Article on Hawks draft strategy

(Log in to remove this ad.)

RustyHawk

Premium Gold
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Posts
14,567
Likes
4,212
Location
Under the Southern Star
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Green Bay Packers
#3
That worries me just a little. If we followed that strategy last year, we would have drafted Tambling instead of Roughead.

In this years draft, things may just go our way that we end up with, for instance, a Ryder, Clark & a Kennedy. 3 Ruckman? All from WA? Hmmm
Have my doubts
 

RustyHawk

Premium Gold
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Posts
14,567
Likes
4,212
Location
Under the Southern Star
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Green Bay Packers
#5
The point being that maybe we have identified we need a "small midfielder" and yet by way the draft falls, these 3 guys are the "next best" available in the draft.

I just fail to see how this strategy will help us. Seems to straightjacketed, plus a Tambling instead of a Roughead, no way.
 

cs61

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Oct 5, 2004
Posts
8,192
Likes
853
Location
Land of the Rising Sun
AFL Club
Hawthorn
#6
RustyHawk said:
The point being that maybe we have identified we need a "small midfielder" and yet by way the draft falls, these 3 guys are the "next best" available in the draft.

I just fail to see how this strategy will help us. Seems to straightjacketed, plus a Tambling instead of a Roughead, no way.
of course they are going to say 'best available'. they said that last year as well (bucky before the draft). they are not going to be giving their drafting strategy away to the media before the draft. They can take who they like and then claim they took the 'best' available'.

don't read too much into what they say to the media, and i reckon they know what they are doing so don't get too stressed.
 

CyberKev

Premiership Player
Joined
May 23, 2001
Posts
3,702
Likes
9
Location
In a house
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Liverpool, Oakland Raiders
#7
cschreuder61 said:
of course they are going to say 'best available'. they said that last year as well (bucky before the draft). they are not going to be giving their drafting strategy away to the media before the draft. They can take who they like and then claim they took the 'best' available'.

don't read too much into what they say to the media, and i reckon they know what they are doing so don't get too stressed.
Spot on, Schreuders.

They could take either Hurn, Ellis, Ryder or Kennedy with pick 3. The only thing we can be certain of is whoever they take, they'll be describing them as the "best" player on offer after the event.

Its much ado about nothing really.
 

MightyFighting

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Jun 23, 2003
Posts
10,300
Likes
57
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Port Melbourne
#8
Grendel said:
Thanks Goosh, glad to see the 'best available' line being used.

Hope that's what they stick with draft day.
As opposed to what? Placing photos of all potential draftees on a wall and throwing darts at them while blindfolded?
 

mick

All Australian
Joined
Apr 22, 2001
Posts
787
Likes
294
Location
Glenferrie, Vic
AFL Club
Hawthorn
#9
There seems to be an oversimplification of the argument between drafting strategies "best available" as opposed to "drafting for need", particularly when the Roughead vs Tambling comparisons start. If Tambling were available at pick three this year I would be disappointed if the club did not draft him over any of the KPP's available this year. FWIW I reckon Tambling would go with the first selection if he was available for drafting this year.

Our list is so thin that the only time when the "best available" would not suit our list would be if a one paced but talented inside midfielder was the next highly rated player (Hurn maybe?). Last year was different in that not only was our list thin but in Clarko's mind we were chronically short of KPP's (with him believing that full seasons out of Holland, Barker and Hay was extremely unlikely). While we do lack talent and depth this year there are no stand-out weaknesses.

West Coast on the other hand have enough small/medium sized players of quality to overlook the next best player and concentrate on the best KPP's in the draft. WC would be one of the few clubs who are in the enviable position of being able to to identify a single weakness in their list and act upon it.

I think Pelchen is on the money, until we are in a position like West Coast and can narrow our weaknesses down to a specific area then we should always go "best available". The exception to the rule is if we have an over supply of talent in one particular type for example "one paced inside midfielders" for us or if we were in Brisbane's position we shouldn't be drafting Ruckman.

