News Are We Really Improving?

[caroma]

Hawks were going to merge with Melbourne at one stage just like we almost folded
Port will make it 3 from 3 most likely next year with zero debt and a massive supporter base
Have they Improved ? Are they improving at a faster rate? Do they have better staff and resources? The answer to these some may be no ,but they are putting precautions in place and paying for the best to get the best achievable results. Off field they have improved greater than us. This is the key if you want your business to succeed , CEO wihich are happy with scraping in profits and targets are not administrators
Benny needs to be striving harder on filling the void with his staff with the one thing in mind
Being the best and continuing to be the best

Again you compare us to a team which has played a lot of finals footy over the past decade+. Shit they won a premiership 10 years ago and featured (barely) in another since then. As for making it 3 from 3, we'll most likely do the same. Zero Debt? check. Massive supporter base?? Ours is bigger. So they've improved, we've improved more by the looks of things. What are these precautions you speak of? can you prove we havent got these too? How has a team that spent 5 years in the wilderness improved greater than a team who has spent 32 years in the wilderness. Please explain.

By all means, if we finish 2015 outside the 8, you can go ahead and say we're still shit and this was a false dawn. But until then, all evidence points to yes we have improved.

 

[caroma]

and i went through your posting history last night, about 100 posts back, and couldnt find a single positive thing in there. Not even in the TAN.

 

[TigerImposter]

We do need to invest in our future, and start hitting more winners when it comes to later picks in the draft. 100% agree with you about that. It's an area of concern, but I am fully of the belief that we're doing everything we can to improve this. One such measure being the introduction of a standalone VFL team, to help keep the message consistent at all levels of competition.

The line between ultimate success and failure is very fine, and it's often many many years down the track before you can truly judge a draft.

Richmond hired Terry Wallace, and then took Brett Deledio, Richard Tambling, Adam Pattison, Dean Polo, and Danny Meyer in the Top 20 of the 2004 draft.

Hawthorn hired Alastair Clarkson, and then took Lance Franklin, Jarryd Roughhead, and Jordan Lewis in the Top 20 of the 2004 draft.

Both teams were in the same spot at that point, albeit Hawthorn had a much better off-field system in place. The point is, the club is still paying for the mistakes made back then, whilst Hawthorn is still largely reaping the benefits of those decisions. Which brings me back to the whole "long term plan" discussion.

Hawthorn put a plan in place back in 2004, that they wanted premierships down the track. They were ultimately planning for 2012-2015, but they got lucky in 2008 and struck gold. Still, along the way they have had their successes, and their failures. The thing they never gave up on was their vision. Back then, Richmond didn't have a vision, because we were simply trying to survive. 2004-2009 was a wasted black hole, that put us as far back as we ever were in the 90's.

Richmond's current vision started in 2010, when Gale and Dimma took the reigns. And I have no doubt that we were ultimately planning for sustained success between 2017-2020 when we set down that 3-0-75 plan, because that's how long these things take.

The fact that it's 2014 and we haven't won a premiership yet, or are a true contender at this stage, should not have us thinking that our club is doomed for another rebuild in the immediate future. We are still on track, and to get back to the heart of this thread, we ARE actually improving.

It's like putting a pie in the oven, and then after 5 minutes you check it and it's not ready. It doesn't mean that it's NEVER going to be ready, but it takes time for the pie to cook, and even though you might be getting whiffs of the pie's smell, and it's making you hungry, you just have got to be patient. Because if you pull it out and take a bite while it's still not cooked, it'll taste like shit! But when it's ready, it'll be a hearty dinner that you will enjoy immensely!!!

I like your positivity and ideas mate, but the things that let your arguments down is simply the typical lame rfc supporter syndrome
Bloody Excuses
This is the biggest negativity outside and Inside the walls of the club
My idea is to admit we have reeked for years and we will do everything within our powers to better than the rest
Kochie and SKH have got that attitude , but you listen to Benny Dan and DH speak its generally head facing down with excuses
Yes they've taken us from darkness , but we are no where out of danger yet
Port had no off field stability with a list of undeveloped kids ,but turned the club image and public perception within 12 months
No excuses from them just hard work and competent staff. That's what I call positivity not the crying dribble that comes out of the club so 66k members can go on and cry along with them
It will only take you so far and once the failures start to come they drop off anyway
Look at our attendances last year it cost us millions as the admin and footy dept were pumping out the we have NFI spin
We need to implement the No more excuses policy before we try to even consider being successful bc this malignant cancer is what continues to hold
up the club

