Play Nice As the AFL crows, rugby league works quietly on Indigenous excellence

Pippen94

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You're
right
couldn't
find
any
racism

...

You're having a laugh if you think the NRL doesn't face issues to do with racism. It isn't an issue specifically with either sport - rather it's a national issue.

This is also a fascinating hill to die on, considering the literal plethora of scandals the NRL has with most social right issues.
I never said that.

https://www.news.com.au/sport/nrl/anthem-debate-hijacked-indigenous-allstar-match-says-former-rugby-league-star/news-story/11d530bd979da583082d3235c9132c6a

As I said before, I spent literally 2 seconds googling in that post. Here is an article about the anthem topic from earlier in the year at the Indigenous All-Star event.

Interestingly, 60% of NRL fans disagree with their decision not to sing.
So you couldn't find anything about "fans going nuts" at last week's Origin?

So what you're saying is, he was in a representative team at a state carnival before 1960? And as alluded to earlier, he wasn't even the first Indigenous Australian to be in a representative team.

He was also given the honours at a national level with his first All-Australian honour (of several) in 1956. That is the equivalent of a national call-up in the NRL, whether you like that or not.
Know your history; All Australian team for 1956 represented the best players at state carnival. It was never intended even as a hypothetical national team.

I am a Queenslander so I have literally no idea who that is.

That being his opinion is wonderful for him. It is literally just an opinion though. I also agree with a lot of what he says, the AFL should always work towards being an inclusive environment for all minorities.

The fact the best argument that can be mustered is: "We are slightly better than you!" is kind of a telling statement don't you think? Both codes have been a part of both some great and horrible things towards this issue is the fact. The focus should be on addressing the root of these issues for both codes.

If you support this publication, would you support leading AFL journalists coming out writing a nit picky article about all the scandals (on pretty much every social issue) the NRL faces, and how the AFL is better in this regard (obviously ignoring any issues the AFL may have faced on this topic)? It's incredibly petty and childish, but the journalist has a track record of this kind towards the AFL, so I guess that's old news.
George Megalogenis is a respected journalist who spends more than two minutes on google researching.
He came to the same conclusion Roy Masters is being attacked for here.
 

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General Giant

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I never said that.



So you couldn't find anything about "fans going nuts" at last week's Origin?



Know your history; All Australian team for 1956 represented the best players at state carnival. It was never intended even as a hypothetical national team.



George Megalogenis is a respected journalist who spends more than two minutes on google researching.
He came to the same conclusion Roy Masters is being attacked for here.
Then he is just as full of it as Roy.
 

BobbyMorri

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It wouldn't surprise me if the VFL didn't have many aboriginals playing in its league pre-1980. player movement back then was a lot rarer and Victoria doesn't have a large indigenous population.

I like kicking the AFL whenever I get the chance, but they have normally(outside of Goodes) been on point with reconciliation. Racism is a national issue not defined by sports lines.
 

The_Wookie

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Know your history; All Australian team for 1956 represented the best players at state carnival. It was never intended even as a hypothetical national team.
Know your roles. There was no difference in Australian football. Even for the Irish games we still used to send the all australian side.

George Megalogenis is a respected journalist who spends more than two minutes on google researching.
He came to the same conclusion Roy Masters is being attacked for here.
His opinion isnt any more holy writ than masters.
 

The_Wookie

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It wouldn't surprise me if the VFL didn't have many aboriginals playing in its league pre-1980. player movement back then was a lot rarer and Victoria doesn't have a large indigenous population.

I like kicking the AFL whenever I get the chance, but they have normally(outside of Goodes) been on point with reconciliation. Racism is a national issue not defined by sports lines.
Melbourne isnt known for its large aboriginal communities - certainly nothing like Perth and WA. And up until the late 70s, the VFL was largely a metropolitan competition with occasional recruiting from WA, SA and country footy.

What changed this really was clubs in the late 70s and 80s chasing WA and SA starts like no tomorrow, and then the national drafts from '86 on.
 

abcde12345

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I never said that.
So what is the point of this whole article then? "We are slightly better than the AFL." Alright then... Glad you're holding yourself to high standards since you are convinced the AFL is fundamentally racist. It's also bizarre how the NRL media seems to want to compare itself to the AFL at every chance, but there you go.

So you couldn't find anything about "fans going nuts" at last week's Origin?
To be fair, I never made the claim they did. But that article I linked is a reference to the exact same issue (Indigenous players not singing the anthem) being discussed, just a couple of months earlier. In that poll, the comfortable majority of NRL fans believe the actions of the players are wrong. Do you believe the NRL fanbase has significantly changed over a period of a couple of months? If not, why are the comfortable majority of NRL fans against the stance the Indigenous players are taking?

