Society/Culture Are you an ethical hypocrite?

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Number37

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I thought you'd welcome a thread on ethical hypocrisy.

It's a perfect platform for you to tell everyone how the Australian government is worse than the Taliban.

As proof, racism is bad.

Case closed.

These are my ethics, except when they're not my ethics.
I oppose animal cruelty, but not when I eat meat, only when someone else eats dog meat, then I am even more against animal cruelty.

I don't know WTF that is but it isn't ethics.
 

Sweet Jesus

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These are my ethics, except when they're not my ethics.
I oppose animal cruelty, but not when I eat meat, only when someone else eats dog meat, then I am even more against animal cruelty.

I don't know WTF that is but it isn't ethics.
It's an example of failing to live up to one's stated principles or beliefs, as I readily admit when it comes to eating meat.

It's a bit like how you reckon Australia is worse than the Taliban, despite preferring to live in Australia over Afghanistan.
 

Number37

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It's an example of failing to live up to one's stated principles or beliefs, as I readily admit when it comes to eating meat.

Just accept reality, that your anti-animal cruelty ethics don't extend as far as meat production for the meat that you eat.
All that other stuff is just convoluted nonsense.

What are you going to tell us next?
You're not a liar, except when you lie.
You're not a murderer, except when you murder.

It's a bit like how you reckon Australia is worse than the Taliban, despite preferring to live in Australia over Afghanistan.

You see a difference between person A hiring a hitman and person B hiring a hitman.
I don't see a difference.
Therefore, the burden is on you to explain that difference, not me.
 

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Sweet Jesus

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Just accept reality, that your anti-animal cruelty ethics don't extend as far as meat production for the meat that you eat.
Yeah, that's the point of the OP, acknowledging this shortcoming.

What are you going to tell us next?
You're not a liar, except when you lie.
You're not a murderer, except when you murder.
Seems like a stretch.

You see a difference between person A hiring a hitman and person B hiring a hitman.
I don't see a difference.
Therefore, the burden is on you to explain that difference, not me.
It's hard to unpick your nonsensical analogy but are you saying the Australian government supported the mujahideen back in the day?

How exactly?

Who is person A and person B? What happened exactly?
 

Number37

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1636033070760.png
 

Number37

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What's this, mate?

You have to make statements you can support.

Part of Australia's role as part of 'Operation Salam' was training the Afghan army (Mujahideen) in mine clearing. Before they could take over the job themselves we had a unit doing it for them.
Operation Salam was funded by pledges to the tune of $750m from many countries. $750m was a fair chunk of change in the 80's.
Most of it was supposed to be food/medical aid etc.

When I say Operation Salam, it wasn't just Operation Salam. There were other 'operations' but Operation Salam was just the legit facade that was hiding what was really going on.
It was a proxy US-Russia war, with the US and its allies involed up to their eyeballs.

Among a host of claims re Operation Salam:
- paid Iran to take Afghani refugees.
- established almost all of the opium trade routes in and out of Afghanistan.
- supplied ALL of the military hardware that ended up in the hands of Afghani warlords and what came to be known as the Taliban.

If you took any notice of the recent US withdrawal from Afghanistan, one of the key issues was trying to avoid the same mistake of leaving behind a sh*t-tonne of military hardware.

The pictures I posted just connect Australia to Operation Salam.
You can do some reading yourself about the ins & outs of Operation Salam.
 

Gethelred

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Part of Australia's role as part of 'Operation Salam' was training the Afghan army (Mujahideen) in mine clearing. Before they could take over the job themselves we had a unit doing it for them.
Operation Salam was funded by pledges to the tune of $750m from many countries. $750m was a fair chunk of change in the 80's.
Most of it was supposed to be food/medical aid etc.

When I say Operation Salam, it wasn't just Operation Salam. There were other 'operations' but Operation Salam was just the legit facade that was hiding what was really going on.
It was a proxy US-Russia war, with the US and its allies involed up to their eyeballs.

Among a host of claims re Operation Salam:
- paid Iran to take Afghani refugees.
- established almost all of the opium trade routes in and out of Afghanistan.
- supplied ALL of the military hardware that ended up in the hands of Afghani warlords and what came to be known as the Taliban.

If you took any notice of the recent US withdrawal from Afghanistan, one of the key issues was trying to avoid the same mistake of leaving behind a sh*t-tonne of military hardware.