 

[TigerImposter]

Again you compare us to a team which has played a lot of finals footy over the past decade+. Shit they won a premiership 10 years ago and featured (barely) in another since then. As for making it 3 from 3, we'll most likely do the same. Zero Debt? check. Massive supporter base?? Ours is bigger. So they've improved, we've improved more by the looks of things. What are these precautions you speak of? can you prove we havent got these too? How has a team that spent 5 years in the wilderness improved greater than a team who has spent 32 years in the wilderness. Please explain.

By all means, if we finish 2015 outside the 8, you can go ahead and say we're still shit and this was a false dawn. But until then, all evidence points to yes we have improved.

Did not say we have not improved. Any monkey could of improved us from where we were on the field just with the odd draft picks and two new teams
It's looking at our improvement rate ,but keep up with the excuses the club loves them

 

[caroma]

Did not say we have not improved. Any monkey could of improved us from where we were on the field just with the odd draft picks and two new teams
It's looking at our improvement rate ,but keep up with the excuses the club loves them

Then i dont understand the premise of the thread. Your title clearly states the question "ARE WE REALLY IMPROVING?"
I just answered that. In future if youre going to ask a question then you need to accept an answer, or, from the outset, announce that youve already made up your mind.

People have given very well thought out and detailed reasons why yes we have improved, and how in regard to the off field it has come at a pretty decent 'rate'. Now with 2 finals appearances we are starting to see the fruits on field. But you can't take any of these answers on board, and instead continue to argue that we havent improved at a rate that is satisfactory to you and seemingly, only you.

Now, what excuses are you referring to?

 

[TigerImposter]

Then i dont understand the premise of the thread. Your title clearly states the question "ARE WE REALLY IMPROVING?"
I just answered that. In future if youre going to ask a question then you need to accept an answer, or, from the outset, announce that youve already made up your mind.

People have given very well thought out and detailed reasons why yes we have improved, and how in regard to the off field it has come at a pretty decent 'rate'. Now with 2 finals appearances we are starting to see the fruits on field. But you can't take any of these answers on board, and instead continue to argue that we havent improved at a rate that is satisfactory to you and seemingly, only you.

Now, what excuses are you referring to?

rubbish
i asked for the tiger bf member opinion
you appear to demonstrate that you think there is a simple answer to this.
its not straight forward

 

[TigerImposter]

and i went through your posting history last night, about 100 posts back, and couldnt find a single positive thing in there. Not even in the TAN.

IT depends on your definition of positive

 

[Mr Magic]

Just read this article on King Alistair Clarkson's current holiday complimentary of the Hawthorn FC
I posted it in another thread , but it was so intriguing I thought I would start up a thread.

http://m.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl...ay-from-waverley/story-fni5f8ge-1227116915142

Apparently King Al Clarkson (KAC )has gone over to England to study the training facilities ,resources and coaching/management techniques used in the EPL . Not sure if This is a typo,but the Hawks are looking to spend $35 million to gain that extra edge on the rest on this training facility
King Al Clarkson wants to be more of an EPL club manager and be a delegator to at least 10-15 sub coaches
For us to compete with the top sides and to actually improve are our facilities and coaching team up to or better than the standards of our opponents?? it is really quite frightening how much Hawthorn and KAC really want to succeed. He wants them to be a mini ManU and SirAlex type or a modern day Man City.
We can improve as much as we like within ourselves as a whole, but unless our improvement rate as a whole is greater than our opponents we will just be making up numbers,
This to me is our real issue where improvement is needed if we are to improve within the competition as a whole
Discuss with care

To be fair some of those big EPL clubs are tracking nicely to go broke never to return again!

Club like Chelsea is great because you have a manager that plays to win. But a lot of its all about money

 

[TigerImposter]

To be fair some of those big EPL clubs are tracking nicely to go broke never to return again!

Its not the outcome .its the intent

 

[caroma]

And you're demonstrating that you won't accept any answer but your own.

You have Hawks as an example. We've already accomplished what they plan to do.

