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Seeds said:
can You say what the help is?

is It better to save 10000 lives but entrench a dictatorship for a 100 years or lose 10000 lives and end a dictatorship that then improves the lives of 1 billion people over the next 100 years?

im leaning towards the latter even with a discount rate applied to the lives of future generations.

give a person a fish and he is well fed but then hungry the next day. give a person a fishing line and he never goes hungry again.
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Right...

So what are you doing to end a dictatorship?

And why can't you help stop a dictatorship but also help some of the million+ children who are dying due to not having water?
 
Seeds said:
east Africa, south east Asia, south west Asia and even Latin America, Mexico and India would all happily take that bullet. In fact they are starting to take it right now. Just not fast enough.

there is still time to pressure China to revert to liberalism. Western powers have to all unite along with the rest of Asia. But that time is quickly running out.
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You want to revisit the opium wars? How did that go towards making china a western dominion? Chinese people have grown up reading and being taught of that humiliation, and will be nuked before they kowtow to western powers again.

If China becomes a democracy, it has to be driven by Chinese people, not the west
 
Ned_Flanders said:
You want to revisit the opium wars? How did that go towards making china a western dominion? Chinese people have grown up reading and being taught of that humiliation, and will be nuked before they kowtow to western powers again.

If China becomes a democracy, it has to be driven by Chinese people, not the west
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I’m not sure what your point is?

if the Chinese people are enslaved by a dictatorship then how do they free themselves? They can’t vote the CCP out? They can’t even protest in the street? They are also fed propoganda by their dictators just like North Koreans are.

democracy isn’t a government. It’s simply a government system that allows the people a right to choose their own government. By driving a push to democracy in China we arent forcing them to choose a government. We are just giving the Chinese people the right to choose for themselves. The CCP are denying the people that right and using propoganda to make them think they dont even want it.
 

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Seeds said:
I’m not sure what your point is?

if the Chinese people are enslaved by a dictatorship then how do they free themselves? They can’t vote the CCP out? They can’t even protest in the street? They are also fed propoganda by their dictators just like North Koreans are.

democracy isn’t a government. It’s simply a government system that allows the people a right to choose their own government from a set of choices. By driving a push to democracy in China we arent forcing them to choose a government. We are just giving the Chinese people the right to choose for themselves. The CCP are denying the people that right and using propoganda to make them think they dont even want it.
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Go to china and speak to Chinese people. Right or wrong, most are very supportive of the current govt.

And noone is supportive of your idea of the west imposing their values and governing system on them.

Self determination requires the self to do it, not you and your Yankee buddies
 
Seeds said:
this is Quite a repulsive post. Prosituting our values as if they are worthless for the biggest bidder. We are not Australians without our liberal values.
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US Government doesn't give a s**t about Australia outside of it remaining obedient with foreign policies. Australia went all on the US alliance post-WW2 for defence reasons not "liberal values". There's no reason it can't get along with China in a mutually beneficial way. America executing its citizens and treating its black and brown citizens poorly has hardly gotten in the way of what Australia gets out of that relationship.
 
jatz14 said:
That may be correct, but we cannot make strategic decisions based on the assumption that the Deng faction resurrects itself and takes over.

Especially given the more success Xi has with his assertive policy, the less likely he is to lose power.

On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app
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There's nothing stopping Australia riding the line between China and the US though Canberra careerists might disagree.
 
zyzzbruh said:
The ability to be aggressive no longer exists. It's too far gone beyond that point. With the power China has now its basically impossible to recover if you decide to not submit. Right now Australia has to yield in order to protect it's own vitality. As long as Australia is successful, whether it be by yielding or not, who cares about anyone else who either benefits or gets left behind. Gotta look after yourself.
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You sound like the gutless Italians in WW2. Weak as piss when it comes to fighting for what others have died for. Should be ashamed of yourself
 
Clubs are trumps said:
You sound like the gutless Italians in WW2. Weak as piss when it comes to fighting for what others have died for. Should be ashamed of yourself
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The Italians weren't gutless. They were lead down the garden path by a megalomaniac who thought that if he demanded they be tough, it wouldn't matter if they were hopelessly outgunned and out equipped.

They surrendered because they realised they had been dumped in the s**t by a megalomaniac who had left them in a battle they had no hope of winning, and it was either surrender now, or be slaughtered and forced to surrender later.

There is a moral in there somewhere, cannot quite put your finger on it.

Oh yeah. If you have almost no planes, guns, tanks or men, it doesn't matter at all whether your weak as piss or not, outcome is the same.
 
Clubs are trumps said:
You sound like the gutless Italians in WW2. Weak as piss when it comes to fighting for what others have died for. Should be ashamed of yourself
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So after being gutless to China's impulses for the last however many years, to the point where things are irreversibley in their favour, you want to fight now?? Rightio see how that goes for ya. Bite the hand that feeds you and you get slapped.

Pride was the determining factor in every empires downfall in one way or another. You're playing checkers whilst the world is playing chess and you think your way of going about it is somehow plausible.

The only way to combat China's posturing is to have the whole world behind you in an agreed movement. If you stand up by yourself then you're an idiot. The only way out of this is to use brains not braun. You need to be friends with the ones with the power, not their enemy. That would be in our best interest. The world has given the advantage to China, that's the facts of the matter, and your pride ain't gonna do s**t about it.
 

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Wanna boycott all chinese goods, good luck mate, whoever you are.

The keyboard you used to type this is probably mate in china, as is the desk your computer is placed on, as is the chair you are sitting on, as is the roof you are living under.

I love seeing these boycott china stuff, which brings me this quote from a famous movie...



This isn't 1921 mate, it's 2021. Made in china does not see sunset.
 
Ned_Flanders said:
You want to revisit the opium wars? How did that go towards making china a western dominion? Chinese people have grown up reading and being taught of that humiliation, and will be nuked before they kowtow to western powers again.

If China becomes a democracy, it has to be driven by Chinese people, not the west
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Im sorry, the word democracy amongst many interpretations, include decisions made by the people. Well, we have made our decision, we have chosen the best form of governance for us. We have chosen communism wholeheartedly. People like grandfather was from wealthy family but he joined the underground movement at 15 years of ago.

We do not need westerners telling us how to live our lives and how to run our society, if anything, we know a few things to tell the westerners how to run nations. Let results speak for itself instead of the chest pumping and self high 5 rhetoric. What's the result? chaos in the west, law and order in china.
 
Chairman Zia said:
Im sorry, the word democracy amongst many interpretations, include decisions made by the people. Well, we have made our decision, we have chosen the best form of governance for us. We have chosen communism wholeheartedly. People like grandfather was from wealthy family but he joined the underground movement at 15 years of ago.

We do not need westerners telling us how to live our lives and how to run our society, if anything, we know a few things to tell the westerners how to run nations. Let results speak for itself instead of the chest pumping and self high 5 rhetoric. What's the result? chaos in the west, law and order in china.
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You are aware I agree with you?
 
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