Know your history; All Australian team for 1956 represented the best players at state carnival. It was never intended even as a hypothetical national team.
I don't know what you are arguing? AFL isn't international, so therefore it is racist? Bizarre.

The All-Australian recognises the best players in the country. It is similar to the NRL national team, which recognises the best players in the country - they just play against other countries too? Or do you believe the NRL national team doesn't aim to pick the best team?

George Megalogenis is a respected journalist who spends more than two minutes on google researching.
He came to the same conclusion Roy Masters is being attacked for here.
He came to the opinion one year before Roy Masters published an article that Roy Masters was under attack for said article? Intriguing.

Interestingly, he claims that "The absence of overt racism from the stands is a surprising legacy of rugby league's foundation at the time of the White Australia Policy." Just last year we had spectators banned for racism from the stands against Greg Inglis. Maybe the NRL is moving backwards with regards to racism then?

Similarly, while as he states that generations of Aboriginal players have represented Australia in rugby league. A similar thing is represented in the AFL with its All-Australian honours, as well as its state representation historically. Additionally, as stated earlier, VFL Indigenous representation goes back to before the NSWRL, and the sport of rugby league, even existed.

I think the NRL has done some great things for Indigenous Australians. I think the AFL has done some great things for Indigenous Australians too. Similarly, there have been a significant amount of controversies and scandals stemming from both ends. The Roy Masters article paints these issues in an incredibly misleading light towards both parties.
 

Our Game

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Melbourne isnt known for its large aboriginal communities - certainly nothing like Perth and WA.
And up until the late 70s, the VFL was largely a metropolitan competition with occasional recruiting from WA, SA and country footy.

The last time a full blood Victorian aborigine was recorded in a Census was 1976!

Victoria is the same as Tassie in having a shocking history of getting rid of most of its aboriginal populations by various means by the late 1800s and thats one of the reasons there has been very few Victorian aboriginal footballers.
 

Professor Knowall

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... National Rugby League commissioner Professor Megan Davis ... notes that Arthur Beetson was captain of the national team, the Kangaroos, in the 1970s, at a time when only a handful of Aboriginal people played Aussie Rules. ...
And all this does it expose the gross ignorance (or else dishonesty) of this particular commissioner, who completely ignored the many thousands of indigenous who played Australian Football in the 1970's, especially throughout WA, NT and rural SA. We've seen indigenous players named in All-Australian teams sine the first official side from 1956 (including 3 named as captain), not including Maori Brian Peake (though Roy still includes Mel Meninga. And that's without considering the indigenous named in state rep teams (VFL, SANFL and WAFL) from decades earlier.

As the Wookie correctly pointed out, the AFL still has more indigenous players in its ranks than NRL, despite the fact that NSW and Qld have the largest indigenous populations in Australia , yet Victoria with its small land area has a very small indigenous population, so that most players have to come to the AFL from remote regions far removed from the capital cities.

Pippen94 (or rotten old Roy) may try to erase the history of indigenous players in Australian Football in favour of his beloved English code and even pretend that few existed until recent times - the historical facts show otherwise.
 

Gigantor

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I think that brings the discussion to an appropriate conclusion.
 

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jatz14

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And all this does it expose the gross ignorance (or else dishonesty) of this particular commissioner, who completely ignored the many thousands of indigenous who played Australian Football in the 1970's, especially throughout WA, NT and rural SA. We've seen indigenous players named in All-Australian teams sine the first official side from 1956 (including 3 named as captain), not including Maori Brian Peake (though Roy still includes Mel Meninga. And that's without considering the indigenous named in state rep teams (VFL, SANFL and WAFL) from decades earlier.

As the Wookie correctly pointed out, the AFL still has more indigenous players in its ranks than NRL, despite the fact that NSW and Qld have the largest indigenous populations in Australia , yet Victoria with its small land area has a very small indigenous population, so that most players have to come to the AFL from remote regions far removed from the capital cities.

Pippen94 (or rotten old Roy) may try to erase the history of indigenous players in Australian Football in favour of his beloved English code and even pretend that few existed until recent times - the historical facts show otherwise.
As a kid, My mum got hold of a WAFL jumper worn by Bill Dempsey as a present, It wasnt bought to be framed, but worn. It took a while to grow into it, but when I did, I wore it as a training jumper until it fell apart in my 30s. As a young kid, it was a complete non event that he was indigenous (this would have been early 70s). At that time, Aboriginal players in the WAFL were so normal as to attract no comment at all. In fact, most peoples greatest exposure to Aboriginal people at the time came through football. This includes local footy as well as WAFL. Perth amateurs had teams and even clubs that would have been 50% Aboriginal or even more.

