Are we cursed?

[Leviathan Pie]

Doesn't exist.

So no.

 

[SprooseMoose]

I don't know how much is "luck" or being "cursed". Or how much is due to "overachieving" (a trend of losing grand finals is achieving now? Man, we should feel good about that...). If it's bad luck or a curse that we lost our GFs, I doubt very much that our opponents would say it was down to good luck that they won. They'd tell you they worked for, and deserved their results. Might be "bad luck" for the Saints that the ball bounced the way it did in 2010, but try and tell me that we didn't deserve the eventual premiership.

I suspect that there may be some kind of psychology at play though. It has to get to the players every time we make a GF - the history of losing has to play on our minds. How could it not? Gets to me as a poor supporter, as it's plastered all over the media, every year, even when we don't make it. The entire country wanting you to lose every time you make a GF - can you imagine the pressure? I can't. That's a level of hatred, reserved for Collingwood. To cope with that like it's nothing would be almost inhuman. The general narrative of Collingwood lose Grand Finals is everywhere, and I wonder how much our players believe it.

That's why I'm glad that Bucks is all about "you get what you deserve" and "you make your own luck". Can you imagine how bad we'd be if we just put it down to bad luck? At least with our current approach, you can somewhat influence how much you deserve, or how much luck you make. So the good news is, if there's some psychology at play, it can be overcome. Question is, why the hell don't we ever manage to do that?

 

[PonsfordMagpie]

I'm 25 and seen 5 Grand Finals for 1 flag. Richmond have won 2 flags from 2 GF appearances in the space of three years.

The above stat is what kills me most. We just **** up every opportunity to win premierships, and Richmond who have been a pile of rubbish for 30+ years come out of nowhere and win 2 flags in 3 years against opposition sides who didn't bother to turn up on the day. Even in 2010, we nearly found a way to mess it up again.

We've underachieved for decades, but since Eddie's become president the underachieving has continued if you measure it by premierships. In reality we have should won three flags by now under his presidency (2002, 2010, 2018). We were clearly the second best in 2003 and 2011 on the day.

I don't know what our players and coaches were thinking today, but I hope they were stinging watching today because as a supporter it was dreadful realizing the opportunity we missed by losing to a rubbish team last week, because we didn't bother to show up until the last 20 minutes of the match. I don't know whether we would have won today but I can guarantee we would have provided a better contest than the Giants did.

I always live in the hope of next year, but I feel deflated today.

 

[TKiL]

I'm 25 and seen 5 Grand Finals for 1 flag. Richmond have won 2 flags from 2 GF appearances in the space of three years.

The above stat is what kills me most. We just **** up every opportunity to win premierships, and Richmond who have been a pile of rubbish for 30+ years come out of nowhere and win 2 flags in 3 years against opposition sides who didn't bother to turn up on the day. Even in 2010, we nearly found a way to mess it up again.

We've underachieved for decades, but since Eddie's become president the underachieving has continued if you measure it by premierships. In reality we have should won three flags by now under his presidency (2002, 2010, 2018). We were clearly the second best in 2003 and 2011 on the day.

I don't know what our players and coaches were thinking today, but I hope they were stinging watching today because as a supporter it was dreadful realizing the opportunity we missed by losing to a rubbish team last week, because we didn't bother to show up until the last 20 minutes of the match. I don't know whether we would have won today but I can guarantee we would have provided a better contest than the Giants did.

I always live in the hope of next year, but I feel deflated today.

From 1967 Richmond have won 7 flags and lost 2 GFs.
Pies have won 2 Flags and lost 9 GFs.
This fact sadly reinforced today.
During this time I suspect they have had longer periods of being totally out of contention and more memberships microwaved than us.
I don't think we will create a dynasty by looking at other clubs - we need to search deep, find our own formula - no doubt there's lots of components.
As a supporter I don't have the answers - I just record my observations of the club's results which are often disappointing.
Not saying flags are easy to win but a few clubs win them more than we do.

