Jesus so he should have 7 flags! Love it.
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Are we ruthless enough?
- Thread starter Mad_Hatter
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2013, 2020 and 2025 we were beaten by the better team on the day. I can live with that.
Pure_Ownage
TheBrownDog
24 i honestly think we win if either Holmes doesn't get injured or we sub him quicker the 10 minutes cost the game. And that cost a flag as Sydney were an easy kill.
This year I think is a bit different.
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That is hard to disagree with.
But I would also point out that our midfield was terrible in 2024, and if we won the flag it would have been probably the worst premiership midfield that I can ever recall.
So is it really that surprising that we weren’t able to win? In retrospect it would have been an absolute coaching masterclass if we managed to get that team to a flag.
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Think you are under rating the players skill level.
Kobe Gryant
'07 - '09 - '11 - '22
It would have been even worse the next week too, with there almost certainly being no Holmes or Bruhn, and a banged up Dangerfield with a corked back.
As you say, a yet-to-peak Holmes, 22 year old Bruhn, Atkins, Bowes, and short spurts from Dangerfield would already be arguably the worst flag winning midfield ever.
You take Holmes and Bruhn out, and probably have Dangerfield parked at full forward most of the day, and it certainly is - and that's if we still somehow won after all that.
We probably do, because Sydney are just that headf**cked on Grand Final day for whatever reason, but it would have been the absolute epitome of 'stealing' a flag IMO.
dudusmaximus
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Scott's public posturing should not be confused with his real thinking. He was probably bumping up Parfitt's price ("Always be closing").
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Today I learned that any side in front in a prelim but doesn't win the flag has "pissed it away". Why stop at a prelim? Let's take it back to the semis.
With this fantastic new approach I can say Geelong has pissed away around 15 flags in the AFL era through a sheer lack of ruthlessness. Geez it looks so easy on paper. Where did it all go wrong?
With this fantastic new approach I can say Geelong has pissed away around 15 flags in the AFL era through a sheer lack of ruthlessness. Geez it looks so easy on paper. Where did it all go wrong?
Kobe Gryant
'07 - '09 - '11 - '22
Don't stop there!Today I learned that any side in front in a prelim but doesn't win the flag has "pissed it away". Why stop at a prelim? Let's take it back to the semis.
With this fantastic new approach I can say Geelong has pissed away around 15 flags in the AFL era through a sheer lack of ruthlessness. Geez it looks so easy on paper. Where did it all go wrong?
You've now got to compare those failures to how other clubs took advantage when the league was corrupt, the Vietnam war had barely concluded, and 'sports science' extended to a dart at halftime and maybe a line of coke if you had a decent day job.
To be serious for a second though, there probably have been some missed opportunities. I'd have '08 (obviously), the '13 QF, and '16 prelim no show right at the forefront.
If you wanted to get really granular, Thompson's handling of the entire 2010 season and the Ablett situation is probably in there too, but I'd say in that universe, we don't win 2011.
In saying that though, there's other clubs who count our wins as their missed opportunities too.
We can see it however we wish, but the '07 prelim, and '09 and '11 GFs still keep Saints and Pies fans up at night, and while we were clearly the best team in '22 by the end of the year, it was supposed to be the crowning of the Melbourne dynasty, and it looked that way until May decided to be a dickhead at a restaurant mid year.
Point being, it mostly balances out IMO. I personally think we're one flag short of where we should be, and I think that's fair. It's what could have made 2025 so special, and fitting with it being at the quarter time siren of the century.
Anyone getting to 6,7, or 8 though is just revising history, and disregarding the teams of this era for mine.
We've been good, we haven't been that good. Especiall in an 18 team comp with all the idiosyncrasies and unjust advantages that are unique to this (often) bush league competition of ours.
Well summed up. It's not that I don't believe we've had missed opportunities. In isolation you could look at most matches in Goggin's post and say "what if?". We all have at times.
However the aggressively emphatic conclusion that we've "pissed away" half a dozen recent flags - all from a "lack of ruthlessness (bringing it back to the thread title) - it's a bit much. You don't have a God given right to close out a final against a fantastic team if you have a 2-4 goal lead. And guess what? If you don't turn up on the day, you weren't good enough. This is the nature of a knockout finals competition, which is the only way to be the best.
