Society/Culture Are we turning a blind eye to indigenous problems?

[Bradesmaen]

You know you guys really are very ungrateful with regards to the contribution I am making too this board. I inject more reason and common-sense than any other poster. I think I am going to start asking for some payments from regular posters who benefit from my knowledge.

What you inject is humour.

 

[Bradesmaen]

You think a big business try's to look like they are socially responsible out of the kindness of their hearts rather than for money ? ahahhahahahahahahhah

I cant stop laughing but non the less than if they are such big hearted people surely they will not treat Aboriginals unfairly ?

Why would the government try and keep it a secret that they are encouraging business to employ more Aboriginals ? this is something they would want everyone to know about and have all over the 6pm news.

Yes, that is exactly what I said. Congrats for reading more into something once again.

 

[kickazz]

It's a shame because OP started a thread with an excellent premise. In a forum that is probably left leaning if I can use such a simplistic notion, there is a real opportunity to educate some people who do "turn a blind eye" as stated in the title.

And then he goes and turns into another stupidity/humour thread.

 

[ShanDog]

You know I went a school that today would cost over $25,000 a year ?

That does it. I'm sending my kids to public school.

 

[kickazz]

You know I went a school that today would cost over $25,000 a year ?

Just to clarify, was it $25k equivalent per calendar year, or was that the cumulative total it cost for constantly having to repeat year 7 before your parents finally gave up?

 

[Malifice]

How many times does it need to be said that science doesn't work off consensus?

What? Yes it does. It ties directly into a core tenet of science which is falsifiability.

Do you know who Karl Popper is?

 

[Malifice]

You know I went a school that today would cost over $25,000 a year ?

You should ask for your money back.

 

[TimmeT]

What? Yes it does. It ties directly into a core tenet of science which is falsifiability.

Do you know who Karl Popper is?

Do you know who Galileo was?

 

[Malifice]

Do you know who Galileo was?

Saying 'Scientific consensus can be wrong (or falsified and replaced with a new theory)', is not the same thing as saying 'Science does not use consensus.'

Do you see the difference?

Heck Newton had consensus with Relativity until it started falling apart and a young Einstein stepped in to right the ship with Special Relativity.

And its not just science that agrees that race/ ethnicity is a social construct. It's self evidently true. Pick any 'race' you want, and I bet you are selecting that race due to things like 'shared cultural values' or 'geographical proximity' in addition to entirely arbitrary and non uniform biological traits such as skin color or hair color or eye color.

Ethnic groups are socially constructed. 'Race' is not a taxonomic category in biology. I agree that often when we socially construct a 'race' or an 'ethnic group' as its own distinct group, we tend to arbitrarily assign physcial traits (usually involving appearance, such as skin color) to that 'race' or 'ethnic grouping'.

Again, these are inconsistently applied, arbitrary traits or critereon, that vary from 'race' to race' and ethnic group to ethnic group.

It would be convenient if we could group everyone in the world into 4 or 5 'races' like we used to in the past, but that just isnt the way things are. The Human Geonome project and DNA sequencing has clearly shown that to be utter tosh.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Yes of course. That's why I'd hire based on skills and experience, etc. Things which were identical in the aforementioned experiment.

People with identical skills and experience were selected or not based on their name. Why do you think that was? Because those hiring managers somehow knew it was part of an experiment conducted by a biased researcher, and they wanted to help them prove their hypothesis?

Okaaaaaaaay.......

Don't you understand that so called experiment was done by a person who had long made up their mind with regards to racism in employment , its worthless not even worthy of being used as toilet paper. Its all left wing propaganda.

We know Asians earn more in the US than white people , if people were biased towards people who had their skin colour than this would not be possible.

Like I keep saying businesses exist to make the most money possible, they need the best staff and do not care what colour their skin is.

Notice how ethnic groups who are hard working like Asians and Jewish people always seem to do well ? Its all down to work ethic and some ethnic groups are harder working than others . I Mean no group of people on the face of the earth has been more persecuted than the Jews yet they are thriving.

 

[kickazz]

Don't you understand that so called experiment was done by a person who had long made up their mind with regards to racism in employment , its worthless not even worthy of being used as toilet paper. Its all left wing propaganda.

I understand the concept of researcher bias and the observer expectancy effect. Which aspect of the experiment do you think was susceptible to it? How could the researcher have influenced the participants' responses?

 

[Frank Bunn]

I know you are not trying to be malicious, but there is no such thing.

Under Australian law and Aboriginal custom there is no such thing as a 'half' anything. If my mother is aboriginal and my father is Italian I am aboriginal and Italian.

Not half of each.

Well, that's how the guy described himself. It's a shame there wasn't a lawyer on the bus to put him straight.

But this a complete sidetrack to the point I was making. It's patronising to assume that the circumstances dictate outcomes. Plenty of people come from shitty backgrounds and make good decisions to create a good life for themselves and their families.