 

[Kreme Pie]

Ah, this thread on a day like today. So much to think about.

 

[domus]

That's why I'm glad that Bucks is all about "you get what you deserve" and "you make your own luck". Can you imagine how bad we'd be if we just put it down to bad luck? At least with our current approach, you can somewhat influence how much you deserve, or how much luck you make. So the good news is, if there's some psychology at play, it can be overcome. Question is, why the hell don't we ever manage to do that?

Saying we get what we deserve or make your own luck are both as dumb a statement as everything happens for a reason.

Would Bucks say that to a man who just got diagnosed with cancer or lost a kid? Of course not! I know these are extreme examples but it is simply to expose the statement for its idiocy. If you cannot apply it to every day life then you shouldn't apply it to football. There are endless examples of people who seem to have everything go against them. They lose a child. They get diagnosed with MND. They get retrenched while trying to pay a mortgage and raise five kids. This is all in spite of the fact that work hard every day and face life with integrity and courage. Then we have the people who are born healthy and stay that way despite the fact they don't work out or take particular care with their diet. They go to Monte Carlo for their annual holiday and win a hundred thousand bucks while they are there. Their kids are all happy and healthy. Are these people getting what they deserve or making their own luck?

We get what we deserve. Rings rather hollow doesn't it?

It's one of those sayings which sound profound and brave and honest...but it isn't. You can have terrible things happen to you for no good reason. You don't deserve them any more than people deserve or earn so many of the good things in life. The same applies to footy. There's nothing whiney or cowardly about saying to your team- you played well today boys and we were very stiff. Sometimes life kicks you in the guts and isn't fair. Let's try and take luck out of the equation next time we get a chance.

 

[SprooseMoose]

Saying we get what we deserve or make your own luck are both as dumb a statement as everything happens for a reason.

Would Bucks say that to a man who just got diagnosed with cancer or lost a kid? Of course not! I know these are extreme examples but it is simply to expose the statement for its idiocy. If you cannot apply it to every day life then you shouldn't apply it to football. There are endless examples of people who seem to have everything go against them. They lose a child. They get diagnosed with MND. They get retrenched while trying to pay a mortgage and raise five kids. This is all in spite of the fact that work hard every day and face life with integrity and courage. Then we have the people who are born healthy and stay that way despite the fact they don't work out or take particular care with their diet. They go to Monte Carlo for their annual holiday and win a hundred thousand bucks while they are there. Their kids are all happy and healthy. Are these people getting what they deserve or making their own luck?

We get what we deserve. Rings rather hollow doesn't it?

It's one of those sayings which sound profound and brave and honest...but it isn't. You can have terrible things happen to you for no good reason. You don't deserve them any more than people deserve or earn so many of the good things in life. The same applies to footy. There's nothing whiney or cowardly about saying to your team- you played well today boys and we were very stiff. Sometimes life kicks you in the guts and isn't fair. Let's try and take luck out of the equation next time we get a chance.

I ultimately agree, but if you're in charge of a football club you need to take the attitude that leaves as little to chance as possible. Otherwise it's kind of accepting that bad luck just happens, and there was never any thing you could have done or changed about it, and nothing to learn going forward that might prevent it happening again. Bad football luck isn't often actual bad luck like a genetic disease or something, it's more often than not the ultimate product of decisions made before and during a game by many people that cultivates at that moment.

 

[Obese Arachnid]

Cursed?

Do some of you believe in imaginary sky wizards as well?

 

[10571z]

Cursed no. But we never seem to just win a grand final that we shouldn’t.

Still we won a flag 9 Years ago which isn’t long in premiership droughts

 

[jmac70]

Cursed?

Do some of you believe in imaginary sky wizards as well?

#magichappens

 

[Vicky Park]

Given Richmond are the current benchmark, and rightly so, I await with interest how we approach our impending trades and delistings. I appreciate the fine balance between a brutal delisting - such as Broomy - and the message it sends to his teammates. And I’m glad I don’t have to make that decision, but I’m not paid to do so. Talk of Reid staying on for another year also concerns me. Seriously?