I cannot compare Aboriginal involvement in the VFL compared to RL, but the idea Aboriginal involvement in League is even remotely close to Aboriginal involvement in football in WA is laughable. Some WAFL sides like South Fremantle were putting out teams that would have been a third Aboriginal in the 70s.
 

RussellEbertHandball

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As a kid, My mum got hold of a WAFL jumper worn by Bill Dempsey as a present, It wasnt bought to be framed, but worn. It took a while to grow into it, but when I did, I wore it as a training jumper until it fell apart in my 30s. As a young kid, it was a complete non event that he was indigenous (this would have been early 70s). At that time, Aboriginal players in the WAFL were so normal as to attract no comment at all. In fact, most peoples greatest exposure to Aboriginal people at the time came through football. This includes local footy as well as WAFL. Perth amateurs had teams and even clubs that would have been 50% Aboriginal or even more.

I cannot compare Aboriginal involvement in the VFL compared to RL, but the idea Aboriginal involvement in League is even remotely close to Aboriginal involvement in football in WA is laughable. Some WAFL sides like South Fremantle were putting out teams that would have been a third Aboriginal in the 70s.
Nice post.

But if you said Aboriginal + Pacific Islanders in the NRL then they would be greater than the South Freo sides.

I don't know if Roy is senile or deliberately mischievous in his article, but a bit over 40% of NRL lists are made of players with Aboriginal + Pacific Islander heritage.
 

BringBackTorps

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While Aussie Rules had the wider reach, rugby league was the more tolerant code, including Indigenous Australians from the start [?].
Were there any Aboriginal, or dark skinned players, playing in first grade RU up to 1907? And any in first grade NSWRL from 1908?

I doubt very few would deny many Australians were racist until the 1960's.

It is false to claim that AF and/or AFL fans are racist in the modern era. There have been c.100+ VFL/AFL players of Aboriginal descent since the 1980's- but only one who was widely booed (Many Aboriginals played, also, in the WAFL & SANFL).
The vast majority of AFL fans are not racist.
A. Goodes, after being involved in very controversial " simulated spear throwing/war dance directly at Carlton fans" incidents & statements (including his inflammatory "...I'm ashamed to be Australian..." comments), was widely booed- but not for racist reasons. Sydney's L. Jetta later did a similar "simulated spear throwing/war dance" directly at West Coast fans.

Tom "Darky" Banks was the son of an escaped African-American slave, & was dark-skinned. He was a Fitzroy player from 1888 to 1897, & was highly respected. He was twice captain of Victoria, captained Fitzroy for 5 years (V/Captain in 1889 & 90), was a Fitzroy & VFL Life Member, & was a Fitzroy VFL Delegate for 23 years. He was also an ANFC Life member.

Due to his dark skin, many fans thought he was an Aboriginal (& his brother, Albert "Darky" Banks, who played about 180 games in the WAFL). He was reticent to comment on his background. At his funeral, his coffin was brought back to the Brunswick St Clubrooms, attended by a huge wake.

The link below demonstrates, in evocative language, the very high regard that Tom Banks was held. There were many Australians in earlier eras who were not racists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Banks_(Australian_rules_footballer)
 
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Pippen94

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Know your roles. There was no difference in Australian football. Even for the Irish games we still used to send the all australian side.
Jim Stynes made All Australian - it's not a national team.

I love how WA, SA and the NT may as well not exist in these articles. Its apparently not just the AFL ignoring WA and SA football history. Never mind the funding and programs the state bodies and the AFL run, both separately and together.

There were plenty of examples for Aboriginal players to follow - captains of teams, representatives in the All Australian side.

The authors should note that both the AFL and NRL have a similar percentage of aboriginal players (10% for the AFL, 11% for the NRL, with the AFL actually having more indigenous players in total), and with that in mind should note that in the year Goodes was "driven off" the league, there were another 70 odd players who werent.
I guess if 70 stay it is alright.

Aboriginal players have starred in our game for decades. The Krakeur Brothers, McAdams, Kicketts, Polly Farmer, the Rioli family, Stephen Michael, Michael Long, Gavin Wanganeen, Nicky Winmar, Syd Jackson, Eddie Betts, Andrew Mcleod, Michael Mclean, Darryl White, the Burgoynes...the list goes on.
Indigenous athletes compete in many sports in great numbers, yet no other sport has had anything recently equivalent to the booing of Adam Goodes.
 

Pippen94

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Were there any Aboriginal, or dark skinned players, playing in first grade RU up to 1907? And any in first grade NSWRL from 1908?

I doubt very few would deny many Australians were racist until the 1960's.

It is false to claim that AF and/or AFL fans are racist in the modern era. There have been c.100+ VFL/AFL players of Aboriginal descent since the 1980's- but only one who was widely booed (Many Aboriginals played, also, in the WAFL & SANFL).
Absolute rubbish - really doesn't deserve a response. Nicky Winmar never copped abuse? Eddie Betts? I could list almost every player.
Thats not counting racism from players, administration & the media.
Pull your head in.
 

