Are we tough enough? [moved posts]

[citizen-erased]

Fully agree - our list is far more talented, has less structural issues (more balance and depth in key posts) but we are below them. Some say it's the players fault as the effort isn't there. I don't disagree but ultimately it is the coaches responsibility to motivate the players and get the best out of them. Currently on season to date Worsfold is not achieving that.

Hard to say. Woosha appears quite zen-like for the most part
But for me, it's Heppell. I don't see the side of him that would fire the team up after a lacklustre quarter. And that's his job.
Get them motivated onfield from play to play. Do something to inspire.
Lloyd was ruthless with his attack on the ball and the man.
For me, Heppell is all velvet and no sledgehammer.

 

[Lore]

Hard to say. Woosha appears quite zen-like for the most part
But for me, it's Heppell. I don't see the side of him that would fire the team up after a lacklustre quarter. And that's his job.
Get them motivated onfield from play to play. Do something to inspire.
Lloyd was ruthless with his attack on the ball and the man.
For me, Heppell is all velvet and no sledgehammer.

Do we have anyone who is like that though? I don't think Jobe's leadership had a sledgehammer aspect either. I think the group collectively need to fire each other up, get the adrenalin going. I think there was something about playing particular music to help fire up in the rooms before the game last year... they also played a bit of something after each goal but I don't remember what it was and they're not doing that this year.

 

[citizen-erased]

Do we have anyone who is like that though? I don't think Jobe's leadership had a sledgehammer aspect either. I think the group collectively need to fire each other up, get the adrenalin going. I think there was something about playing particular music to help fire up in the rooms before the game last year... they also played a bit of something after each goal but I don't remember what it was and they're not doing that this year.

You are right. We don't have that sort of player on the list. Ambrose is about it. Hooker too. But it's more their tackling ferocity than anything
Jamar highlighted it last year. 1st time in a long time I saw a player in red and black intimidate the opposition
Old days we had MJ, Solomon, Barnard, McPhee, etc all up for a wrestle.
Three most successful teams of this decade all had a tough competitive streak to them that started with their leaders and the kids followed their example.

 

[Lore]

You are right. We don't have that sort of player on the list. Ambrose is about it. Hooker too. But it's more their tackling ferocity than anything
Jamar highlighted it last year. 1st time in a long time I saw a player in red and black intimidate the opposition
Old days we had MJ, Solomon, Barnard, McPhee, etc all up for a wrestle.
Three most successful teams of this decade all had a tough competitive streak to them that started with their leaders and the kids followed their example.

Joe's been done for wrestling a couple of weeks ago, Zaka fires up when tagged, and Walla has got to be one of the hardest tacklers in the place when he's on. Baguley is always in there to give a bit back, and I've seen plenty of them get physical and stick up for each other when someone gets a bit lippy, does something unsportsmanlike or plays too close of a tag. Those traits don't seem to come through consistently though, they're all in response to something else happening. It's sort of interesting that GWS and Sydney particularly made a point of trying to rough us up a bit before the game even started though. Not sure if they're trying to fire us up (seems silly) or push us into our shells?

 

[the PILL]

Get Hodgey as an assistant?

 

[efcboy]

Daniher wills himself to contests and competes hard - so do Hurley and Hooker. Problem is Bellchambers has zero presence in pivotal moments to date and our midfielders don't either and that's where the games are being lost. In the past in successful teams we had guys like Hird, Long, T.Watson, Baker and so on that lifted in the key moments to get wins on the board. We don't have a midfielder like this hence the need for a D.Martin, hope Laverde or Francis can become this or recruit an emerging talent such as Hopper who could be this player.

 

[citizen-erased]

Joe's been done for wrestling a couple of weeks ago, Zaka fires up when tagged, and Walla has got to be one of the hardest tacklers in the place when he's on. Baguley is always in there to give a bit back, and I've seen plenty of them get physical and stick up for each other when someone gets a bit lippy, does something unsportsmanlike or plays too close of a tag. Those traits don't seem to come through consistently though, they're all in response to something else happening. It's sort of interesting that GWS and Sydney particularly made a point of trying to rough us up a bit before the game even started though. Not sure if they're trying to fire us up (seems silly) or push us into our shells?