The pictures I posted just connect Australia to Operation Salam.
You can do some reading yourself about the ins & outs of Operation Salam.
Can you provide a link detailing this? The best I could find is this:

... and it specifies that our duties as part of that were UN mine clearing in Pakistan and later on in Afghanistan:
UNMCTT, part of 'Operation Salaam', a multi-national aid program for Afghanistan, was a joint Australian and New Zealand force involved in training Afghani refugees in mine awareness, recognition and defusing. Australia contributed some ten teams of engineers (each of between six and nine instructors) to this project between 1989 and 1993. Training was initially undertaken in Pakistan only, but by 1991, instructors were able to plan and oversee work carried out within Afghanistan.
 

Sweet Jesus

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Part of Australia's role as part of 'Operation Salam' was training the Afghan army (Mujahideen) in mine clearing. Before they could take over the job themselves we had a unit doing it for them.
Operation Salam was funded by pledges to the tune of $750m from many countries. $750m was a fair chunk of change in the 80's.
Most of it was supposed to be food/medical aid etc.

When I say Operation Salam, it wasn't just Operation Salam. There were other 'operations' but Operation Salam was just the legit facade that was hiding what was really going on.
It was a proxy US-Russia war, with the US and its allies involed up to their eyeballs.

Among a host of claims re Operation Salam:
- paid Iran to take Afghani refugees.
- established almost all of the opium trade routes in and out of Afghanistan.
- supplied ALL of the military hardware that ended up in the hands of Afghani warlords and what came to be known as the Taliban.

If you took any notice of the recent US withdrawal from Afghanistan, one of the key issues was trying to avoid the same mistake of leaving behind a sh*t-tonne of military hardware.

The pictures I posted just connect Australia to Operation Salam.
You can do some reading yourself about the ins & outs of Operation Salam.
So clearing land mines? What specifically was Australia's involvement otherwise?

This is the central premise of your argument so presumably you've got a pretty tight case.
 
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Mofra

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What are your areas of ethical hypocrisy?
Grey lines vs hypocrisy is an interesting debate of itself. We all have areas of our own ethical values which could arguably fit in both camps.

Re: meat consumption - I eat a less than I used to, and avoid pork & octopus completely based on an arbitrary 'intelligence ranking' which I'm sure would struggle to stand up to intense scrutiny.
I don't buy milk (more health/recovery/inflammation based than real ethical concerns) but I do still buy butter and yogurt. I know there is some inherent cruelty in the dairy industry as cows don't milk unless they have recently calved, but I still haven't given up dairy completely.

As Socrates once said "I am the wisest man in Athens as I know that I know nothing" and Confucius said "True wisdom is to know the extent of one's own ignorance", it's interesting to find one's own areas of hypocrisy. We all have them.
 

Number37

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Can you provide a link detailing this? The best I could find is this:

... and it specifies that our duties as part of that were UN mine clearing in Pakistan and later on in Afghanistan:
So clearing land mines? What specifically was Australia's involvement otherwise?


One minute you guys are saying I made it all up, next minute you're saying it was only bla bla bla.


Here's a graph of Afghanistan's opium production.
Do you think it is an extraordinary coincidence that the boom in Afghani opium production beginning in 1987-88 coincides directly with Operation Salam?
All those terrorists hiding in caves somehow managed to find the time to tend to their opium crops post 9/11 in the middle of the 'war-on-terror'. Amazeballs.


1636078014677.png




How does a country in the middle of a war magically become the world's largest producer of opium?
1636078776333.png






We were just there clearing mines and accidentally the Afghanis became the world's largest producer of opium and all those fighters we helped train magically became terrorists, literally overnight.
Just like we ridded Iraq of that sh*t-bloke Saddam who was obviously hiding weapons of mass destruction that magically turn into oil upon being discovered.


Hey look, another miracle of war, that we definitely have nothing to do with.... Oil production in Iraq, going gangbusters.

1636079719642.png




Want to know what happens when the people of third world countries say 'hey we should benefit from the natural resources in our country'?
Ask the Venezuelans.

1636080063758.png




Is it ethical hypocrisy to be against people who do terrible things to their own people at the same time as we pillage and plunder that same people for our benefit?
 

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Sweet Jesus

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One minute you guys are saying I made it all up, next minute you're saying it was only bla bla bla.


Here's a graph of Afghanistan's opium production.
Do you think it is an extraordinary coincidence that the boom in Afghani opium production beginning in 1987-88 coincides directly with Operation Salam?
All those terrorists hiding in caves somehow managed to find the time to tend to their opium crops post 9/11 in the middle of the 'war-on-terror'. Amazeballs.


View attachment 1274464



How does a country in the middle of a war magically become the world's largest producer of opium?
View attachment 1274469





We were just there clearing mines and accidentally the Afghanis became the world's largest producer of opium and all those fighters we helped train magically became terrorists, literally overnight.
Just like we ridded Iraq of that sh*t-bloke Saddam who was obviously hiding weapons of mass destruction that magically turn into oil upon being discovered.