The main reason why drafting "best available" is better is because you are far more likely to get a better quality player and the more quality players that are on the list increase the chances of the ultimate success.

The reason why "drafting for need" is not going to end in a good result long term is because the club has no control over which type of player will be good in a particular draft. This will eventually lead to wasting high draft picks on players which could well have been picked up later in the draft while ignoring obvious available talent (Griffen for instance).
 

Bojangles17

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
May 17, 2004
Posts
28,677
Likes
25,053
Location
Punt Rd
AFL Club
Richmond
#10
encouraging to see that there is at least some foresight in the strategy going forward rather than the hair brained 1970s idealogy that talls win flags.....diamond cut midfields mixed with plenty of ticker win flags...and don't forget it :eek:
 

CyberKev

Premiership Player
Joined
May 23, 2001
Posts
3,702
Likes
9
Location
In a house
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Liverpool, Oakland Raiders
#11
Bojangles17 said:
encouraging to see that there is at least some foresight in the strategy going forward rather than the hair brained 1970s idealogy that talls win flags.....diamond cut midfields mixed with plenty of ticker win flags...and don't forget it :eek:
Actually, a strong balanced structure wins flags.

This entails:

* A quality spread of midfielders, including a sound mix of in and under inside types with pacy skilled outside options.

* A strong complement of KPP down the spine, involving players with better than average skills, mobility and potent marking capability.

* A viable contingent of offensive & defensive peripheral players, who as an overall group possess good skills & smarts.

* A capable ruck presence.

Had West Coast not been so lacking in component 2, they would've bolted the premiership in.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Bojangles17

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
May 17, 2004
Posts
28,677
Likes
25,053
Location
Punt Rd
AFL Club
Richmond
#12
CyberKev said:
Actually, a strong balanced structure wins flags.

This entails:

* A quality spread of midfielders, including a sound mix of in and under inside types with pacy skilled outside options.

* A strong complement of KPP down the spine, involving players with better than average skills, mobility and potent marking capability.

* A viable contingent of offensive & defensive peripheral players, who as an overall group possess good skills & smarts.

* A capable ruck presence.

Had West Coast not been so lacking in component 2, they would've bolted the premiership in.
remind me once again of the swans riches in the KPP department....according to your theory the saints would have bolted in , history told us differently :eek:
 
Joined
Aug 3, 2005
Posts
2,640
Likes
1,024
Location
Twolves, Burnley, Canberra Raiders
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Burnley
#13
Bojangles17 said:
remind me once again of the swans riches in the KPP department....according to your theory the saints would have bolted in , history told us differently :eek:
Barry Hall, Adam Goodes, Leo Barry, Craig Bolton, Lewis Roberts-Thomson with top of the range 3rd talls Ryan Okeefe and Michael Oloughlin. Does that remind you of anything.
 

Bojangles17

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
May 17, 2004
Posts
28,677
Likes
25,053
Location
Punt Rd
AFL Club
Richmond
#14
Back Pocket Rocket said:
Barry Hall, Adam Goodes, Leo Barry, Craig Bolton, Lewis Roberts-Thomson with top of the range 3rd talls Ryan Okeefe and Michael Oloughlin. Does that remind you of anything.
sure does, with the exception of Barry Hall none of the others are genuine KPP, more like flankers masquerading as KPP..... thats not to say it hasn't been an effective mix yet not too many challenged those in the AA side for KP posts...which supports my original point that its the engine room that wins flags the balance can be engineered like the swans have done to greater effect than what the saints were able to achieve with an embarrassment of riches in KP :thumbsu:
 

CyberKev

Premiership Player
Joined
May 23, 2001
Posts
3,702
Likes
9
Location
In a house
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Liverpool, Oakland Raiders
#15
I guess the Saints downfall had nothing to do with the fact that they were missing 2 of their KPP + multiple other key players + playing several players that were clearly underdone.

At any rate, the Sydney win was a freak occurence.

Even for all the good fortune they had, and allowing for the dearth of capable talls in the West Coast line-up, the Eagles would still have won had Hall not played.