Our Game

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Nice post.

But if you said Aboriginal + Pacific Islanders in the NRL then they would be greater than the South Freo sides.

I don't know if Roy is senile or deliberately mischievous in his article, but a bit over 40% of NRL lists are made of players with Aboriginal + Pacific Islander heritage.


We are not talking about recent Islander/Maori migrants but our home grown Aboriginals who have been on this island for over 40,000 years.
 

Our Game

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Jim Stynes made All Australian - it's not a national team.



I guess if 70 stay it is alright.



Indigenous athletes compete in many sports in great numbers, yet no other sport has had anything recently equivalent to the booing of Adam Goodes.
So what about the current booing of Gary Abblett is that also racist?

A hell of a lot of football supporters just didnt like Adam Goodes as a footballer and booed him for that nothing about it being racist.
 

The_Wookie

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Jim Stynes made All Australian - it's not a national team.
And Islanders have been selected for the Kangaroos. Not a national team then. Ok. as long as we have a benchmark for national to work with.

I guess if 70 stay it is alright.
Not the point.

Indigenous athletes compete in many sports in great numbers, yet no other sport has had anything recently equivalent to the booing of Adam Goodes.
Goodes had something of perfect storm that none of the others had. His Australian of the Year award speech wasnt calculated to make people happy. He played in front of big crowds almost weekly - including in Perth where booing anything not from Perth is par for the course, and not just limited to Goodes.

Maybe if these other Australian sports could decent crowds on a regular basis, things might be different. The more people that go, the greater the likelihood you'll get some idiots. But its nonsense to assume it was all race related. I dont buy it.

Some of the booing was racist, yes, there are ignorant folks out there. Theres more than a few people out there who didnt overly like his playing style and methods, others didnt like his handling of a teenage girl on national tv. Challenging the cheersquad with a war dance aimed at them probably wasnt ideal. And theres a few people who boo because they were told they cant.
 

Professor Knowall

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While Aussie Rules had the wider reach, rugby league was the more tolerant code, including Indigenous Australians from the start. National Rugby League commissioner Professor Megan Davis explains that the largest urban populations of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people today live in rugby league territory. ... rugby league has an unbroken link to the Aboriginal people of NSW and Queensland because the game became an immediate tool of inclusion for the men who were forced into racially segregated missions and reserves at Federation.

"This is often how Aboriginal men were able to leave the reserves and missions: with permission to play in local rugby league games, alongside white Australians," says Davis, ... Davis says another factor is the example of generations of Aboriginal players who represented Australia in rugby league. ...
So, having demolished the outlandish claim that few indigenous played Australian Football before he 1970's, let's now examine this claim (coming from the same dubious source) that indigenous players were welcomed into rugby league right from its introduction into Australia (1908), thus spawning "... generations of Aboriginal players who represented Australia ...".

The problem is that in contrast to Australian Football, which has had indigenous representation in uninterrupted (apart from wars) since 1908, and indigenous representation in All-Australian teams sine the very first one in 1956, there was noindigenous representation at all in the Australian Rugby League until 1960 - a whopping 52 years, despite (as correctly noted by NRL Commissioner Davis) the very large indigenous populations in NSW and Qld, including large urban populations (unlike Victoria).

One can only logically conclude that, contrary to the propaganda quoted above (e.g "... from the start..."), the actual facts suggest there must've been a lot of systemic racism against indigenous rugby league players up to around 1960, preventing any from reaching national selection, in contrast to Australian Football. It seems rugby league thus excluded "generations of aboriginal players" from national selection.
 
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BringBackTorps

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Absolute rubbish - really doesn't deserve a response. Nicky Winmar never copped abuse? Eddie Betts?[Straw Man argument. I never said that] I could list almost every player.[No you can't!. This is false. You are trolling]
Why won't you answer the question I put to you ("Were there any Aboriginal, or dark skinned players, playing in first grade RU up to 1907; and in first grade NSWRL from 1908"?)

In addition to Tom Banks (African American heritage), there were also early VFL players of Chinese origin. Were there any early Asian-background players in first grade RU or RL? Details?

There have been 100-150 Aboriginal players in the VFL/AFL since 1980 (& many more in the WAFL & SANFL history- why have you ignored them in your claims?).
It is a disgrace that a very small no. have been racially abused- but this is from an VFL/AFL fan attendance of c. 150,000,000 + since 1980. The % is infintisimal, & no claims of "widespread racism" can be drawn from this.
 
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Gigantor

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We haven't broached the subject of crowd sizes have we?
 
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