 

[Malifice]

Notice how ethnic groups who are hard working like Asians and Jewish people always seem to do well ? Its all down to work ethic and some ethnic groups are harder working than others . I Mean no group of people on the face of the earth has been more persecuted than the Jews yet they are thriving.

For Gods sake. Cut this bullshit stereotyping out. Its borderline racist.

Also, not sure what your '25 grand per year school' was teaching you, but full stops come at the end of sentences, with no space in between.

Like this.

Not like this .

Grammar Nazi lives.

 

[Frank Bunn]

Saying 'Scientific consensus can be wrong (or falsified and replaced with a new theory)', is not the same thing as saying 'Science does not use consensus.'

Do you see the difference?

Heck Newton had consensus with Relativity until it started falling apart and a young Einstein stepped in to right the ship with Special Relativity.

And its not just science that agrees that race/ ethnicity is a social construct. It's self evidently true. Pick any 'race' you want, and I bet you are selecting that race due to things like 'shared cultural values' or 'geographical proximity' in addition to entirely arbitrary and non uniform biological traits such as skin color or hair color or eye color.

Ethnic groups are socially constructed. 'Race' is not a taxonomic category in biology. I agree that often when we socially construct a 'race' or an 'ethnic group' as its own distinct group, we tend to arbitrarily assign physcial traits (usually involving appearance, such as skin color) to that 'race' or 'ethnic grouping'.

Again, these are inconsistently applied, arbitrary traits or critereon, that vary from 'race' to race' and ethnic group to ethnic group.

It would be convenient if we could group everyone in the world into 4 or 5 'races' like we used to in the past, but that just isnt the way things are. The Human Geonome project and DNA sequencing has clearly shown that to be utter tosh.

Can we try to keep this on track and not go off on one your Stormfront inspired rants.

If the legal entitlement for Aboriginality requires some Aboriginal descent then ethnicity is not just a social construct. Australian courts apply the three part test of Aboriginal descent, self-identification and community recognition. They have emphasised the importance of descent in establishing Aboriginal identity, but have recognised that self-identification and community recognition may be relevant to establishing descent.

The government often delegates the matter of deciding Aboriginality to local Aborigine groups. This has led to an un-elected power structure that controls who is entitled to certificates that give access to Abstudy, housing, legal services, grant and prizes etc. And of course where there is a power structure with control of resources there will be a political bunfight. Take for example, Michael Mansell, legal director of the Tasmanian Aboriginal Centre. He has been accused of rejecting thousands of people over the years ie accused of corrupting the system by approving only people likely to bolster his power base. He denies this but a couple of years ago complaints from Tasmanians who identified as Aboriginal, but were refused assistance from an Indigenous legal service, contributed to a federal decision to transfer funding from the local legal provider to a Victorian service.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-...er-tasmanian-aboriginal-legal-service/6549422

The number of people identifying as Aborigine has grown dramatically in recent years. It is ridiculous to assume that everyone who can trace their ancestry and find one Aborigine great-grandparent out of eight has been the subject of institutional discrimination that requires special treatment.

Anthony Dillon who writes the Black Steamtrain blog, and identifies as part-Aborigine, believes that some people choose to identify as Aboriginal because there's something in it for them, "and I'm not just talking about money. It's about being a bit special. It's about them getting a bit of extra status, or maybe they want other people to feel guilty: 'Your ancestors killed and raped my ancestors.'" He also believes that "special laws for Aboriginal people have weakened, not strengthened them. I don't say that certain Aboriginal people don't need assistance - of course they do, with literacy, and especially with jobs - but if there is a need, target the need, not the race."

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/li...afa0e9a64?sv=ce2eda08b23dd4aabb59cff9ff6bf511

 

[Malifice]

Well, that's how the guy described himself. It's a shame there wasn't a lawyer on the bus to put him straight.

He can describe himself however he wants.

I was just pointing out that there is no 'half [ethnic group]' that I am aware of.

Or if there is, we're all in it really.

But this a complete sidetrack to the point I was making. It's patronising to assume that the circumstances dictate outcomes. Plenty of people come from shitty backgrounds and make good decisions to create a good life for themselves and their families.

I wholly disagree with you. Free will is largely an illusion. Environment (created by circumstance, including things you have no control over from what country you popped out of a vagina on, to what social status you are, to what ethnic group you belong to, to disability and so forth) create (or limit) your choices.

If you were born a Woman in Iran, you would be a very different person to who you are now.

There is a reason that people born into poverty and crime tend to be poor criminals as adults, and why people born to wealth and prestige tend to be wealthy themselves.

 

[Malifice]

Can we try to keep this on track and not go off on one your Stormfront inspired rants.

If the legal entitlement for Aboriginality requires some Aboriginal descent then ethnicity is not just a social construct. Australian courts apply the three part test of Aboriginal descent, self-identification and community recognition. They have emphasised the importance of descent in establishing Aboriginal identity, but have recognised that self-identification and community recognition may be relevant to establishing descent.

