News Are We Really Improving?

[Tigerbob]

I'm going to drive through your area tomorrow lol

I'll let my homies know....

 

[tigs2010]

I'll let my homies know....

Lol at a 40-60yo having homies

 

[Tigerbob]

Lol at a 40-60yo having homies

That's how I roll. Don't mess with me. Keep your windows up and doors locked. That's all I'll say.

 

[Tigerbob]

Dude in a way I am too, but one of the few things in life I take very seriously is this football club (probably too seriously sometimes if I am being honest).

If you offered me $100,000 cash right now, or gave me the chance to turn it away but that guaranteed Richmond would win the next 3 premierships, I wouldn't take the money. And I know it's easy to say that on an internet forum lol, but I'm dead serious about that!

This club is everything to me, and I hate it when I see fellow supporters ripping the heart out of it with negativity. We NEED to be behind them, and totally committed to seeing this vision out, because in all honesty, the SUPPORTERS are the ones to blame for alot of the shit that happened in the 80's and 90's, and maybe even early 00's.

It's our impatience that has spilled over and made previous admins/boardrooms make the snap, destabilizing decisions that destroyed the RFC in the last 30 years. THAT BULLSHIT MUST STOP!

And to have it stop, that means ALL of us getting on board, and trusting the people that are paid the big bucks, and have the expertise to get the job done. There simply cannot be room for another supporter-led mutiny at this football club, or it's curtains for us.

Believe it or not, and as silly as it sounds, if we're to COMPLETELY change the culture of this footy club, it actually starts on places like BigFooty, where the masses see how we conduct ourselves and how much pride we have in our people.

Dude.

I'm not like you. If I see problems I'm not gonna ignore it and grab some pom poms and do a dance for the club.

This club needs to prove itself.

If they need posters on Bigfooty to get behind them to be successful I give up. **** me.

Also I'm a 26 year member and donated to the FTF more than what I should have as my Mrs wanted to kill me when that much or our savings went, so if I want to express views not in the clubs best light, I'll ****ing do it.

Grab your pom poms and cheerlead as much as you want. I ain't joining it.

 

[Grockadoc]

I think there is a line between being critical of the club and being downright pessimistic and negative of it. Some people seem to have lost the ability to differentiate between the two.

I have been critical of the club, most notably in terms of recruitment and staff members, but others just try and find the negative in EVERYTHING the club does.

Be critical of the club, question decisions based on their merit, but do not be negative of the club for doing something proactive when they will be damn sure more informed and qualified to make that decision than a bunch of strangers on the internet who do not know the inner workings of the Richmond Football Club.

Don't be negative for hte sake of being negative. Provide valid reasons for your point of view.

 

[Tigerbob]

I think there is a line between being critical of the club and being downright pessimistic and negative of it. Some people seem to have the lines blurred on the differences.

I don't comprehend.

If I'm being critical but still buying memberships, attending every home game and most away games, buying merchandise etc then I'm ok or have I passed the line because I've been critical of the same issues all along?

 

[TigerImposter]

I just don't understand how people base development in terms of wins and losses, with no emphasis on the off field stuff.

A positive bottom line financially, board stability, quality assistant coaches and development staff, exceptional board members, a cohesive playing group.

All of these we currently have now, but have not had for decades. These sum up perfectly how much we have improved under Benny Gale and Dimma.

And these departments are all working to their maximum so much that they will launch passed our rivals. Wonderful speculation mate. Go and read the Arnot thread there's an area in there that needs money pumped into and more competent staff to help get the best kids into our team
Poor tradesmen and starting materials will only get you so far. I'm positive mate we are miles away from your speculation. The Geelong 2006 analogy ,we are nothing to that squad yet it continues to come up. Plus Costa and Cook took no short cuts. There team was based on mainly breeding and developing their own. DH is off the pace with this idea and thinks he can convert a fake oil painting of Mona Lisa into the real thing
Not being negative of your views just realistic

 

[Grockadoc]

And these departments are all working to their maximum so much that they will launch passed our rivals. Wonderful speculation mate. Go and read the Arnot thread there's an area in there that needs money pumped into and more competent staff to help get the best kids into our team
Poor tradesmen and starting materials will only get you so far. I'm positive mate we are miles away from your speculation. The Geelong 2006 analogy ,we are nothing to that squad yet it continues to come up. Plus Costa and Cook took no short cuts. There team was based on mainly breeding and developing their own. DH is off the pace with this idea and thinks he can convert a fake oil painting of Mona Lisa into the real thing
Not being negative of your views just realistic

Which of those do you disagree with?

