear]

2007 = 15th
2006 = 16th
2005 = 16th
2004 = 11th
2003 = 15th
2002 = 16th

2001 = 6th
2000 = 3rd
1999 = 2nd

1998 = 11th
1997 = 11th

Ok my stament isnt quite right, but the blues have been down the bottom more than they have been up the top in the last 10 / 11 years. The ratio here proves it 3/11

http://afl.allthestats.com/teams/seasbyseas.php?t1=3&t2=&gnd=0

How many Grand Finals have the Hawks played in during that period?
I count 1 chance in 10 years of us winning a flag, which, if you assume the draft and cap do even out the comp is better than the one in 16 years that clubs should average.............when was your last "chance"?

1991?

Wow, so since your last GF we have played in three and won 1..............don't you just love stats.

 

[HBF]

No probs mate, how about you check the facts above that i just posted, oh and by the way how many extra first round draft picks has carlton got and done nothing with?

I know where Carlton have finished over the previous 10 years, and they certainly have ben the darkest in our magnificent history. However, anyone with some foresight could have seen this coming. When we were sanctioned for Salary Cap breaches, we were an old list with quite a few of our very good players either recently retired, finishing up in 2001, or about to retire. The fact that we were not able to participate in the first rounds of the 2002 and 2003 drafts, we were always going to be down at the bottom for a few years.

And I don't know what our first round picks have got to do with anything, but here we go:

Andrew Walker: More athlete than footballer, but can break the lines and has speed. Can also go back, and play on tall forward. Saw him shut down Trent Croad a few years ago after he tore Whitnall a new one in the 1st qtr

Jordan Russell: Has struggled to find his feet at AFL level, and 2008 will be a make a break year for him. Perhaps a change of coach, game plan, and to spend some time with a development coach might just be the thing he needs

Marc Murphy: Touted as a future captain of the Carlton Footy Club. Had a quiet 2007 and a great debut season, but being tagged each week after Stevens was injured didn't help. With Stevens back, and some bloke called Judd coming to the club, I would like to think he will have a big 2008

Bryce Gibbs: Make no mistake, Bryce will be a very very good player. In his first year, he has already shown his versatility by playing back, midfield and forward. Has sublime skills, and will play alot more in the midfield in 2008, with stints on a HFF.

 

[Miss_Hawk_Fan]

How many Grand Finals have the Hawks played in during that period?
I count 1 chance in 10 years of us winning a flag, which, if you assume the draft and cap do even out the comp is better than the one in 16 years that clubs should average.............when was your last "chance"?

1991?

Wow, so since your last GF we have played in three and won 1..............don't you just love stats.

Yes i agree stats are great, but they dont take into consideration all the cheating carlton has done. Wonder what the statts would be if the leauge took of the blues their premiership trophy during there cheating years. Also lets take of the extra years and premiership that was won when it was the old vfl and had half teams.

Yes i love statts and the x factors that history dont take into account.......

 

[Miss_Hawk_Fan]

I know where Carlton have finished over the previous 10 years, and they certainly have ben the darkest in our magnificent history. However, anyone with some foresight could have seen this coming. When we were sanctioned for Salary Cap breaches, we were an old list with quite a few of our very good players either recently retired, finishing up in 2001, or about to retire. The fact that we were not able to participate in the first rounds of the 2002 and 2003 drafts, we were always going to be down at the bottom for a few years.

And I don't know what our first round picks have got to do with anything, but here we go:

Andrew Walker: More athlete than footballer, but can break the lines and has speed. Can also go back, and play on tall forward. Saw him shut down Trent Croad a few years ago after he tore Whitnall a new one in the 1st qtr

Jordan Russell: Has struggled to find his feet at AFL level, and 2008 will be a make a break year for him. Perhaps a change of coach, game plan, and to spend some time with a development coach might just be the thing he needs

Marc Murphy: Touted as a future captain of the Carlton Footy Club. Had a quiet 2007 and a great debut season, but being tagged each week after Stevens was injured didn't help. With Stevens back, and some bloke called Judd coming to the club, I would like to think he will have a big 2008

Bryce Gibbs: Make no mistake, Bryce will be a very very good player. In his first year, he has already shown his versatility by playing back, midfield and forward. Has sublime skills, and will play alot more in the midfield in 2008, with stints on a HFF.

Hey HBF, this wasnt really aimed at you, just the parrot really. Ive read your post before and i have enjoyed our conversation the few times we have spoke you seem like a decent poster, who takes the time to think and reply sincerely.

If you read back further via parrot and any hawk reply to him, you will understand more champ.

I think Murphy and Gibbs are going to be top players for your lot, i was referring to the earlier pick your club recieved after the afl took of some of your club some of the 1st round picks.


