Arthur speaks out about sacking

[Phone]

36yo Ricky Ponting was not being replaced by 35yo Simon Katich

 

[western royboy]

36yo Ricky Ponting was not being replaced by 35yo Simon Katich

That assumes Clarke was the right man for the job, I don't think he was at that point in time. Katich should have Captained Australia, it's a pity that he didn't in my book.

 

[Phone]

It assumes the same policy that saw Brad Haddin initially over-looked for the vice-captaincy applied to Simon Katich (eg in a time of rebuilding, an old guy with a dubious future was not going to be given a leadership position)

that's before we even get into the whole shafting thing

 

[western royboy]

It assumes the same policy that saw Brad Haddin initially over-looked for the vice-captaincy applied to Simon Katich (eg in a time of rebuilding, an old guy with a dubious future was not going to be given a leadership position)

that's before we even get into the whole shafting thing

We will have to disagree, I was at a seminar recently, the Guest Speaker was a former Test Cricketer and now commentator on the game, his comments on Simon Katich went something like this,

"Simon Katich, Croation, Catholic, outstanding batsman, Captain and leader, he should have and would have made an outstanding Captain of Australia, why didn't he? Only one Catholic has ever led Australia, Ray Lindwall for one Test in India in 1956, so if you've got kids and they've been christened, better let them down gently"

I played at Simon Katich's club and have had the pleasure of his company on more than one occasion, he is a fantastic person. There is a school of thought that M Clarke saw him as a threat to his ascension to the Captaincy and as such he went undermined Katich to such a point that within less than eighteen months of his last Test he had lost his CA contract and then his NSW one as well. Do the sums and it is a considerable amount of money.

 

[Phone]

I have no doubt Katich could have been a great captain, but his age and Ricky Ponting clinging onto the captaincy like he did effectively blocked Simon Katich from getting the job. If Ponting had quit the captaincy two years earlier, shortly after Simon Katich re-established himself in the team, Katich could have got the job (I think they rightly would have gone with Clarke, but Katich might have actually had a shot) but by the point the job opened up, Katich and Hussey and Haddin were simply not options. They weren't even considered vice-captain options, instead hoping Watson could did it. Blaming Ricky Ponting makes more sense than Michael Clarke.

 

[western royboy]

I have no doubt Katich could have been a great captain, but his age and Ricky Ponting clinging onto the captaincy like he did effectively blocked Simon Katich from getting the job. If Ponting had quit the captaincy two years earlier, shortly after Simon Katich re-established himself in the team, Katich could have got the job (I think they rightly would have gone with Clarke, but Katich might have actually had a shot) but by the point the job opened up, Katich and Hussey and Haddin were simply not options. They weren't even considered vice-captain options, instead hoping Watson could did it. Blaming Ricky Ponting makes more sense than Michael Clarke.

The issues with Michael Clarke (as an off field leader) have been there all along, it's not a new thing, yes I can understand that Ponting held on too long and I don't try to buy into the conspiracy theories re: religous persuasion but Katich's treatment has been nothing less than poor on a number of levels and that as a player, on field tactician and off field leader he might have made a better fist of it than the incumbent as a total package.

Remember he was passed over so that the opening pairing for this Ashes series could be bedded down early, that's what Hilditch told him in mid 2011when he lost his CA contract, as I recall, Lehmann announced that Rogers and Watson would open about a week out from the 1st Test and they had never batted together before in their lives..

 

[Phone]

Katich took the bullet for Ponting and Hussey. After a series loss like that, a mini re-build had to take place. So one of the three 36yos in an under performing batting line-up was an obvious victim. Being out of the team would have played a part in Katich being the victim, so too his average performances in the months before being dumped, and so too the fact that Katich simply wasn't as essential to the team as a firing Ponting and Hussey, and Hussey fired in that series, and Ponting was going to be given every opportunity to fire again. Katich was the obvious, unlucky customer. (I personally supported dumping Hussey, ftr)

And if Katich had stuck around in the shield last season, with WA or NSW, he might have been the lucky customer picked to replace Ponting and Hussey instead of Rogers. But unfortunately in Australian cricket nowadays, be it lack of spots, desire to see youth, or whatever, players leave the shield when they consider their test hopes done. (or get told to move on by their team, as you hinted NSW did to Katich previously, and as almost happened to Rogers with Victoria, and as seen with Hussey favouring a commentary gig over the shield.)