A positive bottom line financially?

We have no debt, and have turned over profits for the past few years, with those profits increasing every year.

Exceptional Board Members and Board Stability?

We have had no sackings from the board, only those who have moved on to greener pastures and replaced them with qualified people. Benny Gale, Peggy O'Neal etc are all handy people to have as the brains trust for the club.

Quality Assistant Coaches and Development Staff:

This one might be a bit off, bit Chocco Williams and Ross Smith are highly rated outside the club, Brendon Lade is rated well amongst his peers and Ben Rutten has been valued as a great asset to any club he went to.

A cohesive playing group:

We have not had many players request to leave the club since Dimma took over. the boys have formed very close friendships with each other. More importantly they all respect each other.

What was it you disagreed with?

 

[Grockadoc]

I don't comprehend.

If I'm being critical but still buying memberships, attending every home game and most away games, buying merchandise etc then I'm ok or have I passed the line because I've been critical of the same issues all along?

The difference between being critical and being negative is providing reasoning for your assertions or your assumptions. If you have a point of view, back it up with a reason.

Example:

Critical of the club: Vlastuin is a great player and a future 200 gamer for us. He was the safe bet at our pick. However, Brodie Grundy was the biggest need for our club at the time of the draft, especially with Maric being injury prone with his groin and our weak ruck stocks. GRundy would have been an ideal fit for us going forward, as a quality ruckman is hard to come across. Hard at it midfielders are much easier to find in the draft, so we should have pulled the trigger on Grundy for list balance.

Negative of the club: Francis' recruiting has been terrible. Vlastuin over Grundy is a horrible decision.

Now, everyone is entitled to question the club, but if you do not provide reasons for your point of view, especially one that is criticising, it comes across as being negative and pessimistic.

 

[TigerImposter]

Which of those do you disagree with?

A positive bottom line financially?

We have no debt, and have turned over profits for the past few years, with those profits increasing every year.

Exceptional Board Members and Board Stability?

We have had no sackings from the board, only those who have moved on to greener pastures and replaced them with qualified people. Benny Gale, Peggy O'Neal etc are all handy people to have as the brains trust for the club.

Quality Assistant Coaches and Development Staff:

This one might be a bit off, bit Chocco Williams and Ross Smith are highly rated outside the club, Brendon Lade is rated well amongst his peers and Ben Rutten has been valued as a great asset to any club he went to.

A cohesive playing group:

We have not had many players request to leave the club since Dimma took over. the boys have formed very close friendships with each other. More importantly they all respect each other.

What was it you disagreed with?

Where it all starts mate
Players drafted and recruited. I dare you to read the new Arnot thread. You can't convert a pig's ear into a silk purse
Recruiting is we you get the major building blocks to the team which build aroubd for success. If you get a first rounder here and there with the odd later picks here and there you will never compile a team
Lids around nothing for years was the big failure
It got better around the Cotchin era , but its dropped off again bc no later talent drafted was identified

 

[Tigerbob]

The difference between being critical and being negative is providing reasoning for your assertions or your assumptions. If you have a point of view, back it up with a reason.

Example:

Critical of the club: Vlastuin is a great player and a future 200 gamer for us. He was the safe bet at our pick. However, Brodie Grundy was the biggest need for our club at the time of the draft, especially with Maric being injury prone with his groin and our weak ruck stocks. GRundy would have been an ideal fit for us going forward, as a quality ruckman is hard to come across. Hard at it midfielders are much easier to find in the draft, so we should have pulled the trigger on Grundy for list balance.

Negative of the club: Francis' recruiting has been terrible. Vlastuin over Grundy is a horrible decision.

Now, everyone is entitled to question the club, but if you do not provide reasons for your point of view, especially one that is criticising, it comes across as being negative and pessimistic.

What about being positive without providing an example?

What is that called?

 

[Grockadoc]

Where it all starts mate
Players drafted and recruited. I dare you to read the new Arnot thread. You can't convert a pig's ear into a silk purse
Recruiting is we you get the major building blocks to the team which build aroubd for success. If you get a first rounder here and there with the odd later picks here and there you will never compile a team
Lids around nothing for years was the big failure
It got better around the Cotchin era , but its dropped off again bc no later talent drafted was identified

Disagree. Without have a stable financial bottom line you can't get quality recruting officers and development coaches. Without quality recruiting and development officers, it doesn't matter how talented a draftee might be, if you can't develop them, the game is lost.

Just ask Melbourne.