And the courts have been equally clear that the element of 'descent' does not need to be biological. In some cases it does not need to exist at all.

For example, a person adopted into an Aboriginal family at an early age, and accepted as such by Aborigianl people (and who self identifies as such) can be Aboriginal under the law.

In 1983 the High Court of Australia[155] defined an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander as "a person of Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander descent who identifies as an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander and is accepted as such by the community in which he or she lives".

The ruling was a three-part definition comprising descent, self-identification and community identification. The first part – descent – was genetic descent and unambiguous, but led to cases where a lack of records to prove ancestry excluded some. Self- and community identification were more problematic as they meant that an Indigenous person separated from her or his community due to a family dispute could no longer identify as Aboriginal.

As a result, there arose court cases throughout the 1990s where excluded people demanded that their Aboriginality be recognised. As a result, lower courts refined the High Court test when subsequently applying it. In 1995, Justice Drummond in the Federal Court held in Gibbs v Capewell "..either genuine self-identification as Aboriginal alone or Aboriginal communal recognition as such by itself may suffice, according to the circumstances." This contributed to an increase of 31% in the number of people identifying as Indigenous Australians in the 1996 census when compared to the 1991 census.[156] In 1998 Justice Merkel held in Shaw v Wolf that Aboriginal descent is "technical" rather than "real" – thereby eliminating a genetic requirement. This decision established that anyone can classify him or herself legally as an Aboriginal, provided he or she is accepted as such by his or her community.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_Australians#Definition

 

[geelong_crazy26]

For Gods sake. Cut this bullshit stereotyping out. Its borderline racist.

Also, not sure what your '25 grand per year school' was teaching you, but full stops come at the end of sentences, with no space in between.

Like this.

Not like this .

Grammar Nazi lives.

You know I have never at any point outside of this forum been called a racist, I judge people as individuals based on merit.

Look Mal the solution to the problems we have talked about in indigenous communities is simple. If there is no work were someone be it black or white lives and they have been on Newstart for more than 12 months than they have to move to were there are jobs or lose their payments. This should be a requirement for all Newstart recipients so race has nothing to do with it at all.

 

[Malifice]

You know I have never at any point outside of this forum been called a racist, I judge people as individuals based on merit.

No you ******* dont. You were literally just judging Jewish people and Asians, just like you've been happy to do with Aboriginal people based on ethnicity and not on merit.

Saying 'Jews are good with money' is like saying: 'Asians are bad drivers' or 'Aboriginal people are lazy.' It's racist as far as Im concerned, so dont do it.

This should be a requirement for all Newstart recipients so race has nothing to do with it at all.

We dont pay Newstart allowance based on race.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

You should ask for your money back.

That does it. I'm sending my kids to public school.

You two should be thanking me for injecting so much common-sense on this board without sending a bill to bigfooty.

I am a deranged lunatic.

 

[Malifice]

You two should be thanking me for injecting so much common-sense on this board without sending a bill to bigfooty.

I am a deranged lunatic.

Fixed that for you.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

No you ******* dont. You were literally just judging Jewish people and Asians, just like you've been happy to do with Aboriginal people based on ethnicity and not on merit.

Saying 'Jews are good with money' is like saying: 'Asians are bad drivers' or 'Aboriginal people are lazy.' It's racist as far as Im concerned, so dont do it.



We dont pay Newstart allowance based on race.

That would be racists but that's not what I said. I said they were hard working which is simply a compliment.

We are also not judging any individuals here in this thread, you yourself have acknowledged there are problems more prevalent amongst Aboriginals than the rest of Australia. This is a thread about these problems and how to fix them.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Guys my dad is around so I have look like I am a hard worker, Have a good afternoon guys.

 

[owen87]

Guys my dad is around so I have look like I am a hard worker, Have a good afternoon guys.

Post of the thread right there.

 

[Malifice]

That would be racists but that's not what I said. I said they were hard working which is simply a compliment.

It doesnt matter. Saying 'white people are smarter than other races' is also racist. It infers that other races/ ethnic groups are stupid.

For the clarification of doubt:

Racism:
ˈreɪsɪz(ə)m/
noun

'The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.'

Racism is against the rules of the site. I know you meant no malice, but please avoid making sweeping generalisations about ethnic groups, either positive, or negative.

 

[owen87]

It doesnt matter. Saying 'white people are smarter than other races' is also racist. It infers that other races/ ethnic groups are stupid.

For the clarification of doubt:

Racism:
ˈreɪsɪz(ə)m/
noun

'The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.'

Racism is against the rules of the site. I know you meant no malice, but please avoid making sweeping generalisations about ethnic groups, either positive, or negative.

Fortunately we can all agree that Carlton supporters are a scourge to society.