Wiggin is one example that comes to mind.... cheers

 

[AlecDuncan]

Well this thread has predictably deteriorated. Back to the OP, the only thing separating our list from being a finals side is experience and physical development. There's enough talent, it just needs to grow up a bit.

10th this year, finals the next. After that everyone needs good luck to take the final step.

 

[mediumsizered]

If only the above mentioned problems, where the only problems carlton should have. Your lot has been on the bottom for the last 10 years. Maybe the carlton management could do with you as an addittion to their current board, i reckon you would fit in just nicely along side Pratt.

Actions speak louder than words and current our actions show us on the way up! The only way the blues can possiable get into a worse position is to be demoted from the AFL to the VFL.

If Pratt had nothing to fear, why did he settle out of court? your previous president landed you salary cap breachs....... Hell i'd take our last two presidents over your last two any day. At least our presidents didnt lose us our valuable draft picks.

No they just sold off 4 of your home games each year. So while Melbourne based Carlton supporters get to attend 11 Carlton home games in Melbourne, Hawthorn supporters only get 7 Melbourne based home games. And in the long term, Hawthorn will continue to play these games in Tassie because turning a profit now depends on it. I thought it was amusing to recently see Alastair Clarkson photographed in a cap & t-shirt in Hawthorn colours but bearing the name Tasmania. Oh well, Jeff Kennett was always good at selling assets/organisations.

 

[HBF]

Hey HBF, this wasnt really aimed at you, just the parrot really. Ive read your post before and i have enjoyed our conversation the few times we have spoke you seem like a decent poster, who takes the time to think and reply sincerely.

If you read back further via parrot and any hawk reply to him, you will understand more champ.

I think Murphy and Gibbs are going to be top players for your lot, i was referring to the earlier pick your club recieved after the afl took of some of your club some of the 1st round picks.


Wiggin is one example that comes to mind.... cheers

Wiggins was actually at the club prior to the AFL sanctioning us for Salary Cap breaches. He was part of the 2000 draft that saw us take Livingston and Sporn before him.

 

[Miss_Hawk_Fan]

Wiggins was actually at the club prior to the AFL sanctioning us for Salary Cap breaches. He was part of the 2000 draft that saw us take Livingston and Sporn before him.

still an example of bad recruting over anumber of years, i agree the punishment from the afl didnt help, but the blues should of reap more reward for those draft pick listed, especially there double go at first round picks.

I just hope the hawks good work in recent years (we had a shocking run as well) and luck continues.....

 

[AlecDuncan]

Wiggin is one example that comes to mind.... cheers

Yes, the infamous 2000 draft. Fortunately that's eight years ago, and now we're much better at picking talent. It (and other pre-2002 drafts) left an experience gap in our list which has held us back. I don't think that will be a problem anymore.

 

[Miss_Hawk_Fan]

No they just sold off 4 of your home games each year. So while Melbourne based Carlton supporters get to attend 11 Carlton home games in Melbourne, Hawthorn supporters only get 7 Melbourne based home games. And in the long term, Hawthorn will continue to play these games in Tassie because turning a profit now depends on it. I thought it was amusing to recently see Alastair Clarkson photographed in a cap & t-shirt in Hawthorn colours but bearing the name Tasmania. Oh well, Jeff Kennett was always good at selling assets/organisations.

Im one hawk that has no issue with the Tassie deal, i would have an issue with my president if my president cost me slalry cap breach and and one was settling out of court with asic over fraud issues. Also the photo you are referring to im guessing is one where al clarko was recently in Tasmania doing marothon run in hobart, nothing like giving the sponcser value for moeny......

 

[Miss_Hawk_Fan]

Yes, the infamous 2000 draft. Fortunately that's eight years ago, and now we're much better at picking talent. It (and other pre-2002 drafts) left an experience gap in our list which has held us back. I don't think that will be a problem anymore.

In my opinion The last two years you have appeared to get better, but whilst impressive the new draftees are, they still need to prove there self as quality regulars over a 4 year period.

Yes i know, im still waiting for my hawk to that, 2008 should see them hopeful finish of that developement stage and get as ready for our next step, which i think is get finals in to our players and weed out those who cant cut it.... bring in the next lot of youngsters to add depth toour list

 

[HBF]

In my opinion The last two years you have appeared to get better, but whilst impressive the new draftees are, they still need to prove there self as quality regulars over a 4 year period.
Yes i know, im still waiting for my hawk to that, 2008 should see them hopeful finish of that developement stage and get as ready for our next step, which i think is get finals in to our players and weed out those who cant cut it.... bring in the next lot of youngsters to add depth toour list

That's a little hard to do when quite a few of them haven't been at the club for 4 years.