Everything that transpires ON field is a culmination of the work of people OFF it.

So if we can make the club better off field by bringing in more quality coaches and development people, it is only going to help us in the long run.

 

[Grockadoc]

What about being positive without providing an example?

What is that called?

Delusion or Spin, particularly around these boards.

 

[ReaperX]

Dude.

I'm not like you. If I see problems I'm not gonna ignore it and grab some pom poms and do a dance for the club.

This club needs to prove itself.

If they need posters on Bigfooty to get behind them to be successful I give up. **** me.

Also I'm a 26 year member and donated to the FTF more than what I should have as my Mrs wanted to kill me when that much or our savings went, so if I want to express views not in the clubs best light, I'll ******* do it.

Grab your pom poms and cheerlead as much as you want. I ain't joining it.

This club does need to prove itself, I agree with you. We need to take the next step from where we are right now. And it's commendable that you have been a member for most of your life, and that you have contributed to the FTF as much as you did. That's great stuff, and it definitely gives you the right to have a critical opinion.

But the club HAS proven itself in some areas already, mostly in the off-field, but also in the on-field too. Did you expect us to win a premiership or be fighting for one, the first time we made the finals in over a decade? Or even the second time?

The problem with us is that we're an emotional bunch, and we react based on the now. Had that game against Port been closer, I don't think there'd be nearly as much pessimism around the club's decisions at the moment. But because we got towelled up, all of a sudden, the other stuff that we have achieved means nothing, and we're not "improving" enough?

Of the following things:

1) We had a 9 match winning streak from the end of the year (something we haven't done since the 70's) that propelled us into the finals from a ridiculously poor position.

People instead focus on the very poor start to the year, and that we lost some close matches that put is in a poor position. Which is ******ed, because obviously the club put things in place to get us back where we needed to be, otherwise we'd have finished the year 7-15 or 8-14 and just petered away. The character that the club showed in the last 9 weeks, to me at least, more than made up for the way things started. And whilst it's not acceptable to start like that again, I'm backing the club in to make sure it doesn't. They learned from their mistakes early in 2014, and they fixed it, so why are they still being crucified for them?

2) We made back to back finals series (first time since the 70's), and gained valuable finals experience for a 2nd year running.

People instead focus on the fact that we had a poor finals match against the Power. Once again, people forget the context of the season. Port Adelaide were a clear Top 4 team for the majority of the season, and but for a small lapse mid-year, would probably have finished 2nd or 3rd. Instead they finished 5th (due to a marginal loss to Fremantle in the final round, who they ended up beating 2 weeks later anyway), and when we faced them, they were at the peak of their powers. Hinkley had quite a good list that he took over at the start of 2013, and though he is a fine coach, and Kochie has done some great off-field stuff with the Power as well, they were in better shape than they appeared, and were only so bad in 2012 due to Primus being a very shit coach.

3) We cut the debt down to $0, and we broke our membership record AGAIN.

People instead focus on the fact that we missed the goals set in our initial plan, of getting 75,000 members and playing in 3 finals series, even though at the time those targets were viewed as extremely unlikely for us to even get close to.

Finally, and this is conveniently forgotten, but we've also started our own VFL team as well, which moving forward will fix the issues of player development that we currently have.

There are things to be annoyed about, and if there are genuine grievances with the way things are done, they should be voiced. But it's the smart-arse bs that you see on this forum sometimes (and not saying this is even you, just in general from some posters), especially in regards to Dimma, and certain players like Hampson, Grigg, Petterd, etc, that is ABSOLUTELY NOT CONSTRUCTIVE to producing a culture at this club that we can be proud of.

We are essentially the face of the club as supporters, there are hundreds of thousands of Tiger supporters out there, and only a small few actually post on sites like this. The majority just lurk (that's what I did for about 5 years after I signed up), and some people actually make decisions (such as going to games, buying memberships, etc) based on what people on these types of forums say about the club.

If there's continual, unwarranted, and snarky pessimism about the footy club on a regular basis, it can have impacts on the club as a whole. And whilst OBVIOUSLY the club isn't solely reliant on us as BigFooty posters to embrace the club's actions with a bit of faith (in-house isn't affected, it's more the casual lurking supporter that is influenced by places like this, as I've said), every little bit that we can do as supporters helps.

So, for example, saying something like:

"I'm worried about our development of players, and the fact that we've needed to rely on recruits from other clubs, and we definitely need to improve this. But hey, the club has been on the right track for a good 4-5 years now, so I'm gonna back the team in that we can get some of those kids up and going!"

is a fantastic way of being critical, but also balanced. Whereas...