It also need be noted that Sydney wouldn't have got past the Cats, if the Cats had of had a strong key forward or two.

From a Richmond perspective, do you not think that a lack of a strong CHB presence hurt the side this year? It was also noticeable how fragile the side was when Richo went down a couple of minutes into the game with Carlton. The Blues were enduring their worst losing streak in over a century, but beat you comfortably with the Bull off the paddock.
 

Adelaide Hawk

Hall of Famer
Joined
Sep 21, 2002
Posts
45,326
Likes
33,998
Location
Adelaide
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Norwood
#16
Bojangles17 said:
encouraging to see that there is at least some foresight in the strategy going forward rather than the hair brained 1970s idealogy that talls win flags.....diamond cut midfields mixed with plenty of ticker win flags...and don't forget it :eek:
If West Coast had a couple of good talls in their team they would have won the flag this season. Funny that "talls" is a "70s concept. The Hawks won plenty of flags in the 80s with Dunstall, Brereton, Mew, Langford in the spine, Kangaroos had a man named Carey, and the Lions have done pretty well with Lynch, Brown, Leppitsch and Michael. Cannot win a flag without quality talls no matter how good the midfield is.

PS .. I understand Richmond supporters still trying to justfy their selection of Tambling but it's not very convincing.
 

CyberKev

Premiership Player
Joined
May 23, 2001
Posts
3,702
Likes
9
Location
In a house
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Liverpool, Oakland Raiders
#17
Adelaide Hawk said:
PS .. I understand Richmond supporters still trying to justfy their selection of Tambling but it's not very convincing.
I don't knock them for taking Tambling, who I still think will be a good get over the long haul, but its a bit silly for Tiger fans to argue against the value of KPPs when their current side is almost totally dependent on one.
 

Bojangles17

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
May 17, 2004
Posts
28,677
Likes
25,053
Location
Punt Rd
AFL Club
Richmond
#18
Adelaide Hawk said:
If West Coast had a couple of good talls in their team they would have won the flag this season. Funny that "talls" is a "70s concept. The Hawks won plenty of flags in the 80s with Dunstall, Brereton, Mew, Langford in the spine, Kangaroos had a man named Carey, and the Lions have done pretty well with Lynch, Brown, Leppitsch and Michael. Cannot win a flag without quality talls no matter how good the midfield is.

PS .. I understand Richmond supporters still trying to justfy their selection of Tambling but it's not very convincing.
Yeah we're still agonising over the one vote the selectors awarded Buddy in the rising star.....compelling evidence that.....Tambling will win it next year

PS...you forgot one small point re the Lions...3 brownlow medalists Aker, Voss Black....where do they play again? get back to the blackboard fella you'll need to be a whole lot more convincing than dredging stats from the 80s....lol ....that was twenty years ago :p
 

CyberKev

Premiership Player
Joined
May 23, 2001
Posts
3,702
Likes
9
Location
In a house
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Liverpool, Oakland Raiders
#19
Bojangles17 said:
PS...you forgot one small point re the Lions...3 brownlow medalists Aker, Voss Black....where do they play again? get back to the blackboard fella you'll need to be a whole lot more convincing than dredging stats from the 80s....lol ....that was twenty years ago :p
LOL.

The current West Coast side had the last two Brownlow Medallists in its midfield, + the reigning runner-up, plus a few other quality types to boot, which may explain why the side was able to dominate centre clearances and inside 50s.

Imagine if they'd had the likes of Alistair Lynch & Jono Brown up forward to exploit all that inside-50 ball.
 