Richmond have a great list and have had a reasonable run with injuries. They are well coached and have recruited well. Where is their equivalent of a Reid let alone a Wells in the last 3-5 years? Happy to be corrected by those who know their list better.

They’ve also done the hard yards at the top. Appointed an excellent modern President and (from a distance) quality administrators and club leaders. This team turned around a behemoth which underperformed for decades, not just years.

We have some of the above but not all. Which brings me to Eddie. I know many posters don’t like criticism of Ed, and agree that he would move heaven and earth to benefit our club. But is Eddie right for 2020? I love him but our club is not his personal fiefdom. Is he the best we can do? He’s had many slip-ups, and I’m not just talking verbal gaffes. The disaster which was Gubby Allen springs to mind, and it wasn’t that long ago. The fact that Richmond walked away with Neil Balme rubs even more salt into that wound.

 

[jmac70]

Given Richmond are the current benchmark, and rightly so, I await with interest how we approach our impending trades and delistings. I appreciate the fine balance between a brutal delisting - such as Broomy - and the message it sends to his teammates. And I’m glad I don’t have to make that decision, but I’m not paid to do so. Talk of Reid staying on for another year also concerns me. Seriously?

Richmond have a great list and have had a reasonable run with injuries. They are well coached and have recruited well. Where is their equivalent of a Reid let alone a Wells in the last 3-5 years? Happy to be corrected by those who know their list better.

They’ve also done the hard yards at the top. Appointed an excellent modern President and (from a distance) quality administrators and club leaders. This team turned around a behemoth which underperformed for decades, not just years.

We have some of the above but not all. Which brings me to Eddie. I know many posters don’t like criticism of Ed, and agree that he would move heaven and earth to benefit our club. But is Eddie right for 2020? I love him but our club is not his personal fiefdom. Is he the best we can do? He’s had many slip-ups, and I’m not just talking verbal gafs. The disaster which was Gubby Allen springs to mind, and it wasn’t that long ago. The fact that Richmond walked away with Neil Balme rubs even more salt into that wound.

Eddie is doing a great job. There is no need for change.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Eddie is doing a great job. There is no need for change.

I kind of agree, with the exception that planning for a change over (when ever that may be) is not necessarily a bad thing

 

[Scritchyscroony]

Given Richmond are the current benchmark, and rightly so, I await with interest how we approach our impending trades and delistings. I appreciate the fine balance between a brutal delisting - such as Broomy - and the message it sends to his teammates. And I’m glad I don’t have to make that decision, but I’m not paid to do so. Talk of Reid staying on for another year also concerns me. Seriously?

Richmond have a great list and have had a reasonable run with injuries. They are well coached and have recruited well. Where is their equivalent of a Reid let alone a Wells in the last 3-5 years? Happy to be corrected by those who know their list better.

They’ve also done the hard yards at the top. Appointed an excellent modern President and (from a distance) quality administrators and club leaders. This team turned around a behemoth which underperformed for decades, not just years.

We have some of the above but not all. Which brings me to Eddie. I know many posters don’t like criticism of Ed, and agree that he would move heaven and earth to benefit our club. But is Eddie right for 2020? I love him but our club is not his personal fiefdom. Is he the best we can do? He’s had many slip-ups, and I’m not just talking verbal gafs. The disaster which was Gubby Allen springs to mind, and it wasn’t that long ago. The fact that Richmond walked away with Neil Balme rubs even more salt into that wound.

After we have made the gf and a prelim the last 2 years is a funny time to be asking that question about Ed. What is the driver for change at the moment in your opinion?

 

[jonbe54]

After we have made the gf and a prelim the last 2 years is a funny time to be asking that question about Ed. What is the driver for change at the moment in your opinion?

For some people it's never a funny time to demand Ed's departure.