Hey look, another miracle of war, that we definitely have nothing to do with.... Oil production in Iraq, going gangbusters.

View attachment 1274474



Want to know what happens when the people of third world countries say 'hey we should benefit from the natural resources in our country'?
Ask the Venezuelans.

View attachment 1274479



Is it ethical hypocrisy to be against people who do terrible things to their own people at the same time as we pillage and plunder that same people for our benefit?
Please demonstrate Australia's support for the mujahideen beyond clearing land mines.

It is the central premise of your argument so it should be straightforward.

Alternatively, acknowledge that you can't demonstrate it.
 

Gethelred

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One minute you guys are saying I made it all up, next minute you're saying it was only bla bla bla.
I wasn't aware of the history you pointed out, which is why I asked for an additional link.

My other response to your posting was, why didn't you say that the first time when I was nigh begging you to offer support for your argument that we supported the muhajadeen?

I left that out of the last post because I wanted to move past the previous argument, something which you clearly haven't done.
Here's a graph of Afghanistan's opium production.
Do you think it is an extraordinary coincidence that the boom in Afghani opium production beginning in 1987-88 coincides directly with Operation Salam?
All those terrorists hiding in caves somehow managed to find the time to tend to their opium crops post 9/11 in the middle of the 'war-on-terror'. Amazeballs.
Do I think it's coincidence? Probably not. But that's not an argument or evidence demonstrating direct Australian involvement in the training and cultivation of the Muhajadeen.

Circumstantial, I believe, is the word.

View attachment 1274464



How does a country in the middle of a war magically become the world's largest producer of opium?
View attachment 1274469
Highly suspect, but still circumstantial and doesn't directly place Australia at the root of things.
We were just there clearing mines and accidentally the Afghanis became the world's largest producer of opium and all those fighters we helped train magically became terrorists, literally overnight.
Just like we ridded Iraq of that sh*t-bloke Saddam who was obviously hiding weapons of mass destruction that magically turn into oil upon being discovered.
We were in Pakistan for the UN, clearing mines before sending instructors to Afghanistan. The link I found was extremely short on detail, which I asked you to supply and you've decided that erecting a pavillion dedicated to circumstantial evidence is an adequate response.

Whenever you want to direct your attention to what I actually asked you, that'd be good.
Hey look, another miracle of war, that we definitely have nothing to do with.... Oil production in Iraq, going gangbusters.

View attachment 1274474



Want to know what happens when the people of third world countries say 'hey we should benefit from the natural resources in our country'?
Ask the Venezuelans.

View attachment 1274479
Is your point that America is openly and notoriously exploitative?

I may literally die of shock. Please allow me to collect myself.
Is it ethical hypocrisy to be against people who do terrible things to their own people at the same time as we pillage and plunder that same people for our benefit?
Yes, it is. One might ask - again - that you provide a basis for what we actually participated in Operation Salaam, but you seem perfectly happy hypothesizing sans more than circumstantial evidence on your own.
 

Number37

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Please demonstrate Australia's support for the mujahideen beyond clearing land mines.

It is the central premise of your argument so it should be straightforward.

Alternatively, acknowledge that you can't demonstrate it.

But but but we had no involvement with the Mujahideen, we are the dood guys.

Do you accept that we were clearing mines for the Mujahideen?
Then later on we decided that the Mujahideen are terrorists because reasons.

Do you reckon all those terrorist training camps sprang up after we stopped clearing mines for the Mujahideen?
Do you reckon maybe that those terrorist training camps were once just plain old Mujahideen training camps?

Majahideen became the Taliban.
Freedom fighters became terrorists.
Overnight.
 

Sweet Jesus

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But but but we had no involvement with the Mujahideen, we are the dood guys.

Do you accept that we were clearing mines for the Mujahideen?
Then later on we decided that the Mujahideen are terrorists because reasons.

Do you reckon all those terrorist training camps sprang up after we stopped clearing mines for the Mujahideen?
Do you reckon maybe that those terrorist training camps were once just plain old Mujahideen training camps?

Majahideen became the Taliban.
Freedom fighters became terrorists.
Overnight.
Are you criticising Australia for clearing land mines?

Can you demonstrate support for the mujahideen beyond that?

Again, this is the central premise of your argument. Can you support it or not?
 

Number37

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I wasn't aware of the history you pointed out, which is why I asked for an additional link.

My other response to your posting was, why didn't you say that the first time when I was nigh begging you to offer support for your argument that we supported the muhajadeen?

I left that out of the last post because I wanted to move past the previous argument, something which you clearly haven't done.