"**** RICHMOND IS SO STUPID FOR GIVING UP PICK 32 FOR SHAUN HAMPSON, HAMPSON IS THE WORST PERSON IN THE WORLD, MAN I DONT GIVE A SHIT IF HIS FATHER DIED, IT'S NO EXCUSE, DUD DELIST IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND GRIGG PETTERD HOULI TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!! COTCHIN MIGHT AS WELL GO TO HAWTHORN WE'RE NEVER GOING TO WIN A FLAG HE'D BE BETTER OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

is ridiculous and not helpful whatsoever.

 

[ReaperX]

What about being positive without providing an example?

What is that called?

That's just as bad, in my book at least.

If you don't have any evidence to back up your claim/opinion, whether it's positive or negative, it becomes an unfounded and probably incorrect opinion, or at best an exaggerated version of the truth.

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

Firstly, don't disrespect me by labeling me a apologist as that is rubbish and quite frankly offensive. I have my own opinion, but i try to be balanced in my views. I find that has helped me to succeed in my personal and professional life so I wont change it to suit you.

back on topic.

So if Richmond FC had of recruited Waite, Higgins and Dal Santo for a crack at a short term flag, you would have been satisfied. I disagree with that view

Trying to be balanced in your views doesn't mean you are balanced in your views but 10 points for trying . I would of told Chris Newman 2013 was his last year and grabbed Dal Santo he would of preferred to come to Richmond over North back then but now they have over taken us unfortunately . He is a major part of that. Did you watch his finals series? Players with finals experience should have been on the charter.

 

[TigerImposter]

Disagree. Without have a stable financial bottom line you can't get quality recruting officers and development coaches. Without quality recruiting and development officers, it doesn't matter how talented a draftee might be, if you can't develop them, the game is lost.

Just ask Melbourne.

Everything that transpires ON field is a culmination of the work of people OFF it.

So if we can make the club better off field by bringing in more quality coaches and development people, it is only going to help us in the long run.

This is the chicken and the egg argument
To me the EF was the the rude awakening that we simply lacked talent or class
We were obviously fit bc we won 9 straight
Did you see the posts on the Arnot thread with our pick ups since 05 ?
Yes we all love Petterd Batchelor Grimes Morris Chaplin Houli Grigg Thomas etc etc etc bc they're Tigers,but in all seriousness the lot in the same squad will never bare fruit in September. Yes they will give us cheap thrills in the HA games and cheap discussion
We can get away playing maybe two at tops
Agree under Benny we've stepped out of the mire , but its time to shower off and get cleaner with our professionalism and only get the best in all departments so that quality results can be obtained on the field
Long way off ATM.

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

This club does need to prove itself, I agree with you. We need to take the next step from where we are right now. And it's commendable that you have been a member for most of your life, and that you have contributed to the FTF as much as you did. That's great stuff, and it definitely gives you the right to have a critical opinion.

But the club HAS proven itself in some areas already, mostly in the off-field, but also in the on-field too. Did you expect us to win a premiership or be fighting for one, the first time we made the finals in over a decade? Or even the second time?

The problem with us is that we're an emotional bunch, and we react based on the now. Had that game against Port been closer, I don't think there'd be nearly as much pessimism around the club's decisions at the moment. But because we got towelled up, all of a sudden, the other stuff that we have achieved means nothing, and we're not "improving" enough?

Of the following things:

1) We had a 9 match winning streak from the end of the year (something we haven't done since the 70's) that propelled us into the finals from a ridiculously poor position.

People instead focus on the very poor start to the year, and that we lost some close matches that put is in a poor position. Which is ******ed, because obviously the club put things in place to get us back where we needed to be, otherwise we'd have finished the year 7-15 or 8-14 and just petered away. The character that the club showed in the last 9 weeks, to me at least, more than made up for the way things started. And whilst it's not acceptable to start like that again, I'm backing the club in to make sure it doesn't. They learned from their mistakes early in 2014, and they fixed it, so why are they still being crucified for them?

2) We made back to back finals series (first time since the 70's), and gained valuable finals experience for a 2nd year running.

People instead focus on the fact that we had a poor finals match against the Power. Once again, people forget the context of the season. Port Adelaide were a clear Top 4 team for the majority of the season, and but for a small lapse mid-year, would probably have finished 2nd or 3rd. Instead they finished 5th (due to a marginal loss to Fremantle in the final round, who they ended up beating 2 weeks later anyway), and when we faced them, they were at the peak of their powers. Hinkley had quite a good list that he took over at the start of 2013, and though he is a fine coach, and Kochie has done some great off-field stuff with the Power as well, they were in better shape than they appeared, and were only so bad in 2012 due to Primus being a very shit coach.

