Play Nice As the AFL crows, rugby league works quietly on Indigenous excellence

[Pippen94]

And Islanders have been selected for the Kangaroos. Not a national team then. Ok. as long as we have a benchmark for national to work with.

All Australian = Dally M awards. Closest thing to a national team like Kangaroos or Matildas would be the most high profile club Collingwood.
Pies first Indigenous player was in 1982 & the second wasn't until 1995. From inception to the year 2000 only two Indigenous players appeared for Collingwood.

 

[Pippen94]

Why won't you answer the question I put to you ("Were there any Aboriginal, or dark skinned players, playing in first grade RU up to 1907; and in first grade NSWRL from 1908"?)

In addition to Tom Banks (African American heritage), there were also early VFL players of Chinese origin. Were there any early Asian-background players in first grade RU or RL? Details?

I don't know why you're asking these questions.

There have been 100-150 Aboriginal players in the VFL/AFL since 1980 (& many more in the WAFL & SANFL history- why have you ignored them in your claims?).
It is a disgrace that a very small no. have been racially abused- but this is from an VFL/AFL fan attendance of c. 150,000,000 + since 1980. The % is infintisimal, & no claims of "widespread racism" can be drawn from this.

If you think only a handful of players have been racially abused since 1980 you must be new to the sport.
Check the YouTube clip where Dermott Brereton apologies to Chris Lewis to see the widespread abuse.

 

[Pippen94]

So, having demolished the outlandish claim that few indigenous played Australian Football before he 1970's, let's now examine this claim (coming from the same dubious source) that indigenous players were welcomed into rugby league right from its introduction into Australia (1908), thus spawning "... generations of Aboriginal players who represented Australia ...".

The problem is that in contrast to Australian Football, which has had indigenous representation in uninterrupted (apart from wars) since 1908, and indigenous representation in All-Australian teams sine the very first one in 1956, there was noindigenous representation at all in the Australian Rugby League until 1960 - a whopping 52 years, despite (as correctly noted by NRL Commissioner Davis) the very large indigenous populations in NSW and Qld, including large urban populations (unlike Victoria).

One can only logically conclude that, contrary to the propaganda quoted above (e.g "... from the start..."), the actual facts suggest there must've been a lot of systemic racism against indigenous rugby league players up to around 1960, preventing any from reaching national selection, in contrast to Australian Football. It seems rugby league thus excluded "generations of aboriginal players" from national selection.

The current competition is an extension of the vfl not wafl, NT or whatever. Very few Indigenous players in the vfl prior to the 1980's. Explains why the competition has had so much trouble in this area.

 

[abcde12345]

All Australian = Dally M awards. Closest thing to a national team like Kangaroos or Matildas would be the most high profile club Collingwood.
Pies first Indigenous player was in 1982 & the second wasn't until 1995. From inception to the year 2000 only two Indigenous players appeared for Collingwood.

No, that would be the Brownlow Medal.

If you're changing the goal posts to that though, it gets even better. Carlton (one of the Big 4 clubs) had an Indigenous player in 1931. Essendon in 1947. Amazing how unaccepting rugby league is of Indigenous people, when the national team took until 1960 while our apparent equivalents started all the way back in 1931.

If you're gonna change the goalposts constantly, might wanna do a bit of research first so you aren't digging yourself in deeper.

 

[abcde12345]

Something else that might be of interest: there are more Indigenous people in either NSW or QLD alone than in Victoria, SA, WA and Tasmania combined. 2016 census figures show that NSW has an Indigenous population of 216,176, QLD has an Indigenous population of 186,482, while the sum of the Indigenous population of VIC, SA, WA and TAS is 181,522.

If you include the NT as an exclusively AFL territory, the numbers are:
NSW, ACT and QLD: 409,166
VIC, WA, SA, TAS and NT: 239,770

So despite having an Indigenous population in NRL heartland over 70% larger, there are more listed Indigenous players in the AFL than the NRL, and a similar percentage of players.

 

[abcde12345]

The current competition is an extension of the vfl not wafl, NT or whatever. Very few Indigenous players in the vfl prior to the 1980's. Explains why the competition has had so much trouble in this area.