If you did want to go with the finals choker narrative, we would surely have many more 1st placed H&A finishes than flags in the Scott era - right? Like Mark Williams' Power chokers until the 2004 redemption flag. It's curious that this isn't the case for Geelong then. We are often top 4, but rarely clearly the best team of the season without taking home the chocolates.
2013 - Yes we lead in the prelim but Hawthorn was clearly the best team of the year and era.
2016 - propped up by peak Dangerwood all year. Not many weapons forward. Slow defence. H&A specialist with our veterans. Against manic finals pressure (Swans), not up to it. Even year but Bulldogs were finals specialists so they earned their flag.
2019 - hot start to the year (10-1?), then 5-5 stuttering lead in to finals. Was a Geelong without Duncan, Hawkins and Rohan better than the peak of that Richmond side? No.
2020 - finished 4th, QF losers, Richmond had the know how when it mattered to complete their dynasty. We weren't the best side that season.
2024 - cobbled together midfield, average percentage, slipped into top 4 late in the season and thrashed Kenny's chokers in the QF. Holmes was our PF MVP and we fell apart when he copped his knock. A missed opportunity still. It's hard to seriously say we were the best or most talented team that year.
2025 - like 2020, Brisbane had the know how when it mattered. We used our trump card in the QF and they countered. Our old stars were missing, hobbled or ran out of steam. Our younger ones were overawed by the occasion at times. Brisbane's best football all year was the top level. They just delivered it here and there. When knockout finals arrived, they didn't blink. Much like Richmond during their finals run. Hence they were deservedly the best team.
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Kobe Gryant
'07 - '09 - '11 - '22
It'll never change.
During the year, the team is mediocre at best. Player X, Y, & Z are spuds, cooked, or being gifted games, and we're approaching a rebuild.
Fast forward two years, and that year we were originally talking about is now a missed golden opportunity. Rinse and repeat over and over.
2024 is the epitome IMO. Going into QF week, about 90% on here (myself included) had us either losing in straight sets, or losing, winning a semi, and getting smashed in a prelim. That felt like a fair encapsulation of the inconsistent and creaky side we had seen all year to that point.
It was only after we belted Kenny's aeroplanes that suddenly the narrative shifted, and if history has taught us anything, beating that team is the ultimate false economy.
Holmes does a hamstring, we all know the rest - and who knows what could have happened if he was okay?
In the end though, the end result of the season was closer to what everyone thought it was going to be in the bye week before the aberration in Adelaide.
Although we got our hopes up which does mess with the emotions a bit, the end result is just a roundabout version of what it always looked like it was going to be.
100%.
2025 we were a better side throughout the year than 2024 (mostly). We still had the little midseason rut but this time had enough legs in midfield to keep us in pretty good shape. Yet most of us expected a loss against Brisbane in the QF - 50/50 at best - a side now full of premiership winners with young stars also improving. They delivered a handful of shockers throughout the season but their top 6-8 games against the finals sides they looked every bit as imperious as the 2001-2003 Lions.
But then we go and win. So of course the narrative is that it's our flag to lose, and the bookies even agree. How could the reigning premiers reverse a result against a team bursting with players about to play their first GF (compared to Brisbane)? Shock, horror - they lifted back to that top level and we couldn't sustain ours. Best team of the era powers away late. Sounds familiar doesn't it - Richmond, Hawthorn did the same in previous eras.
I wonder if this isn't Geelong - clear best team in the comp - pissing away flags. Maybe they're ultimately getting beaten by the better team, or not peaking in health or form, in the critical match. Given that is the ultimate decider of AFL flag winners, it's hard to argue which premiership "should" have been ours.
Pure_Ownage
TheBrownDog
This is true but it was obvious a month out from the 2024 finals that Sydney had the wobbles and they are soft in GFs so weak midfield or not we would have smoked them. It's why I was so angry when we just lost the prelim. Had we not wasted half the 3rd deciding whether to sub holmes i remain convinced we would have won by a kick. I didnt listen to any football media all GF week and I took the kids out on GF day to avoid watching it because I figured we had gifted brisbane the flag (which we had).
This year I wasn't as angry (despite being at the game) because the reality is we needed everything to go right to beat brisbane twice and once stewart was gone and Cameron got injured it was fighting a rising tide we were never going to win in that second half.
