Rumour Are we going to lose Brett Ratten?

plugger66

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Both are probably where they deserve to be
Yes that’s correct and it proves that the best coaches can struggle with ordinary lists. That’s why I reckon our coaching this year has been good. Unfortunately the record before will probably hurt richo.
 

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Mowman

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I agree, he's done nothing but it's not in isolation, the whole club has been pretty badly mismanaged. We took an eye of the footy department and had no real interest in anything but letting it run it's self with the belief that it was improving without evidence, we left them alone as long as they didn't ask for anything.
Well if that is the case then maybe StCicatriz is right when he says Finnis needs to be looked at as well
 

Mikka84

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Their side is much better than ours even injured. We go out desperate to win every game while Clarko might be developing for an assault next year or what ever. Our list would be nearly the worst side we have put up since the early 80s with our outs and probably only GC looks worse.
I’d argue that their structure and gameplan makes some of their players look a lot better than they are. Put them in a different side and see what happens. They are also going through a transition phase with their senior players. Yes they have good players, and granted our injuries have been at the top end, Steven, Robbo & Carlisle the biggest.

Anyway enough about who is and isn’t better.. I guess we’ll judge end of the year.
 

plugger66

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Well if that is the case then maybe StCicatriz is right when he says Finnis needs to be looked at as well
Think he has fixed up most of the issues now. You don’t replace people if they fix errors and especially if there no better options. The one thing our club do well is continue to replace people and then they fail and we repeat. Finnis is doing a fine job now.
 

triggering bro

Norm Smith Medallist
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Round 6, 2017, Saints beat Hawks by 75 points.

People were saying we were on the way up & Hawks on the way down due to an ageing list.

Since then Richo has failed to lead the development of his young players & the team has regressed. Meanwhile Clarko has completely reinvented his team.

Funny how our list now sucks & the Hawks list is better. I would’ve thought it was easy to see why.

When comparing Richo vs Clarko we are talking about one of the worst performed coaches in our entire history verse one of the greatest ever coaches.
 
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plugger66

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Round 17, 2017, Saints beat Hawks by 75 points.

People were saying we were on the way up & Hawks on the way down due to an ageing list.

Since then Richo has failed to lead the development of his young players & the team has regressed. Meanwhile Clarko has completely reinvented his team.

Funny how our list now sucks & the Hawks list is better. I would’ve thought it was easy to see why.

When comparing Richo vs Clarko we are talking about one of the worst performed coaches in our entire history verse one of the greatest ever coaches.
Pretty sure the person posting was talking only about this year. Solely blaming or praising a coach for the list is a bit much. Gringo got it 100% right. It’s many different things. Just look at the profits the hawks make compared to us. Just proves their club has been better run in all departments for many years
 

gringo2011

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I’d argue that their structure and gameplan makes some of their players look a lot better than they are. Put them in a different side and see what happens. They are also going through a transition phase with their senior players. Yes they have good players, and granted our injuries have been at the top end, Steven, Robbo & Carlisle the biggest.

Anyway enough about who is and isn’t better.. I guess we’ll judge end of the year.

I have mates who follow the Hawks, I think people don't realise how good some of their players are. Gunston for example is a guy who can kick 6 goals in a GF and is a match winner and if not elite he's A grade, Isaac Smith is A grade, Bruest is still a gun, Sheils is still at least B+, Jaeger O'Meara was tracking to be the best player of his generation, he's slowed but still A grade, Stratton is A grade, Sicily is knob but a gun, Mc Evoy elite, Hardwick and Worpol tracking to be above average etc. Scully is a gun as well and they get Mitchell back next year.
 

gringo2011

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Round 6, 2017, Saints beat Hawks by 75 points.

People were saying we were on the way up & Hawks on the way down due to an ageing list.

Since then Richo has failed to lead the development of his young players & the team has regressed. Meanwhile Clarko has completely reinvented his team.

Funny how our list now sucks & the Hawks list is better. I would’ve thought it was easy to see why.

When comparing Richo vs Clarko we are talking about one of the worst performed coaches in our entire history verse one of the greatest ever coaches.
They still have a decent skeleton list then added guns to the list from other clubs. The destination club thing gets them players.
 

triggering bro

Norm Smith Medallist
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Pretty sure the person posting was talking only about this year. Solely blaming or praising a coach for the list is a bit much. Gringo got it 100% right. It’s many different things. Just look at the profits the hawks make compared to us. Just proves their club has been better run in all departments for many years
Solely blaming or praising? I think you quoted the wrong post.
 

triggering bro

Norm Smith Medallist
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They still have a decent skeleton list then added guns to the list from other clubs. The destination club thing gets them players.
The players theyve added have all improved &/or overcome pretty bad injuries since moving to the Hawks. You could plug Weller into the Hawks 22 & he’d be the next Ablett snr.
 