Do I think it's coincidence? Probably not. But that's not an argument or evidence demonstrating direct Australian involvement in the training and cultivation of the Muhajadeen.

Circumstantial, I believe, is the word.


Highly suspect, but still circumstantial and doesn't directly place Australia at the root of things.

We were in Pakistan for the UN, clearing mines before sending instructors to Afghanistan. The link I found was extremely short on detail, which I asked you to supply and you've decided that erecting a pavillion dedicated to circumstantial evidence is an adequate response.

Whenever you want to direct your attention to what I actually asked you, that'd be good.

Is your point that America is openly and notoriously exploitative?

I may literally die of shock. Please allow me to collect myself.

Yes, it is. One might ask - again - that you provide a basis for what we actually participated in Operation Salaam, but you seem perfectly happy hypothesizing sans more than circumstantial evidence on your own.

The charge was that when it suited us we were with them. It suited us because we were fighting the Russians, so were they.
Then we stopped fighitng the Russians and magically they became heaps worster than us because they longer served a need.

How come we never heard bo peep about how they treat women when we were fighting with them?
 

Sweet Jesus

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The charge was that when it suited us we were with them. It suited us because we were fighting the Russians, so were they.
Was Australia fighting the Russians in Afghanistan?

How come we never heard bo peep about how they treat women when we were fighting with them?
Was Australia fighting with the mujahideen?
 

Number37

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Are you criticising Australia for clearing land mines?

Can you demonstrate support for the mujahideen beyond that?

Again, this is the central premise of your argument. Can you support it or not?


We were just there independently minding our own business.
Our business in Aghanistan was?

We are so f'n awesome that just because we are so awesome we went to Afghanistan to clear mines in the middle of their war with Russia.
Sounds totes legit.

Definitely no benefit was provided to the people we later called terrorists because we would never do that. We would never aid and abet terrorists.
Technically, they weren't terrorists then, they only became terrorists after we finished not helping them.
So bad are they that they tricked us into believing they weren't terrorists right up until they stopped tricking us.
It is extraordinary how we were duped.
 

Sweet Jesus

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We were just there independently minding our own business.
Our business in Aghanistan was?

We are so f'n awesome that just because we are so awesome we went to Afghanistan to clear mines in the middle of their war with Russia.
Sounds totes legit.

Definitely no benefit was provided to the people we later called terrorists because we would never do that. We would never aid and abet terrorists.
Technically, they weren't terrorists then, they only became terrorists after we finished not helping them.
So bad are they that they tricked us into believing they weren't terrorists right up until they stopped tricking us.
It is extraordinary how we were duped.
Did Australia have a combat role? Did they support the mujahideen?

This is your argument. Can you support it or not?
 

Number37

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Was Australia fighting the Russians in Afghanistan?

Was Australia fighting with the mujahideen?

A rag-tag bunch of blow ins just stumbled across all kinds of military hardware that appeared, out of nowhere, right where they happened to be fighting the Russians.

Not only did this rag-tag bunch of blow ins luck into all kinds of military hardware, without any formal military training, they held off one of the world's super powers for 20 years.

At the same time as fighting a war against a world super power, with military hardware that appeared out of nowhere, they found the time to develop their opium industry into the world's largest.

These Afghanis are f'in extraordinary.
How can we seriously compete with that awesomeness?
Oh wait, you're saying they're worse than us.
We'll chalk it up as just another ethical hypocrisy of yours, what do you reckon?
 

Sweet Jesus

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A rag-tag bunch of blow ins just stumbled across all kinds of military hardware that appeared, out of nowhere, right where they happened to be fighting the Russians.

Not only did this rag-tag bunch of blow ins luck into all kinds of military hardware, without any formal military training, they held off one of the world's super powers for 20 years.

At the same time as fighting a war against a world super power, with military hardware that appeared out of nowhere, they found the time to develop their opium industry into the world's largest.

These Afghanis are f'in extraordinary.
How can we seriously compete with that awesomeness?
Oh wait, you're saying they're worse than us.
We'll chalk it up as just another ethical hypocrisy of yours, what do you reckon?
How specifically did Australia support the mujahideen?

Let me know when you can support your argument.

Or maybe you can't?
 

mattf83

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We are all hypocrites in private.

I'd prefer someone who eats meat but keeps their strong views on animal welfare private to a vegan who eats meat in private.
 

Number37

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How specifically did Australia support the mujahideen?

Let me know when you can support your argument.

Or maybe you can't?

Have a read of Robert Gates' memoir. Gethelred

One of the things he writes about is Afghanistan.
He recounts a CIA meeting where they discuss whether or not to continue supporting the Mujahideen. (that was late 70's).
 

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