You brought up Port. We're equal if not ahead of them, both off field and if we had have won a final, on field as well, and came from further back to do it.

I think you mentioned North as well. We are streets ahead of them.

Other than failing to win a final, what exactly leads you to believe that we have not improved at a decent rate? If we take it as being the DH era, how is 5 years not a decent rate, considering how far back we came from???


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[Mr Magic]

Its not the outcome .its the intent

Just saying throwing money around is not a viable solution rather it should be about how its being used. Still Hawthorn have been effective with the govt support they get from Tasmanian taxpayers and other taxpayers subsidising Tassie pursuits

 

[Mr Magic]

We do need to invest in our future, and start hitting more winners when it comes to later picks in the draft. 100% agree with you about that. It's an area of concern, but I am fully of the belief that we're doing everything we can to improve this. One such measure being the introduction of a standalone VFL team, to help keep the message consistent at all levels of competition.

The line between ultimate success and failure is very fine, and it's often many many years down the track before you can truly judge a draft.

Richmond hired Terry Wallace, and then took Brett Deledio, Richard Tambling, Adam Pattison, Dean Polo, and Danny Meyer in the Top 20 of the 2004 draft.

Hawthorn hired Alastair Clarkson, and then took Lance Franklin, Jarryd Roughhead, and Jordan Lewis in the Top 20 of the 2004 draft.

Both teams were in the same spot at that point, albeit Hawthorn had a much better off-field system in place. The point is, the club is still paying for the mistakes made back then, whilst Hawthorn is still largely reaping the benefits of those decisions. Which brings me back to the whole "long term plan" discussion.

Hawthorn put a plan in place back in 2004, that they wanted premierships down the track. They were ultimately planning for 2012-2015, but they got lucky in 2008 and struck gold. Still, along the way they have had their successes, and their failures. The thing they never gave up on was their vision. Back then, Richmond didn't have a vision, because we were simply trying to survive. 2004-2009 was a wasted black hole, that put us as far back as we ever were in the 90's.

Richmond's current vision started in 2010, when Gale and Dimma took the reigns. And I have no doubt that we were ultimately planning for sustained success between 2017-2020 when we set down that 3-0-75 plan, because that's how long these things take.

The fact that it's 2014 and we haven't won a premiership yet, or are a true contender at this stage, should not have us thinking that our club is doomed for another rebuild in the immediate future. We are still on track, and to get back to the heart of this thread, we ARE actually improving.

It's like putting a pie in the oven, and then after 5 minutes you check it and it's not ready. It doesn't mean that it's NEVER going to be ready, but it takes time for the pie to cook, and even though you might be getting whiffs of the pie's smell, and it's making you hungry, you just have got to be patient. Because if you pull it out and take a bite while it's still not cooked, it'll taste like shit! But when it's ready, it'll be a hearty dinner that you will enjoy immensely!!!

To be honest Hawthorn were well ahead of us in 2004. We had nothing for the future and they had Hodge from 2001. I would argue their rebuild started in 2001 or earlier well before 2004 anyway!

 

[TigerImposter]

Just saying throwing money around is not a viable solution rather it should be about how its being used. Still Hawthorn have been effective with the govt support they get from Tasmanian taxpayers and other taxpayers subsidising Tassie pursuits

YES I misunderstood your first post .I can see where you're coming from now

 

[TigerImposter]

To be honest Hawthorn were well ahead of us in 2004. We had nothing for the future and they had Hodge from 2001. I would argue their rebuild started in 2001 or earlier well before 2004 anyway!

This is a a one man band theory.
Hodge was a bonus,but he was a kid with ability or raw potential,
still needed staff to develop him as well .His leadership skills just didn't fall from a tree .
Look at Lids probably more skillful than Hodgie(no offense),but his leadership meh meh meh.
A club still needs all the wheels moving in the same direction off and on field
one player doesn't get it done.
We had Richo all those years for what results???

 

[Mr Magic]

YES I misunderstood yadvantage post .I can see where you're coming from now

I understand Hawthorn are probably looking to get an intellectual property advantage from the EPL excursion rather than finding out how to utilise a bigger war chest. But I am not sure I am convinced, apart from generic angles like fitness with Burgess, a lot can be gained from the EPL which is driven by money. They probably looking to pick up list management and trade tips and strategies if anything!