3) We cut the debt down to $0, and we broke our membership record AGAIN.

People instead focus on the fact that we missed the goals set in our initial plan, of getting 75,000 members and playing in 3 finals series, even though at the time those targets were viewed as extremely unlikely for us to even get close to.

Finally, and this is conveniently forgotten, but we've also started our own VFL team as well, which moving forward will fix the issues of player development that we currently have.

There are things to be annoyed about, and if there are genuine grievances with the way things are done, they should be voiced. But it's the smart-arse bs that you see on this forum sometimes (and not saying this is even you, just in general from some posters), especially in regards to Dimma, and certain players like Hampson, Grigg, Petterd, etc, that is ABSOLUTELY NOT CONSTRUCTIVE to producing a culture at this club that we can be proud of.

We are essentially the face of the club as supporters, there are hundreds of thousands of Tiger supporters out there, and only a small few actually post on sites like this. The majority just lurk (that's what I did for about 5 years after I signed up), and some people actually make decisions (such as going to games, buying memberships, etc) based on what people on these types of forums say about the club.

If there's continual, unwarranted, and snarky pessimism about the footy club on a regular basis, it can have impacts on the club as a whole. And whilst OBVIOUSLY the club isn't solely reliant on us as BigFooty posters to embrace the club's actions with a bit of faith (in-house isn't affected, it's more the casual lurking supporter that is influenced by places like this, as I've said), every little bit that we can do as supporters helps.

So, for example, saying something like:

"I'm worried about our development of players, and the fact that we've needed to rely on recruits from other clubs, and we definitely need to improve this. But hey, the club has been on the right track for a good 4-5 years now, so I'm gonna back the team in that we can get some of those kids up and going!"

is a fantastic way of being critical, but also balanced. Whereas...

"**** RICHMOND IS SO STUPID FOR GIVING UP PICK 32 FOR SHAUN HAMPSON, HAMPSON IS THE WORST PERSON IN THE WORLD, MAN I DONT GIVE A SHIT IF HIS FATHER DIED, IT'S NO EXCUSE, DUD DELIST IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND GRIGG PETTERD HOULI TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!! COTCHIN MIGHT AS WELL GO TO HAWTHORN WE'RE NEVER GOING TO WIN A FLAG HE'D BE BETTER OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

is ridiculous and not helpful whatsoever.

As of this post you are the only member of this board to call Hampson the worst person in the world , everyone else has called him the worst player in the world. No wonder he has to go to man therapy to put up with people like you. Until now I've never seen anyone judge him as a person or make statements about what he is like other than on the football field.

Worst person in the world ? That is laughable as no one on here nows him to judge him as a person and they never have. It's time to get over yourself and just block the people that are calling a spade a spade. And quit with the " everyone was expecting us to win a flag this year crap as I've never seen that in here as well. We all know how far we have come from.
PS If you are under 16 then I apologise because I know this is an all ages board and kids get on here at times as well. I don't want to be debating football with minors other than the positive " I love every player that wears the jumper and have more posters on my wall than you sort of stuff."

 

[Grockadoc]

As of this post you are the only member of this board to call Hampson the worst person in the world , everyone else has called him the worst player in the world. No wonder he has to go to man therapy to put up with people like you. Until now I've never seen anyone judge him as a person or make statements about what he is like other than on the football field.

Worst person in the world ? That is laughable as no one on here nows him to judge him as a person and they never have. It's time to get over yourself and just block the people that are calling a spade a spade. And quit with the " everyone was expecting us to win a flag this year crap as I've never seen that in here as well. We all know how far we have come from.
PS If you are under 16 then I apologise because I know this is an all ages board and kids get on here at times as well. I don't want to be debating football with minors other than the positive " I love every player that wears the jumper and have more posters on my wall than you sort of stuff."

He was outlining the difference between being critically balanced and being negative, Rusty. I suggest you read it again.

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

He was outlining the difference between being critically balanced and being negative, Rusty. I suggest you read it again.

Pretty sure he called Hampson the worst person in the world. That's just not on The bloke may be the biggest spud ever to pull on a football jumper but who knows what he's like in real life. That's just unfair. I'm sick of all the Hampson bashing that goes on around here on the Internet . I just pray to God that he has the commonsense not to read it .