Lots of agendas on here.

 

[Vicky Park]

After we have made the gf and a prelim the last 2 years is a funny time to be asking that question about Ed. What is the driver for change at the moment in your opinion?

Given I've opened this up for discussion, I'll try to answer this as honestly as I can.

Firstly, I admit that I've focused on Eddie before when going through yet another existential crisis over Collingwood. Richmond winning a flag by 89 points will do that to you, and I was there yesterday, experiencing the fans exultation right through to the final siren, after which I (literally) ran away. As I posted after the game, I've had more fun at the dentist. A filling without anaesthetic comes to mind.

But more relevantly, Eddie's gaffes over the years indicate someone who is out of touch with contemporary thinking and behaviours. While the gaffes can be laughed off, his media mates can scoff at the 'faux outrage', and Eddie (eventually) apologises, these things can and do reflect on our club, rightly or wrongly that is the perception. I'm not sure I want to be 'side by side' with someone who says those things. I appreciate that Eddie has come around on the Goodes issue, to his absolute credit.

And if there is an underlying issue with impetuous outbursts or some screwed up thinking - does this carry through to decisions made at the club? I concede this is a long bow to draw, but was Gubby Allen a rushed decision? Beams (not putting this all down to Ed)? Is there a tendency, even slighly, to favour old mates and favourite sons? This can work - e.g. Bucks and Maxy - but its not healthy.

I also concede that I now have some envy of the Tigers, and in looking at that club I want my club to be as good. To raise our standards. Ed was appointed in 1999 - is it wrong to think that some fresh and modern thinking wouldn't go astray in raising these standards?

This is not a personal agenda, as jonbe implies in the above post. I try to be balanced and objective when posting on issues such as this. But it is hard, and maybe my love for our club clouds my judgement on Eddie too.

 

[Queenie Hearts]

Given Richmond are the current benchmark, and rightly so, I await with interest how we approach our impending trades and delistings. I appreciate the fine balance between a brutal delisting - such as Broomy - and the message it sends to his teammates. And I’m glad I don’t have to make that decision, but I’m not paid to do so. Talk of Reid staying on for another year also concerns me. Seriously?

Richmond have a great list and have had a reasonable run with injuries. They are well coached and have recruited well. Where is their equivalent of a Reid let alone a Wells in the last 3-5 years? Happy to be corrected by those who know their list better.

They’ve also done the hard yards at the top. Appointed an excellent modern President and (from a distance) quality administrators and club leaders. This team turned around a behemoth which underperformed for decades, not just years.

We have some of the above but not all. Which brings me to Eddie. I know many posters don’t like criticism of Ed, and agree that he would move heaven and earth to benefit our club. But is Eddie right for 2020? I love him but our club is not his personal fiefdom. Is he the best we can do? He’s had many slip-ups, and I’m not just talking verbal gaffes. The disaster which was Gubby Allen springs to mind, and it wasn’t that long ago. The fact that Richmond walked away with Neil Balme rubs even more salt into that wound.

Ed has had over 20 years in the role and with his gaffes can do more harm than good. He certainly means well but with such a big personality is polarising. With his media interests, people do not appear to want to challenge him. The Board is all about him.

There are supporters out there I understand that love him but I find him embarrassing at times and hard to defend. As president he had one real job and that is to choose the CEO and the Senior Coach. Gary Pert and the succession plan set us back.

It is time for some fresh thinking. The recent success of Peter Murphy’s review which appeared to unwind a number of poor decisions at the club (including forcing a cultural turnaround, a change in attitude of the senior coach and a change of CEO) are testament to that need.

Even if he were fabulous, there is a need to have turnover at the top. 20 years is ridiculously poor governance. Notably both Richmond and Hawthorn have term limits for directors and the President in their constitutions. Peggy brought it in when she stepped into the role.

He is up for re-election in February for a further 3 years. He needs to give someone else a go.






Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[jonbe54]

Given I've opened this up for discussion, I'll try to answer this as honestly as I can.