 

[Mr Magic]

This is a a one man band theory.
Hodge was a bonus,but he was a kid with ability or raw potential,
still needed staff to develop him as well .His leadership skills just didn't fall from a tree .
Look at Lids probably more skillful than Hodgie(no offense),but his leadership meh meh meh.
A club still needs all the wheels moving in the same direction off and on field
one player doesn't get it done.
We had Richo all those years for what results???

My point was about building cycles of Hawthorn versus RFC not who had what stars. Richo was old by the time 2004 was around in terms of a rebuild for a premiership. Hodge was just starting. But the point was more about RFC may have built from 2004 but Hawthorn built from 2001. It also could be argued Hawthorn built for longer because some at RFC are obsessed with the short term and like to take short cuts!

 

[caroma]

Its not the outcome .its the intent

If this is your motto then why is this thread even here? Clearly, by your own admission it doesn't matter if we've improved (no matter the rate) because the intent was there.


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[TigerImposter]

If this is your motto then why is this thread even here? Clearly, by your own admission it doesn't matter if we've improved (no matter the rate) because the intent was there.


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The intent that the Hawks want to be big and powerful???This is the purpose of the thread on how to improve at a faster rate and why it was created.GET real champ.The mere fact that the thread has got to 7 pages obviously tells you there was validity need and a purpose for it.

 

[caroma]

The intent that the Hawks want to be big and powerful???This is the purpose of the thread on how to improve at a faster rate and why it was created.GET real champ.The mere fact that the thread has got to 7 pages obviously tells you there was validity need and a purpose for it.

As has been pointed out previously, We have ALREADY DONE what the Hawks are planning to do. The intent was there and the outcome is real. How the **** can you not see this?

We have built new facilities at ~$20mill and have just as many 'coaches' as every other bloody team. We're already BIG. When/if we start winning finals then we'll be just as POWERFUL as Hawks currently are.

I'm starting to think you're trolling now, maybe to get lots of pages in your thread?
Either way **** this I'm out.


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[The full package]

As has been pointed out previously, We have ALREADY DONE what the Hawks are planning to do. The intent was there and the outcome is real. How the **** can you not see this?

We have built new facilities at ~$20mill and have just as many 'coaches' as every other bloody team. We're already BIG. When/if we start winning finals then we'll be just as POWERFUL as Hawks currently are.

I'm starting to think you're trolling now, maybe to get lots of pages in your thread?
Either way **** this I'm out.


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Your wrong, we will be bigger than the dawks easily if we had back to backs.

 

[caroma]

Your wrong, we will be bigger than the dawks easily if we had back to backs.

I said finals but you are right about b2b GFs. Hell, we'd only need one.


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[TigerImposter]

As has been pointed out previously, We have ALREADY DONE what the Hawks are planning to do. The intent was there and the outcome is real. How the **** can you not see this?

We have built new facilities at ~$20mill and have just as many 'coaches' as every other bloody team. We're already BIG. When/if we start winning finals then we'll be just as POWERFUL as Hawks currently are.

I'm starting to think you're trolling now, maybe to get lots of pages in your thread?
Either way **** this I'm out.


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We have been under staffed in the footy department for years and we didnt replace lost assistants in coaching our drafting has been poor as shown in another thread.
Youre trolling in an attempt to derail the truth as its hit a raw nerve.if all you've stated is true then why have we struggled to beat a 9th placed finalist in one year and the humiliated in 10min the next.Are we really improving at a faster rate to be ahead of our competitors?
Are you sure about the statement you made below in bold or is it just hope spin and speculation?This is what i was asking in the OP,but where did you get your evidence to support your conclusion??

We're already BIG. When/if we start winning finals then we'll be just as POWERFUL as Hawks currently are.

 

[caroma]

I said I'm out, champ. It doesn't matter what I say you won't take it on board. Stop quoting me.


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[TigerImposter]

I said I'm out, champ. It doesn't matter what I say you won't take it on board. Stop quoting me.


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oh! what a pity

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

I hate the myth that every club is improving.

Essendon aren't improving
Geelong aren't improving
The Bulldogs certainly aren't improving
Carlton aren't improving
St Kilda?
Collingwood? They just had 2 of the top 4 at their B&F walk out on them.

Teams lose players and decline all the time. There are plenty of teams that aren't improving.