 

[Run n Spread]

The issues with Michael Clarke (as an off field leader) have been there all along, it's not a new thing.

True. Yet something has obviously gone alarmingly wrong in the last 6 months. When Clarke was appointed Australia was at its lowest ebb, thrashed by England, needed a review etc etc. Since he got the captaincy Clarke made a heap of runs and his record went:
Win in Sri Lanka
Draw in South Africa

Mickey Arthur comes in and like AB Bob Simpson combination they are told to and given the chance to reshape the team

Draw against NZ
Win against India
Win against WI away

Play off against South Africa for number 1 (unbelievable considering)
Narrow 1-0 loss which could very easily gone the other way considering SA were 8 own in Adelaide and 6-75 in Perth. From here I say things have gone very well and Clarke, with Arthur has the team on the right projection.

Since then 6 tests have been lost in a row, the feud with the Vice Captain has exacerbated to such a degree he is no longer VC and the coach was sacked. Also the culture has apparently suddenly disintegrated to such an extent players are now being suspended. Also a discarded keeper has to be bought in as a stabalising VC as the whole dressing room is divided.

Now Hussey retiring has no doubt had a big impact as he was in career best form along with Clarke. Maybe a few losses bought issues to the surface. (I don't count Ponting's retirement as his form had declined to such an extent he was on the verge of being dropped).

Hard to know if this is a phase caused by a slump and a few disagreements or such shoddy leadership that eventually has blown up in everyone's face.

 

[Phone]

the cracks were papered over by an once a lifetime run of form by Clarke

 

[western royboy]

Now Hussey retiring has no doubt had a big impact as he was in career best form along with Clarke. Maybe a few losses bought issues to the surface. (I don't count Ponting's retirement as his form had declined to such an extent he was on the verge of being dropped).

Hard to know if this is a phase caused by a slump and a few disagreements or such shoddy leadership that eventually has blown up in everyone's face.

A hard working, self made player and hugely respected, not to mention a reliable bastsman retired, the manner in which his last days as a Test and Australian Cricketer were honoured by the Captain through a range of incidents was a disgrace. If you want to mark te start of the steep decline in culture this is the point. Clarke lost a massive amount of respect right here.

 

[Run n Spread]

A hard working, self made player and hugely respected, not to mention a reliable bastsman retired, the manner in which his last days as a Test and Australian Cricketer were honoured by the Captain through a range of incidents was a disgrace. If you want to mark te start of the steep decline in culture this is the point. Clarke lost a massive amount of respect right here.

Yep makes sense and combined with the homework thing which was designed to flush Watson out and things fall apart. Discipline falls at a time where it can not afford to Cowan and Warner go off the boil and there is no one to bat with Clarke when Australia fall to 3-50. Players as is human nature will start to play for themselves.

Like I said in another post there are only so many messages you can give. Fire up, raa ra ra have a great culture are buzz words what matters is the person delivering them. Clarke appears innovative, self motivated and creative as captain looking in yet a lot of players just can't cop the message coming from him. Perhaps pi*** off he is delivering it. Can't stand him etc.

Parallels can I guess be made to England and Petierson. Bit of an individual (in a different sense to Clarke) but still a bit of wants to do his own thing. He becomes captain things go to sh&^^ yet they seem able to better manage personality differences. While not been a leader he is still a solid part of their set up and there seems fewer issues with their team culture. This could be down to Strauss and Cook or their set up, their PR department who knows? Yet when there is the occasional controversy things don't fall apart at the seams for them.

 

[King Elvis]

the cracks were papered over by an once a lifetime run of form by Clarke

I think that's a large part of it - we were very lucky to win a few of those Tests, even luckier not to lose more of them, and it was largely due to Clarke's incredible patch of form.

Now Hussey retiring has no doubt had a big impact as he was in career best form along with Clarke. Maybe a few losses bought issues to the surface. (I don't count Ponting's retirement as his form had declined to such an extent he was on the verge of being dropped).

I think this is the other part of it.