Firstly, I admit that I've focused on Eddie before when going through yet another existential crisis over Collingwood. Richmond winning a flag by 89 points will do that to you, and I was there yesterday, experiencing the fans exultation right through to the final siren, after which I (literally) ran away. As I posted after the game, I've had more fun at the dentist. A filling without anaesthetic comes to mind.

But more relevantly, Eddie's gaffes over the years indicate someone who is out of touch with contemporary thinking and behaviours. While the gaffes can be laughed off, his media mates can scoff at the 'faux outrage', and Eddie (eventually) apologises, these things can and do reflect on our club, rightly or wrongly that is the perception. I'm not sure I want to be 'side by side' with someone who says those things. I appreciate that Eddie has come around on the Goodes issue, to his absolute credit.

And if there is an underlying issue with impetuous outbursts or some screwed up thinking - does this carry through to decisions made at the club? I concede this is a long bow to draw, but was Gubby Allen a rushed decision? Beams (not putting this all down to Ed)? Is there a tendency, even slighly, to favour old mates and favourite sons? This can work - e.g. Bucks and Maxy - but its not healthy.

I also concede that I now have some envy of the Tigers, and in looking at that club I want my club to be as good. To raise our standards. Ed was appointed in 1999 - is it wrong to think that some fresh and modern thinking wouldn't go astray in raising these standards?

This is not a personal agenda, as jonbe implies in the above post. I try to be balanced and objective when posting on issues such as this. But it is hard, and maybe my love for our club clouds my judgement on Eddie too.

Never pointed that at you Vicky but at others and they know who they are - you probably do too.

Ed has his faults but the good far outweighs the bad, the biggest problem with the agenda people is that he 'embarrasses' them - FMD they need to grow a pair.

No curse is in operation but the pigheaded refusal to acknowledge that the decision to adopt our current training ground has probably cost us two flags. That and the refusal to hire full time specialist coaches because of the footy department tax.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Given I've opened this up for discussion, I'll try to answer this as honestly as I can.

Firstly, I admit that I've focused on Eddie before when going through yet another existential crisis over Collingwood. Richmond winning a flag by 89 points will do that to you, and I was there yesterday, experiencing the fans exultation right through to the final siren, after which I (literally) ran away. As I posted after the game, I've had more fun at the dentist. A filling without anaesthetic comes to mind.

But more relevantly, Eddie's gaffes over the years indicate someone who is out of touch with contemporary thinking and behaviours. While the gaffes can be laughed off, his media mates can scoff at the 'faux outrage', and Eddie (eventually) apologises, these things can and do reflect on our club, rightly or wrongly that is the perception. I'm not sure I want to be 'side by side' with someone who says those things. I appreciate that Eddie has come around on the Goodes issue, to his absolute credit.

And if there is an underlying issue with impetuous outbursts or some screwed up thinking - does this carry through to decisions made at the club? I concede this is a long bow to draw, but was Gubby Allen a rushed decision? Beams (not putting this all down to Ed)? Is there a tendency, even slighly, to favour old mates and favourite sons? This can work - e.g. Bucks and Maxy - but its not healthy.

I also concede that I now have some envy of the Tigers, and in looking at that club I want my club to be as good. To raise our standards. Ed was appointed in 1999 - is it wrong to think that some fresh and modern thinking wouldn't go astray in raising these standards?

This is not a personal agenda, as jonbe implies in the above post. I try to be balanced and objective when posting on issues such as this. But it is hard, and maybe my love for our club clouds my judgement on Eddie too.