Latter I reckon. Esp when we're on a run.
We are very easily pressured into submission
Blues, dees, giants, swans, lions. All beat us by applying physical pressure

 

[Lore]

I can't find a better source at the moment, but there's also this:

 

[citizen-erased]

I can't find a better source at the moment, but there's also this:

Not wrong.
Would love him at the club teaching that mentality to our kids

 

[Jesse Custer]

Lloydy had nailed it.

 

[Lore]

I think this is interesting in the context of the Tribunal hearings in the last couple of weeks. You see stuff like that and you want no part of it.

And then there's Selwood being concussed and then jogging away from the trainers and refusing to be supported off the ground. He then took no further part in the game and missed the following week. I see that and I think stop putting on an act, it's silly. You're not indestructible.

But then there's this other problem where we seem to play soulless footy some weeks, go into auto-pilot. Last week quite a few times our players were basically shepherding for their players, running in beehive formation towards the opposition goal. No tackling, no shepherding, no real pressure on the ball carrier... you know they make contact other times but in that instance it's like they were scared to try.

I know Zaka gets talked about as being a bit 'soft in the contest', trying to protect himself instead of getting his head over the ball or whatever. It seems to be more widespread, it's inconsistent across most of the playing group.

Whose responsibility is it to fix this kind of thing though? Coaches, leadership group? Players themselves?

 

[eDPS]

At the moment Heppell has our most contested possessions this year and I will agree with Lloydy that we haven't been tough enough. Defenders have shown a willingness to put their body on the line in recent weeks namely Hurley, Gleeson and Baguley. We really haven't seen any of Goddard, Heppell, Watson, Zaharakis or even some of our forwards fully commit to a contest in recent weeks. Zac Merrett I thought shirked a few contests in the last quarter and for someone who sets himself high standards hopefully comes out this week and puts his body on the line. If your getting tagged you need to at least commit to the contests which is a reason why JJ is having so much trouble.

There are plenty of young guys like Mutch and Clarke who are more than willing to put their body on the line despite their size and talents compared to our stars but this week will be the last straw, no matter who you are if you don't put in the hard yards you get dropped and if your a young player in the VFL and you show those qualities then you get rewarded.

 

[Jade]

Do we have anyone who is like that though?

 

[Lore]

Hurley for PM!

 

[Highly Evolved]

Good thread. I was actually thinking about this after the Brisbane loss.

I think I miss Beej as Captain. Not saying that Heppell is a bad Captain, but I just think, despite his flaws, Beej may be quite a good motivator.

As for aggression: Hurley, Joey, Baggers, Walla, Rambrose are intimidating aggressors. I think others, such as Heppell or Jobe, intimidate with their finesse (or perceived finesse) with the ball.

 

[JayJ20]

It really begs the question. Is our side too reliant on Merrett's kicking and decision making? I've provided an example and reasoning below.

As for toughness, Hurley and Baguley are the two players that really lift when it comes down to it. They both were really good against Sydney when it mattered. Daniher has also dragged us over the line a few times, particularly against Geelong and Collingwood, but I just wish he stopped flapping his arms to the umpires. Walla and Fantasia also get us going with crucial runs and goals when it matters.

Unfortunately, none of those players are in our midfield. TBC isn't imposing enough when it matters. Watson, Heppell, Goddard, Myers and Zaharakis are more or less pedestrian when it comes down to it. It is an indictment on the senior players when we lose the plot in the only game that Merrett was well held for the year. It really frustrated me a few times seeing Goddard looking around for Merrett to dish it off to him so that Merrett can kick it, even though Merrett was tight against the boundary line and surrounded by Lions players. He is supposed to take it on himself instead of searching for Merrett, who was being tagged. I feel like our senior players expect the younger ones with more motivation to drag us over the line when it supposed to be the other way around.

Like Lloyd said, we have the list to be sitting 9-5 at the moment, but we don't have midfielders that carry us over the line when things aren't going our way. If Heppell and Goddard continued to play the way they did throughout the game in the last, we win. Instead, they are barely sighted.

Just have a look at Kennedy against us last week. The game was practically gone for Sydney, but he stood up, imposed himself on the game and lifted his side. It felt like we were playing just Kennedy and he was winning. He did more for Sydney in the last than Watson, Heppell, Goddard, Zaharakis and TBC did for us combined in the last quarter on Sunday. Dangerfield and Selwood continuously do that. They don't allow for their side to lose games like this one. We'll see how they respond not only this week, but for the rest of the year. Some people are playing for their careers

 

[BigJoeD_]

Daniher wills himself to contests and competes hard - so do Hurley and Hooker. Problem is Bellchambers has zero presence in pivotal moments to date and our midfielders don't either and that's where the games are being lost. In the past in successful teams we had guys like Hird, Long, T.Watson, Baker and so on that lifted in the key moments to get wins on the board. We don't have a midfielder like this hence the need for a D.Martin, hope Laverde or Francis can become this or recruit an emerging talent such as Hopper who could be this player.