 

[sregit]

I thought this thread was about " is Richmond really improving" and it has been turned into a debate about those who believe Progress to be satisfactory as being positive posters and those with the opposite view (of which I am one) being negative in their views.

I believe people who do not demand success are what hold an organisation back. They are malingerers passing time and not adding any real value. Sadly too many Richmond supporters accept mediocrity from the club and that is what they get. Sure we have improved on where the club was 5 years ago. From such a low base, even very average improvement would have looked great.

Financially we have improved a lot. But RFC has a huge following and average gains in performance to a level where we were competitive, was alway going to see our bottom line improve dramatically. I would say we are where we should be in this area but still have a long way to go.

On field sadly is where I ( negative in view) can not see RFC is improving. This may be driven in many ways by the fact that we do not have large cash reserves or that a club that has had a history of debt may be reluctant to spend. Richmond needs to invest in its future. More top recruiting staff and coaches. Our recruiting in the last 2 years has been lamentable. There appears to be no consistency in our approach. Youth was the process that got us to finals in 2013 and then we strayed. Looks like another quick fix approach. Reject top up players have been recruited. I feel sick to my gut watching this club make the same mistakes over and over. Clubs that have won premierships have gone through rebuilds and the one thing they have done that we have not, is stayed consistent in their recruiting philosophies. Pick the best youth you can in the draft and via trading (also FA) pick only A-grade players. We should be past the point where we are topping up the list with rejects. I haven't seen list improvement in the past two trade periods and I will not comment on our picks in the drafts after our first picks for fear of using such bad language that I will be banned for years.

Other than improvement of youth selected 2 or 3 years ago due to more games experience, we are not improving at a rate that we can over take top clubs before we ourselves are passed by clubs using better recruiting principles. Our list is average/middle of the road and that's where we are positioned.

Sadly you who believe yourselves to be the positive posters have not shown us where the improvement will come from. You continually talk up average to below average players on our list as being top liners... I laugh when I read the attempts to pick a best 22. No more than about 8 - 10 of our squad would replace any of the 22 at hawthorn the swans or even port. Wake up we are miles from being a top side. Our rate of improvement has slowed dramatically to a point where unless we do something quite dramatic in the next trade period, you can start to look forward to the next rebuild.
What will be the excuses if we don't acquire a couple of top quality players in the next trade period? Losers except mediocrity under the guise of slow improvement. Winners go out and grab success. But my views are just negative.

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

I thought this thread was about " is Richmond really improving" and it has been turned into a debate about those who believe Progress to be satisfactory as being positive posters and those with the opposite view (of which I am one) being negative in their views.

I believe people who do not demand success are what hold an organisation back. They are malingerers passing time and not adding any real value. Sadly too many Richmond supporters accept mediocrity from the club and that is what they get. Sure we have improved on where the club was 5 years ago. From such a low base, even very average improvement would have looked great.

Financially we have improved a lot. But RFC has a huge following and average gains in performance to a level where we were competitive, was alway going to see our bottom line improve dramatically. I would say we are where we should be in this area but still have a long way to go.

On field sadly is where I ( negative in view) can not see RFC is improving. This may be driven in many ways by the fact that we do not have large cash reserves or that a club that has had a history of debt may be reluctant to spend. Richmond needs to invest in its future. More top recruiting staff and coaches. Our recruiting in the last 2 years has been lamentable. There appears to be no consistency in our approach. Youth was the process that got us to finals in 2013 and then we strayed. Looks like another quick fix approach. Reject top up players have been recruited. I feel sick to my gut watching this club make the same mistakes over and over. Clubs that have won premierships have gone through rebuilds and the one thing they have done that we have not, is stayed consistent in their recruiting philosophies. Pick the best youth you can in the draft and via trading (also FA) pick only A-grade players. We should be past the point where we are topping up the list with rejects. I haven't seen list improvement in the past two trade periods and I will not comment on our picks in the drafts after our first picks for fear of using such bad language that I will be banned for years.

Other than improvement of youth selected 2 or 3 years ago due to more games experience, we are not improving at a rate that we can over take top clubs before we ourselves are passed by clubs using better recruiting principles. Our list is average/middle of the road and that's where we are positioned.

Sadly you who believe yourselves to be the positive posters have not shown us where the improvement will come from. You continually talk up average to below average players on our list as being top liners... I laugh when I read the attempts to pick a best 22. No more than about 8 - 10 of our squad would replace any of the 22 at hawthorn the swans or even port. Wake up we are miles from being a top side. Our rate of improvement has slowed dramatically to a point where unless we do something quite dramatic in the next trade period, you can start to look forward to the next rebuild.
What will be the excuses if we don't acquire a couple of top quality players in the next trade period? Losers except mediocrity under the guise of slow improvement. Winners go out and grab success. But my views are just negative.