Well reasoned and well stated

I'll state up front, I am a huge supporter of Ed

Overall I think Ed has been really good for Collingwood but even I acknowledge he has made some monumental mistakes (I think even Ed would agree on that)
This is where I find myself in a dilemma, does my passion for Collingwood override my Social Conscience....I wrestle with it all the time

I have absolutely no doubt Ed's time is drawing near I suspect he may stand down at the end of this term or perhaps the next, which should give us time to do some very thorough succession planning (I'm not suggesting the membership shouldn't ultimately decide via the voting process)
We should seek out the best candidates and ask them to consider running, the last thing we want is some nuff nuff who thinks our hamburgers are too expensive turning the process into a media circus (I acknowledge it is the right of any Member to nominate)

I guess my point is....what next after Ed?

 

[Vicky Park]

I guess my point is....what next after Ed?

For all my pontificating, I have absolutely no clue!

Names thrown up from time to time include Craig Kelly and James Clement. Favourite sons again! But (as I understand) successful businessmen and very sharp tools.

 

[Nuwanda]

Given I've opened this up for discussion, I'll try to answer this as honestly as I can.

Firstly, I admit that I've focused on Eddie before when going through yet another existential crisis over Collingwood. Richmond winning a flag by 89 points will do that to you, and I was there yesterday, experiencing the fans exultation right through to the final siren, after which I (literally) ran away. As I posted after the game, I've had more fun at the dentist. A filling without anaesthetic comes to mind.

But more relevantly, Eddie's gaffes over the years indicate someone who is out of touch with contemporary thinking and behaviours. While the gaffes can be laughed off, his media mates can scoff at the 'faux outrage', and Eddie (eventually) apologises, these things can and do reflect on our club, rightly or wrongly that is the perception. I'm not sure I want to be 'side by side' with someone who says those things. I appreciate that Eddie has come around on the Goodes issue, to his absolute credit.

And if there is an underlying issue with impetuous outbursts or some screwed up thinking - does this carry through to decisions made at the club? I concede this is a long bow to draw, but was Gubby Allen a rushed decision? Beams (not putting this all down to Ed)? Is there a tendency, even slighly, to favour old mates and favourite sons? This can work - e.g. Bucks and Maxy - but its not healthy.

I also concede that I now have some envy of the Tigers, and in looking at that club I want my club to be as good. To raise our standards. Ed was appointed in 1999 - is it wrong to think that some fresh and modern thinking wouldn't go astray in raising these standards?

This is not a personal agenda, as jonbe implies in the above post. I try to be balanced and objective when posting on issues such as this. But it is hard, and maybe my love for our club clouds my judgement on Eddie too.

Fantastic post. There is such thing as ‘too long’ in a post. Eddie has done a great job, however, the club hasn’t grown to what it should be over the past decade. It’s rare for someone to be in his post for such a long time.

And yes, like it or not, Richmond is the benchmark both on and off the field. You have to give them credit for turning it around and now being the dominant club in the league.

 

[jonbe54]

Fantastic post. There is such thing as ‘too long’ in a post. Eddie has done a great job, however, the club hasn’t grown to what it should be over the past decade. It’s rare for someone to be in his post for such a long time.

And yes, like it or not, Richmond is the benchmark both on and off the field. You have to give them credit for turning it around and now being the dominant club in the league.

I give them credit for having the lowest injury rate in the league for the last 5 or so years - THAT is the difference.

If we had not been pigheaded in refusing to admit our new training ground was causing problems we would have matched or bettered them.

Don't drink the Richmond media mafia mate - they have been in the fortunate with injuries and reaped the rewards.

That has nothing to do with admin.

 

[magpienato]

I hate this self wallowing in self-pity bullshit. It took them 40 years to wake up from their last flag, and only took us 6 years to get back in contention. This footy club has the right tools to be as successful in this decade, it's all about the execution. Winning flags sure looks easy when you're beating a 6th placed interstate basketcase in the GWS.

 

[Nuwanda]

By the way, I HATE the title of this thread.

The term ‘cursed’ is terrible. A cop out. A loser’s mentality.

 

[jonbe54]

By the way, I HATE the title of this thread.

The term ‘cursed’ is terrible. A cop out. A loser’s mentality.

Well deal with it or move on. I understand the concept but disagree with the content.