 

[Bluebear]

Im one hawk that has no issue with the Tassie deal, i would have an issue with my president if my president cost me slalry cap breach and and one was settling out of court with asic over fraud issues. Also the photo you are referring to im guessing is one where al clarko was recently in Tasmania doing marothon run in hobart, nothing like giving the sponcser value for moeny......

Once again having some credibility issues.
Check your facts.........VISY went TO court. The fine was $36 million.

You're club president set up all his mates with the best business deals in the State under the guise of a "tender process" while he was Premier.........sits nicely in the "it's only illegal if you get caught" area.

But hey, if you can get back on track and tell me what any of this has to do with "Are we a Finals Side?" then great.........I'm all ears, otherwise it has a wiff about it.

 

[Miss_Hawk_Fan]

Once again having some credibility issues.
Check your facts.........VISY went TO court. The fine was $36 million.

You're club president set up all his mates with the best business deals in the State under the guise of a "tender process" while he was Premier.........sits nicely in the "it's only illegal if you get caught" area.

But hey, if you can get back on track and tell me what any of this has to do with "Are we a Finals Side?" then great.........I'm all ears, otherwise it has a wiff about it.

Me get back on track, im just answering question being throwed at me by your mob, hence one of them was a mod.

If your management dont get off feild and on feild right, you have no chance in getting a flag in the comming years. The afl become strict with off with salary cap breach and as of next year player off feild behaviour will be held accountable by every club.

1. Presedients job, to get money legally, if you have no money you have no players and no admin.

2. Recruiting management, if the finance department gets it wrong, this section lose valuable picks and needs to be accurate with any picks left.

3. Very good chance off feild behaviour could cost clubs premiership point or draft picks.


The hawks appear to have one and two under control, with a few rumours flying about off feild behaviour but no evedience to sugguest it is any more serious than the other 14 clubs (wce in big strife, larger problem than the rest at this stage).

Carlton needs to keep an eye on its president who is supose to be leading the way and setting an example. Recruitment is improving and id be thankful that they got ride of lance whitnall, i dont think his weight had much to do with why carlton let him go (i know he had a dodge knee, but he had that for years) i think his public saga with his brother cost him a few more years at AFL level.

I believe if you have a problem in one of these areas it effects the other, look at wce its finally caught up to them and oh just ask the remaing fiathful fitzroy supporters how there management got it so wrong.

The hawks arent perfect, they where on the slide and they relised just in time to save them self, for know theyre getting it right. I dont believe the Afl want as many team in Victoria as it has so life for us vic clubs is going to get tough and we all need to be aware it will be survial of the thoughest and best management.

 

[Miss_Hawk_Fan]

That's a little hard to do when quite a few of them haven't been at the club for 4 years.

i think you referring to carlton draftees and yes that is what i was saying it is too hard to judge your recent draftees, the next couple of years will give you your answers, but i must ammit it is looking good.....

anyhow good luck in season 2008, think it will be more enjoyable for you blue supporters.

 

[AlecDuncan]

Once again having some credibility issues.
Check your facts.........VISY went TO court. The fine was $36 million.

And it wasn't a "fraud" case either.

 

[Bluebear]

Me get back on track, im just answering question being throwed at me by your mob, hence one of them was a mod.

If your management dont get off feild and on feild right, you have no chance in getting a flag in the comming years. The afl become strict with off with salary cap breach and as of next year player off feild behaviour will be held accountable by every club.

1. Presedients job, to get money legally, if you have no money you have no players and no admin.

2. Recruiting management, if the finance department gets it wrong, this section lose valuable picks and needs to be accurate with any picks left.

3. Very good chance off feild behaviour could cost clubs premiership point or draft picks.


The hawks appear to have one and two under control, with a few rumours flying about off feild behaviour but no evedience to sugguest it is any more serious than the other 14 clubs (wce in big strife, larger problem than the rest at this stage).

Carlton needs to keep an eye on its president who is supose to be leading the way and setting an example. Recruitment is improving and id be thankful that they got ride of lance whitnall, i dont think his weight had much to do with why carlton let him go (i know he had a dodge knee, but he had that for years) i think his public saga with his brother cost him a few more years at AFL level.

I believe if you have a problem in one of these areas it effects the other, look at wce its finally caught up to them and oh just ask the remaing fiathful fitzroy supporters how there management got it so wrong.

The hawks arent perfect, they where on the slide and they relised just in time to save them self, for know theyre getting it right. I dont believe the Afl want as many team in Victoria as it has so life for us vic clubs is going to get tough and we all need to be aware it will be survial of the thoughest and best management.