Main Man

Premiership Player
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Posts
4,125
Likes
2,503
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Liverpool, Old Ivanhoe!
#20
PS...you forgot one small point re the Lions...3 brownlow medalists Aker, Voss Black....where do they play again? get back to the blackboard fella you'll need to be a whole lot more convincing than dredging stats from the 80s....lol ....that was twenty years ago

The Hawks won plenty of flags in the 80s with Dunstall, Brereton, Mew, Langford in the spine, Kangaroos had a man named Carey, and the Lions have done pretty well with Lynch, Brown, Leppitsch and Michael.
LOL Bojangles=*******, You go back to blackboard and learn how to read
 

Bojangles17

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
May 17, 2004
Posts
28,677
Likes
25,053
Location
Punt Rd
AFL Club
Richmond
#21
Main Man said:
LOL Bojangles=*******, You go back to blackboard and learn how to read
I can go one better than that MM I can actually comprehend as well...more than I can say for the likes of you , how many sides did the WC leave in their wake fool......they made the GF on the back of their diamond cut midfield.....but dont worry with the Hawks outdated approach to recruitment , they always say that fashions turn the full circle......lil Al's plan might just be back in the frame by the close of the decade..:p
 

Spook

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Posts
7,050
Likes
3,570
Location
Top of the pile looking down
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Claremont
#22
CyberKev said:
Actually, a strong balanced structure wins flags.

This entails:

* A quality spread of midfielders, including a sound mix of in and under inside types with pacy skilled outside options.

* A strong complement of KPP down the spine, involving players with better than average skills, mobility and potent marking capability.

* A viable contingent of offensive & defensive peripheral players, who as an overall group possess good skills & smarts.

* A capable ruck presence.

Had West Coast not been so lacking in component 2, they would've bolted the premiership in.
That souinds like the Hawks of the 80's and 91 so I would have to agree entirley
 
Joined
Sep 13, 2000
Posts
66,315
Likes
26,033
Location
Melbourne cricket ground. Australia
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Horks
#23
Bojangles17 said:
remind me once again of the swans riches in the KPP department....according to your theory the saints would have bolted in , history told us differently :eek:

ABSOLUTELY the worst thing would be to take recruiting policy from sydneys flag.

It was a one-off.

Even worse if enough teams copy the swans the sport is stuffed.
 
Joined
Jun 24, 2004
Posts
14,616
Likes
907
Location
Guantanomo Bay
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Richmond
#24
CyberKev said:
From a Richmond perspective, do you not think that a lack of a strong CHB presence hurt the side this year? It was also noticeable how fragile the side was when Richo went down a couple of minutes into the game with Carlton. The Blues were enduring their worst losing streak in over a century, but beat you comfortably with the Bull off the paddock.
LMAO

I know i will percieved as bias but Bo has seriously carved you blokes up .

On the above point ...

Injured - Kellaway , Gaspar , N Brown that day , then Richo goes down in the opening minutes ....... take the two key forwards and the two key backmen , four out of our top 6 leaders and our most experienced players to boot , out of any side and they will struggle .

Feeble point Cyberkev....aside from the fact that it was a largely out of context performance for the season based over the period of the 22 home and aways
 

CyberKev

Premiership Player
Joined
May 23, 2001
Posts
3,702
Likes
9
Location
In a house
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Liverpool, Oakland Raiders
#25
IDGAF said:
LMAO

I know i will percieved as bias but Bo has seriously carved you blokes up .

On the above point ...

Injured - Kellaway , Gaspar , N Brown that day , then Richo goes down in the opening minutes ....... take the two key forwards and the two key backmen , four out of our top 6 leaders and our most experienced players to boot , out of any side and they will struggle .

Feeble point Cyberkev....aside from the fact that it was a largely out of context performance for the season based over the period of the 22 home and aways
If nothing else, you at least got it right with the "bias" call...

Talking of feeble points...

Hawthorn were missing a lot more than that when they comfortably accounted for Carlton the weekend before, and the Blues were smashed by 99 points by a weak Essendon line-up the week after beating you guys.

Still, I thankyou for confirming the weakness of Bo's point by totally supporting mine.

You were missing your key KPP players Richo & Gaspar and as a consequence your midfield was unable to overcome the weakest Carlton side in history.

Put simply, to argue that good KPP are insignificant factors in the creation of a strong football side is embarrassing in the extreme.

Case closed.
 
Top Bottom