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plugger66

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Solely blaming it praising? I think you quoted the wrong post.
No I read it again. You only mention Clarkson for praise and richo for blame. No mention of bad drafting or good drafting. No mention of many factors that make us poor and hawks good.
 

plugger66

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The players theyve added have all improved &/or overcome pretty bad injuries since moving to the Hawks. You could plug Weller into the Hawks 22 & he’d be the next Ablett snr.
Pretty sure nearly every player we have got from other clubs lately have improved.
 

triggering bro

Norm Smith Medallist
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No I read it again. You only mention Clarkson for praise and richo for blame. No mention of bad drafting or good drafting. No mention of many factors that make us poor and hawks good.
Yup I also read it again & I still don’t understand how you interpreted it as I solely blame Richo.
 

mightymalaka

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Yep they have an ordinary list but I think once you take injuries into account ours is worse - much worse so either Clarko has underachieved or Richo has overachieved this year.

As for the beginning of a rebuild - I'm not sure that picking up Wingard, Scully etc indicates a team that believes its in full rebuild mode. That said I reckon they might be next year especially after they lose Roughead, Burgoyne and maybe Frawley.

Not sure about the wisdom of signing Wingard on a 5 year $800k contract especially given his history of ongoing soft tissue injuries - and now has had two hammies and calf injury so far this season. (jeez - and we cop it for signing Hannebery)
Will give you the injury scenario and totally agree re Wingard
But just because you are rebuilding, it does not exclude you from picking up talent when you see it! Especially on the cheap the way they did!
Wingard and Scully cost them sweet F all!
 

Mowman

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Will give you the injury scenario and totally agree re Wingard
But just because you are rebuilding, it does not exclude you from picking up talent when you see it! Especially on the cheap the way they did!
Wingard and Scully cost them sweet F all!
And Wingard & Scully choice of club would've had a lot do with who the coach was
 

Mikka84

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I have mates who follow the Hawks, I think people don't realise how good some of their players are. Gunston for example is a guy who can kick 6 goals in a GF and is a match winner and if not elite he's A grade, Isaac Smith is A grade, Bruest is still a gun, Sheils is still at least B+, Jaeger O'Meara was tracking to be the best player of his generation, he's slowed but still A grade, Stratton is A grade, Sicily is knob but a gun, Mc Evoy elite, Hardwick and Worpol tracking to be above average etc. Scully is a gun as well and they get Mitchell back next year.
Sack the coach
 

plugger66

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Will give you the injury scenario and totally agree re Wingard
But just because you are rebuilding, it does not exclude you from picking up talent when you see it! Especially on the cheap the way they did!
Wingard and Scully cost them sweet F all!
They have clarko. Players want to play under the best coach. We have richo. No one cares one way or another if they play under him. Same thing next year if we have ratten or Scott. No one will be coming for the coach
 

triggering bro

Norm Smith Medallist
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Because you only mention him and clarko.
So every time I discuss Richo I need to add a disclaimer that it ain’t all his fault?

Ffs I said Richo has lead the development of the club. Someone leading also has a team/others contributing.

This back & forth has wasted bandwidth. A nothing point you raised!
 

FlyingSledghamer

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They still have a decent skeleton list then added guns to the list from other clubs. The destination club thing gets them players.
This is a big factor in tge differences between the 2 coaches.
Not only is Clarko a better decision maker. And probably general coach in every way. He has the 'play for me' factor so hawks are always replenishing there list of good mature players unlike Richo.
Burgoyne, Mitchell, (McEvoy), Omeara, Gibson, Frawly, Scully, Wingard.
And they get them cheaper too
Compare that to us. We can't even lure a guy on 1.5.
We shouldn't even be comparing lists it's not the same playing field.
 

gringo2011

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The players theyve added have all improved &/or overcome pretty bad injuries since moving to the Hawks. You could plug Weller into the Hawks 22 & he’d be the next Ablett snr.

I agree that they took risks on injury plagued players and they came up trumps. But they haven't really improved so much as be used to what they're best suited to. Acres would be used as a rangy line breaking wing man for example. I heard some talking about how Clarko backs players in on their good points rather than trying to beat them up for their deficiencies or change them. I think that's what makes him an exceptional coach. He backs his players in to do what they do well.
 

plugger66

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So every time I discuss Richo I need to add a disclaimer that it ain’t all his fault?

Ffs I said Richo has lead the development of the club. Someone leading also has a team/others contributing.

This back & forth has wasted bandwidth. A nothing point you raised!
Ok
 
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