I'd disagree re Bellchambers, the Brisbane game excluded. I think he's had a presence since returning - the GWS and Mumford matchup in particular stands out.

I'll probably get crucified for this, but I reckon we're a better team with Howlett in the side setting the tone around the contest - our record when he is in probably reflects this.

Obviously our midfield is an issue, particularly our accountability - I think in our current position we need one of Howlett, Myers or even Bird as a regular fixture, at least for the time being

 

[citizen-erased]

I'd disagree re Bellchambers, the Brisbane game excluded. I think he's had a presence since returning - the GWS and Mumford matchup in particular stands out.

I'll probably get crucified for this, but I reckon we're a better team with Howlett in the side setting the tone around the contest - our record when he is in probably reflects this.

Obviously our midfield is an issue, particularly our accountability - I think in our current position we need one of Howlett, Myers or even Bird as a regular fixture, at least for the time being

agree to an extent, but to bring in Howlett and Myers would be to drop Colyer & Jobe imo.
I'd like to see Begley in for Green at some point too, as i like his attack on the man with the ball.

 

[BigJoeD_]

agree to an extent, but to bring in Howlett and Myers would be to drop Colyer & Jobe imo.
I'd like to see Begley in for Green at some point too, as i like his attack on the man with the ball.

I don't think we can play both, but one of them needs to play - we don't have enough presence around the ball. People scream when Myers or Howlett are in the side because they just look at their SuperCoach scores rather than understand the intangibles that they bring.

The idea of 'toughness' generally is overrated - our defenders and forwards compete just fine, I don't recall either group shirking any issue.

It's the midfield, as it has been for as long as I can remember. In the past we've had Hocking performing the intangibles/grunt work, but he's finished. It's why similar players like Myers/Howlett need to play IMO.

Watson, Heppell and Merrett need some assistance with the heavy lifting - the blocking, tackling, enforcing etc. They're ball players, but a midfield needs more than that.

I like the look of Begley, I think he'll get a chance between now and the end of the season

 

[Mootsy]

It's the midfield that lacks cohesion and it's obvious, you need confident natural footballers out there...

 

[hurlygurdy]

Not sure about toughness but i posted this elsewhere on a related vein of thought...
- Didn't see the game but when i saw report it made me wonder if there is a fundamental aspect to the game that we are missing towards the end? That is, do we still play to enjoy our football at that point or do we start to play fearful indecisive football? It's part of that idea of soaking up the pressure. Good teams thrive on the opposition lifting, they both want and enjoy the contest. It is slightly harder to have that attitude at the death, but it seems to me it might demonstrate some immaturity in our current side? -
I'd almost say that's what toughness really is. It's the capacity to really enjoy the challenge rather than become fearful of losing. Most of our players tick all the boxes about putting their bodies on the line so i don't think that is the problem.

 

[ScrappyCoCo]

Can you teach players to become really "tough"...or are you born that way?..I think you can improve but the real hard nuts in AFL are genetically gifted in this area and if you have not got it you probably never will. We need more players with mongrel.

 

[eDPS]

Can you teach players to become really "tough"...or are you born that way?..I think you can improve but the real hard nuts in AFL are genetically gifted in this area and if you have not got it you probably never will. We need more players with mongrel.

Up until under 18s I would never put my body on the line or go near a hard ball but as soon as I got confident in my body and learnt off seniors players I started to become a lot harder at the ball. Confidence plays a big part

 

[Bombermania]

Are we tough enough?

I don't think its a lack of toughness that is the problem, what we seem to lack is someone that when the chips are down will take the game on by bursting open a pack.

Only Adelaide has blown the side away, this tells me that the real issue isn't toughness but is hunger, we don't seem to want to smash the opposition, wheres the 2000 side took delight in hurting the opposition.

 

[Macca18]

Of course we're not tough enough. Too many 'soft' types on our list. Don't like using that word but I think it is warranted at the moment.

We hate losing players to suspension... but our MRP/Tribunal record this year (or lack of one) speaks volumes.