Ooooooh you'll go straight to hell for that one. Why can't you just enjoy your footy . Bloody doomsdayer! Have you tried barracking for another team you fair weather supporter

 

[TigerImposter]

I thought this thread was about " is Richmond really improving" and it has been turned into a debate about those who believe Progress to be satisfactory as being positive posters and those with the opposite view (of which I am one) being negative in their views.

I believe people who do not demand success are what hold an organisation back. They are malingerers passing time and not adding any real value. Sadly too many Richmond supporters accept mediocrity from the club and that is what they get. Sure we have improved on where the club was 5 years ago. From such a low base, even very average improvement would have looked great.

Financially we have improved a lot. But RFC has a huge following and average gains in performance to a level where we were competitive, was alway going to see our bottom line improve dramatically. I would say we are where we should be in this area but still have a long way to go.

On field sadly is where I ( negative in view) can not see RFC is improving. This may be driven in many ways by the fact that we do not have large cash reserves or that a club that has had a history of debt may be reluctant to spend. Richmond needs to invest in its future. More top recruiting staff and coaches. Our recruiting in the last 2 years has been lamentable. There appears to be no consistency in our approach. Youth was the process that got us to finals in 2013 and then we strayed. Looks like another quick fix approach. Reject top up players have been recruited. I feel sick to my gut watching this club make the same mistakes over and over. Clubs that have won premierships have gone through rebuilds and the one thing they have done that we have not, is stayed consistent in their recruiting philosophies. Pick the best youth you can in the draft and via trading (also FA) pick only A-grade players. We should be past the point where we are topping up the list with rejects. I haven't seen list improvement in the past two trade periods and I will not comment on our picks in the drafts after our first picks for fear of using such bad language that I will be banned for years.

Other than improvement of youth selected 2 or 3 years ago due to more games experience, we are not improving at a rate that we can over take top clubs before we ourselves are passed by clubs using better recruiting principles. Our list is average/middle of the road and that's where we are positioned.

Sadly you who believe yourselves to be the positive posters have not shown us where the improvement will come from. You continually talk up average to below average players on our list as being top liners... I laugh when I read the attempts to pick a best 22. No more than about 8 - 10 of our squad would replace any of the 22 at hawthorn the swans or even port. Wake up we are miles from being a top side. Our rate of improvement has slowed dramatically to a point where unless we do something quite dramatic in the next trade period, you can start to look forward to the next rebuild.
What will be the excuses if we don't acquire a couple of top quality players in the next trade period? Losers except mediocrity under the guise of slow improvement. Winners go out and grab success. But my views are just negative.

Tremendous positive post.
Gee I wish I could be positive like you

 

[ReaperX]

Right, so it's a little ironic that I am getting called an immature 16 year old, considering I've worded my points in a manner that is very clear, polite, and constructive, which is everything that a child that age would probably NOT do, but that's cool we'll press on!

The supporters who are critically balanced, and can see the good that we're doing as a club, as well as the mistakes we've made... there is no issue with that whatsoever. Being critical about the club is a good thing if the club is in error, so long as it's constructive, and also balanced with what we're doing right as well.

However, the people who have already come to a pre-conceived "negative" conclusion about the direction of the club out of jaded frustration at past failures, before actually looking at what the club has been doing for the past 5 or so years as a whole... that's what frustrates the hell out of me, and what I am talking about. What's worse is, when they are presented with actual evidence of improvement, they just decide to look the other way and instead focus ONLY on the mistakes.

And don't get me started about the outright "barracking against" of certain players. To use Hampson as an example here, if given a choice between:

a) Hampson improving next season to the point of becoming a valuable contributor to our Best 22.
b) Hampson struggling again and being delisted post-2015

I'm absolutely convinced that there are some here who would openly barrack for option B, even though option A would improve their club and be a better outcome, simply because it would give them the justification to lay the boot into the club for drafting him.

I'm not sure how I can be any clearer or more concise about why this behavior is detrimental to our football club's culture. I've honestly said all that I can about it, and surely those with any modicum of common sense can see the point I am trying to make here.

For those that can't, whatever, I've done my best to try and explain.

 

[ReaperX]

I thought this thread was about " is Richmond really improving" and it has been turned into a debate about those who believe Progress to be satisfactory as being positive posters and those with the opposite view (of which I am one) being negative in their views.