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This is what success does.
Anytime you get close, it's a, 'should have' argument.
Remember when the club broke its drought in 2007, and it was the greatest relief and lifting of a burden?
You need to get back to that, and appreciate how hard premierships are to win.
Don't end up where my Essendon friends were - where they believed Essendon rightfully won a flag every so often and they were the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Geelong is in a tough competition designed to limit time at the top of the tree. The club has managed itself to stay in contention routinely for the past 20 seasons.
I am not Chris Scott's biggest fan, but perhaps he deserves credit just for contending year-on-year. I can tell you that plenty of other clubs have become envious of Geelong's ability to remain competitive.
Geelong could have won the premiership in 2025, but were ultimately beaten by the better team on the day. You only get one shot. At half time, Brisbane's midfielders were on top yet scores were even. A lesser team would have already been down 5 goals.
Ultimately, it wasn't to be.
There's a gap between making a GF and making a preliminary final. There's a gap between the premier, and runner-up.
Fagan was able to execute his plan better. He should be given credit for his coaching at the same time.
One day, the Cats will slip and no longer be regular contenders. You'll miss these days - even the ones where the flag wasn't won.
Anytime you get close, it's a, 'should have' argument.
Remember when the club broke its drought in 2007, and it was the greatest relief and lifting of a burden?
You need to get back to that, and appreciate how hard premierships are to win.
Don't end up where my Essendon friends were - where they believed Essendon rightfully won a flag every so often and they were the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Geelong is in a tough competition designed to limit time at the top of the tree. The club has managed itself to stay in contention routinely for the past 20 seasons.
I am not Chris Scott's biggest fan, but perhaps he deserves credit just for contending year-on-year. I can tell you that plenty of other clubs have become envious of Geelong's ability to remain competitive.
Geelong could have won the premiership in 2025, but were ultimately beaten by the better team on the day. You only get one shot. At half time, Brisbane's midfielders were on top yet scores were even. A lesser team would have already been down 5 goals.
Ultimately, it wasn't to be.
There's a gap between making a GF and making a preliminary final. There's a gap between the premier, and runner-up.
Fagan was able to execute his plan better. He should be given credit for his coaching at the same time.
One day, the Cats will slip and no longer be regular contenders. You'll miss these days - even the ones where the flag wasn't won.
I don't. Even in 2019, which was IMO our best team outside of 2022, we were still carrying some honest-but-very-limited foot soldiers in Esava, Parfitt, Narkle, Bews, Atkins, Dalhaus etc. Henderson and Harry were at the very end and were no longer what they once were, too.
Says who - and based on what ?
They won 19 games and we won 18 with identical percentages ?
We flogged Frem in the 2nd half of the season and beat Haw easily in the 2nd half of the year , that win over Haw was Sat night the Cats dominated - it was emphatic , 10 pts was the margin because they had a late rally , but Geel were never ever going to lose that game
20 pts up at 3qtr time in a PF , I think that would be one of the biggest ever leads in a PF at 3 qtr time - where the team leading subsequently loses
I think you are also forgetting those 2 diabolical losses in successive years to a very ordinary Pt Ade team over in SA - where Geel were gone 10 minutes into the 1st qtr - they were playing then that rubbish failed short passing game that Scott liked
My take on what has happened because no one has been told - end of the 21 season Geel thrashed by 80 pts in the PF by Melb - 3 new assistant coaches join the club - Kelly and 2 others , they would have been terrified of Scott and wouldnt have told him to change the game plan Thus i think Steve Hocking ( CEO ) in a forthright manner ( just like when he put one flush on Mathews chin for king hitting Bruns ) has told Scott , you can throw that failed rubbish short passing chipping game to the Shiithouse , and Geel from now on are playing proper Geel football , and the Cats have
And the best example of that - is the masterclass 84 pt demolition of Pt Ade in SA in 24 year in that final where the Cats played champagne football , contrast that to the 2 diabolical losses to that very same ordinary Pt Ade team , where they were playing that short passing rubbish football
I said 5 possible Geel flags could have slipped through the net - im not suggesting for one second that Geel should have won all 5 - but given the opportunities they have had , plus where they have been positioned in certain finals then i think the Cats are 2 flags short , they should have 6 not 4
And i reckon if a great coach like Billy Goggin ( thats what he has been called by a former champion player ) had the cattle Scott has had and ace recruiting , like Dangerfield is a once in a 50 year player plus Jeremy Cameron another superstar , then i think Goggin would have got those extra 2 flags , and the Cats for an outstanding 20 year period would have been fully rewarded .