Interesting that you say this.

I have heard the whispers as well, and if you can convince yourself that WCE have a bigger problem then good for you.

This has much greater potential to derail the club than what has happened at VISY.
What is the evidence?

1. The AFL commission meet and discuss Pratt and VISY as an agenda item and the outcome is................no outcome. Nothing to happen.
2. The VISY problems have been known since the start of the year, and it went to court prior to 2 things happenning:

• Chris Judd signs with the club
• Hyundi sign one of the biggest sponsorships in AFL history
• Pratt overwhelmingky re-elected to the board at the AGM

Three things that indicate the brand of Carlton is strong and unaffected by the problems at VISY. AFL is unmoved, Players are happy, members are happy and sponsors are happy.........opposition supporters and biased lazy journo's opinions rate well below these.

What do you think the affect would be IF there was stronger evidence of a drug culture at your club?
Look to the west for your answer.
Players leaving or removed.
Sponsors jumping off after long term deals.
AFL calling for judicial enquiry.
Not sure what the members did at the AGM but they should have put a sword through the board that has allowed the club to sink so low.

 

[Miss_Hawk_Fan]

And it wasn't a "fraud" case either.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,22794520%5E20322,00.html


Pratt's role with Carlton has been under fierce scrutiny since he was fined $36 million for price-fixing as head of Visy through a secret cartel.

www.aic.gov.au/conferences/evaluation/smith.pdf

METHODOLOGICAL IMPEDIMENTS TO
RESEARCHING SERIOUS FRAUD IN AUSTRALIA
AND NEW ZEALAND
Russell G. Smith
Australian Institute of Criminology
Paper presented at the
Evaluation in Crime and Justice: Trends and Methods Conference
convened by the Australian Institute of Criminology
in conjunction with the Australian Bureau of Statistics
and held in Canberra, 24-25 March 2003


Fraud is one of the principal crime concerns of the twenty-first century that affects governments,
businesses and individuals alike. Financial crimes committed through dishonesty create anxiety in the community and have the capacity to ****** legitimate business development, as we have seen in the case of electronic commerce where security risks have slowed the implementation of on-line
business models. Losses can result in increased costs for consumers or depleted return on
investments as well as considerable losses of public sector revenue.
In August 1996, I gave a paper at the Australasian Heads of Fraud Conference at Perth
(subsequently published as Smith 1997). This conference was held annually during the 1990s for
the heads of police fraud squads from each state and territory in Australia and New Zealand. One
of the recommendations of this conference was that: ‘the Australian Institute of Criminology be
asked to provide assistance in addressing the issue of compiling national statistics in relation to
fraud’.

 

[Miss_Hawk_Fan]

Interesting that you say this.

I have heard the whispers as well, and if you can convince yourself that WCE have a bigger problem then good for you.

This has much greater potential to derail the club than what has happened at VISY.
What is the evidence?

1. The AFL commission meet and discuss Pratt and VISY as an agenda item and the outcome is................no outcome. Nothing to happen.
2. The VISY problems have been known since the start of the year, and it went to court prior to 2 things happenning:

• Chris Judd signs with the club
• Hyundi sign one of the biggest sponsorships in AFL history
• Pratt overwhelmingky re-elected to the board at the AGM

Three things that indicate the brand of Carlton is strong and unaffected by the problems at VISY. AFL is unmoved, Players are happy, members are happy and sponsors are happy.........opposition supporters and biased lazy journo's opinions rate well below these.

What do you think the affect would be IF there was stronger evidence of a drug culture at your club?
Look to the west for your answer.
Players leaving or removed.
Sponsors jumping off after long term deals.
AFL calling for judicial enquiry.
Not sure what the members did at the AGM but they should have put a sword through the board that has allowed the club to sink so low.

Yes i have read what you was saying, the blues are just lucky asic didnt take it further. I believe any afl supporter who believes that there club is drug fee is either a child or really isnt with reality.

The Hawks are subject to the same drug laws of the afl the same as any 16 clubs. If the other 15 clubs dont control it we will end up like wce.....

I dont think players will change clubs immidiatley, if the club management is handling it correctly and if rehab fails remove the concerning players on drugs, after all the team is bigger than one player. Yes i think chris judd left wce becuase of the drug culture, but he signed anther contract before he left being aware of the drug problem and took on the captain tag and made an effort to stay and help the club pull it self together again.

I dont think my club has a serious drug issue at this stage, the media become privvy to documents which have players on there second chance and it has been speculated it is my club. I reckon every afl club now would be bring in new process for handling drug and policeys. I think my club would be one of 16 doing that beofre season 2008 starts.