I believe people who do not demand success are what hold an organisation back. They are malingerers passing time and not adding any real value. Sadly too many Richmond supporters accept mediocrity from the club and that is what they get. Sure we have improved on where the club was 5 years ago. From such a low base, even very average improvement would have looked great.

Financially we have improved a lot. But RFC has a huge following and average gains in performance to a level where we were competitive, was alway going to see our bottom line improve dramatically. I would say we are where we should be in this area but still have a long way to go.

On field sadly is where I ( negative in view) can not see RFC is improving. This may be driven in many ways by the fact that we do not have large cash reserves or that a club that has had a history of debt may be reluctant to spend. Richmond needs to invest in its future. More top recruiting staff and coaches. Our recruiting in the last 2 years has been lamentable. There appears to be no consistency in our approach. Youth was the process that got us to finals in 2013 and then we strayed. Looks like another quick fix approach. Reject top up players have been recruited. I feel sick to my gut watching this club make the same mistakes over and over. Clubs that have won premierships have gone through rebuilds and the one thing they have done that we have not, is stayed consistent in their recruiting philosophies. Pick the best youth you can in the draft and via trading (also FA) pick only A-grade players. We should be past the point where we are topping up the list with rejects. I haven't seen list improvement in the past two trade periods and I will not comment on our picks in the drafts after our first picks for fear of using such bad language that I will be banned for years.

Other than improvement of youth selected 2 or 3 years ago due to more games experience, we are not improving at a rate that we can over take top clubs before we ourselves are passed by clubs using better recruiting principles. Our list is average/middle of the road and that's where we are positioned.

Sadly you who believe yourselves to be the positive posters have not shown us where the improvement will come from. You continually talk up average to below average players on our list as being top liners... I laugh when I read the attempts to pick a best 22. No more than about 8 - 10 of our squad would replace any of the 22 at hawthorn the swans or even port. Wake up we are miles from being a top side. Our rate of improvement has slowed dramatically to a point where unless we do something quite dramatic in the next trade period, you can start to look forward to the next rebuild.
What will be the excuses if we don't acquire a couple of top quality players in the next trade period? Losers except mediocrity under the guise of slow improvement. Winners go out and grab success. But my views are just negative.

We do need to invest in our future, and start hitting more winners when it comes to later picks in the draft. 100% agree with you about that. It's an area of concern, but I am fully of the belief that we're doing everything we can to improve this. One such measure being the introduction of a standalone VFL team, to help keep the message consistent at all levels of competition.

The line between ultimate success and failure is very fine, and it's often many many years down the track before you can truly judge a draft.

Richmond hired Terry Wallace, and then took Brett Deledio, Richard Tambling, Adam Pattison, Dean Polo, and Danny Meyer in the Top 20 of the 2004 draft.

Hawthorn hired Alastair Clarkson, and then took Lance Franklin, Jarryd Roughhead, and Jordan Lewis in the Top 20 of the 2004 draft.

Both teams were in the same spot at that point, albeit Hawthorn had a much better off-field system in place. The point is, the club is still paying for the mistakes made back then, whilst Hawthorn is still largely reaping the benefits of those decisions. Which brings me back to the whole "long term plan" discussion.

Hawthorn put a plan in place back in 2004, that they wanted premierships down the track. They were ultimately planning for 2012-2015, but they got lucky in 2008 and struck gold. Still, along the way they have had their successes, and their failures. The thing they never gave up on was their vision. Back then, Richmond didn't have a vision, because we were simply trying to survive. 2004-2009 was a wasted black hole, that put us as far back as we ever were in the 90's.

Richmond's current vision started in 2010, when Gale and Dimma took the reigns. And I have no doubt that we were ultimately planning for sustained success between 2017-2020 when we set down that 3-0-75 plan, because that's how long these things take.

The fact that it's 2014 and we haven't won a premiership yet, or are a true contender at this stage, should not have us thinking that our club is doomed for another rebuild in the immediate future. We are still on track, and to get back to the heart of this thread, we ARE actually improving.

It's like putting a pie in the oven, and then after 5 minutes you check it and it's not ready. It doesn't mean that it's NEVER going to be ready, but it takes time for the pie to cook, and even though you might be getting whiffs of the pie's smell, and it's making you hungry, you just have got to be patient. Because if you pull it out and take a bite while it's still not cooked, it'll taste like shit! But when it's ready, it'll be a hearty dinner that you will enjoy immensely!!!