I believe Ponting and Hussey were still massive influences in that change room - two of the most professional, selfless, determined and demanding cricketers we've ever had, and two absolute champions who will be remembered as legends. Considering what has happened since their departure, I think you could make a fair argument that they acted as a circuit breaker and kept the team in line and focused (and maybe prevented Clarke from having unchecked power) - and with their departure (and, as Western said, the treatment of Hussey was a disgrace), those positive influences were lost as well as the mature, reasoned personalities who could manage their team mates.

We look like a rabble at present - the tournament we got knocked out of prior to the Ashes, we had no leadership, no direction and apparently no discipline; that's a leadership issue.

On a related note, I've had a couple of mental of days at work, so have only just come back to the thread. Thanks to those who have stuck up for me in my absence, it's much appreciated.

 

[King Elvis]

http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8698110

Is the discussion on Clarke's position in the order worth it's own thread?

Chappell thinks it's 'crazy" that he's not batting #3.

 

[Carbine Chaos]

http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8698110

Is the discussion on Clarke's position in the order worth it's own thread?

Chappell thinks it's 'crazy" that he's not batting #3.

Hasn't that topic been done to death already on this board?

 

[Tyberious Funk]

Katich put his hands around the throat of a fellow player. In any other job in the country, that would result in instant dismissal. In the world of cricket, though, somehow that puts Michael Clarke to blame.

Now I know there are a lot of people that think Katich is a "good bloke". But being a good captain means being able to deal with a group of divergent personalities. This is something Clarke seems to struggle with. But to suggest that Katich would be any better is to completely ignore history.

 

[western royboy]

Katich put his hands around the throat of a fellow player. In any other job in the country, that would result in instant dismissal. In the world of cricket, though, somehow that puts Michael Clarke to blame.

Now I know there are a lot of people that think Katich is a "good bloke". But being a good captain means being able to deal with a group of divergent personalities. This is something Clarke seems to struggle with. But to suggest that Katich would be any better is to completely ignore history.

In really good sporting club or team cultures, the players set the standard for what is acceptable behaviour and ensure everyone that is part of the team respects the traditions and rules. Those that step out of line are dealt with internally by their peers. It's what Leading Teams is based upon. It's what Katich did in this situation, I have no problem with what he did.

I've met Katich on a few occasions, he has led NSW and other sides with distinction and hehas had the respect of all of his players. I don't hear anyone with a bad word to say about him. To borrow a line from Brett Lee, "if you don't get on with Kato, you must be an ordinary bloke".

Maybe that's Brett Lee getting square as well, but Michael Clarke doesn't have a strong record of looking after people, there is a trail of people that he has used and burned on his way to the top. That's probably why for a player of his on field performances he has so little respect amongst the rank and file.

 

[placebo]

Katich put his hands around the throat of a fellow player. In any other job in the country, that would result in instant dismissal. In the world of cricket, though, somehow that puts Michael Clarke to blame.

Now I know there are a lot of people that think Katich is a "good bloke". But being a good captain means being able to deal with a group of divergent personalities. This is something Clarke seems to struggle with. But to suggest that Katich would be any better is to completely ignore history.

It's odd isn't it. Resorting to violence over a disagreement is idiotic, and Katich stepped way out of line. A shit act. But hey, he's a blokey bloke remember, so it's okay to be wildly immature, or something...

 

[maxlilly]

So Clarke should bat out of his natural position, making less runs overall, because the players we produce that are genuine top order batsmen aren't up to the task they are meant to perform?

Clarke should stay at 5, he isn't the problem. We need to look at how we are producing top order batsmen in the Shield.

Yes, I know this has been done to death... but how is the team going with Clarke at four ?
oops, maybe it's better for him and the team if he bats higher

 

[maxlilly]

Batting at 5 is best for the team. That's where he makes the most runs, at an excellent average.

Doesn't look like it sherb

 

[The_Reaper]

Yes, I know this has been done to death... but how is the team go with Clarke at four ?
oops, maybe it's better for him and the team if he bats higher

Didn't notice much swing when he came in.

 

[maxlilly]

Didn't notice much swing when he came in.

Yes, I noticed there wasn't much swing, I also noticed the door to the batsmans changeroom wasn't swinging anywhere near as much as it had in the last couple of Tests

 

[King Elvis]

So he can make runs not batting at #5??.... Intredasting!