Hawthorn were strong favourites heading into 2012 grand final day and continued that form in 2013 while looking for redemption. Much like Geelong in 2009. They had a younger, fitter list for the business end of the season. We had Hawkins who could barely move because of his broken back. Chappy got suspended and Enright was missing, replaced by a cooked Josh Hunt who had a shocker. It was at Hawthorn's home ground. We didn't have many forward weapons as SJ was required in midfield along with the previous issues I highlighted above. Hawthorn had forward weapons everywhere. We established a lead, helped by Hawthorn missing a lot of shots on goal, but ultimately ran out of steam. This happens to inferior sides in finals quite a lot.
I think as can fans a lot of us have become spoilt and lost sight of what matters at times.
You can just enjoy watching your team win games of footy and be a good team. You don’t have to whinge and sook and only be satisfied if your team is the best side and wins a flag. Mathematically you are doomed to only be happy once every 18 years then.
Too many of ours fans whine and sook if we fall short of a flag.
Enjoy us winning most weeks and being a good side, and take the bonus if we win a flag.
More gratitude is needed around here.
If you are the type of person who is pessimistic and only winning a flag will be enough for your viewing enjoyment and outlook, then maybe following individual sports such as tennis or formula 1 is more your go such as a Michael Hamilton
Your maths only applies to mediocre sides.
Your logic is valid for the club as a whole. If doesnt apply to individuals or components of the team. But yes we should celebrate the good if we also criticise the negative in their relevant proportions.
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Define relative proportions?
I agree I don’t enjoy seeing our team miss the top 8 or perform poorly, nobody enjoys that.
But making the finals or even better yet, top four and a prelim? Or lucky enough a gf?? I would say there lies a lot to celebrate and enjoy amongst a season like that then there is to criticize.
A lot more has to go right and a lot more wins and good games than bad ones to reach those points.
You have to be a good side, and good sides bring a lot we can all enjoy.
We were never good enough to win a flag in the ablett era, but we were a good team that has provided some incredible memories and ablett crazy magic that will live in the memories of plenty of geelong fans until they die. Do you think most geelong fans don’t get nostalgic about recalling couch to ablett over the radio?? Despite winning no premiership
I definitely think you can appreciate what I am trying to get at here seeds
The aim is to wim premierships, but not all enjoyment relies on winning one
If the AFL was The EPL.
GFC would have had very nice secondary silverware to prove our season was a success ( if not the ultimate success).
From 2004 when we ran Brissie close in the prelim!
I celebrate making the 8. I love making the GF. Winning the premiership is a mind blower.
AND I am getting used to it.
After 44years of Nada.
Go Cats.
GFC would have had very nice secondary silverware to prove our season was a success ( if not the ultimate success).
From 2004 when we ran Brissie close in the prelim!
I celebrate making the 8. I love making the GF. Winning the premiership is a mind blower.
AND I am getting used to it.
After 44years of Nada.
Go Cats.
I agree but in saying that there are role players then there are genuine role players…
The difference being one has the ability to meaningfully contribute to a gameplan that can win flags, while the other is just at times taking up dead space.
Richmond’s role players during their flags for example were nippy quick smalls who could apply massive pressure, where as ours were the delisted likes of Murdoch and James parsons type players who were limited to contribute to a flag style plan and were just dead weight
Yeah…Definitely at the pointy end where it counts.
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Geelong, coached by your revered Billy Goggin, finished top of the ladder in 1980 then was knocked out in straight sets. Geelong lost the prelim to Collingwood who finished 5th and then lost the gf by a record margin. Then Geelong went 1 win and 2 losses in the 1981 finals series. Then tumbled down the ladder in 1982 and won 7 games to miss the finals by 7 games.
Goggin then was sacked and went on to coach Footscray for 23 wins in 3 seasons.
Career finals coaching record 1 win and 4 losses. Career coaching record in prelim finals was 0 wins 2 losses.
Just sayin