Indigenous Players Prior to 1980:

VFL: Joe Johnson, Norm Byron, George Simmonds, Alf Egan, Doug Nicholls, Shadrach James, Eddie Jackson, Norm McDonald, Percy Johnson, Jim Wandin, Cyril Collard, Charlie Stewart, Graham Farmer, Elkin Reilly, Ted Lovett, Percy Cummings, Bert Johnson, Derek Peardon, Reuben Cooper, Syd Jackson, Barry Cable, Alan Bloomfield, Robert Muir, Colin Graham

NSWRL: George Ambrum, Arthur Beetson, Larry Corowa, Steve Ella, Eric Ferguson, David Grant, George Green, Johnny Jarrett, Robert Laurie, Kevin Longbottom, Walter Mussing, Ron Saddler, Eric Simms, Walter Slockie, Bruce Stewart, Kevin Yow Yeh

Total Indigenous VFL Players Prior to 1980: 24
Total Indigenous NSWRL Players Prior to 1980: 16

Let me know if I've missed any on either side.

So maybe that statement you made isn't quite accurate either. Worth considering that Victoria also has a significantly smaller Indigenous population than NSW (currently NSW has 4.5x, don't have figures for historicals).

 

[Pippen94]

No, that would be the Brownlow Medal.

If you're changing the goal posts to that though, it gets even better. Carlton (one of the Big 4 clubs) had an Indigenous player in 1931. Essendon in 1947. Amazing how unaccepting rugby league is of Indigenous people, when the national team took until 1960 while our apparent equivalents started all the way back in 1931.

If you're gonna change the goalposts constantly, might wanna do a bit of research first so you aren't digging yourself in deeper.

Dally M team of the year awards the best players in the competition over a season - this is equivalent with the All Australian honour. There is nothing like a national team as no other nation chooses to play the sport.
Collingwood would be closest in profile & like you I would not attempt to defend its record in the area of Indigenous players.

 

[Pippen94]

Something else that might be of interest: there are more Indigenous people in either NSW or QLD alone than in Victoria, SA, WA and Tasmania combined. 2016 census figures show that NSW has an Indigenous population of 216,176, QLD has an Indigenous population of 186,482, while the sum of the Indigenous population of VIC, SA, WA and TAS is 181,522.

If you include the NT as an exclusively AFL territory, the numbers are:
NSW, ACT and QLD: 409,166
VIC, WA, SA, TAS and NT: 239,770

So despite having an Indigenous population in NRL heartland over 70% larger, there are more listed Indigenous players in the AFL than the NRL, and a similar percentage of players.

Indigenous athletes compete in many sports in great numbers. In Rugby League about 18% of all registered players have Indigenous background.
Only one sport however, has recently produced an incident like the one which unfolded with Adam Goodes.

 

[The_Wookie]

All Australian = Dally M awards. Closest thing to a national team like Kangaroos or Matildas would be the most high profile club Collingwood.

And now Im utterly convinced your a troll. The Dally M is almost the equivelant of the Brownlow.

Pies first Indigenous player was in 1982 & the second wasn't until 1995. From inception to the year 2000 only two Indigenous players appeared for Collingwood.

Before 1982 there were 11 other clubs in the VFL, plus 18 or so SANFL/WAFL clubs. But sure, hold Collingwood up as representative.

 

[Pippen94]

Indigenous Players Prior to 1980:

VFL: Joe Johnson, Norm Byron, George Simmonds, Alf Egan, Doug Nicholls, Shadrach James, Eddie Jackson, Norm McDonald, Percy Johnson, Jim Wandin, Cyril Collard, Charlie Stewart, Graham Farmer, Elkin Reilly, Ted Lovett, Percy Cummings, Bert Johnson, Derek Peardon, Reuben Cooper, Syd Jackson, Barry Cable, Alan Bloomfield, Robert Muir, Colin Graham

NSWRL: George Ambrum, Arthur Beetson, Larry Corowa, Steve Ella, Eric Ferguson, David Grant, George Green, Johnny Jarrett, Robert Laurie, Kevin Longbottom, Walter Mussing, Ron Saddler, Eric Simms, Walter Slockie, Bruce Stewart, Kevin Yow Yeh

Total Indigenous VFL Players Prior to 1980: 24
Total Indigenous NSWRL Players Prior to 1980: 16

Let me know if I've missed any on either side.

So maybe that statement you made isn't quite accurate either. Worth considering that Victoria also has a significantly smaller Indigenous population than NSW (currently NSW has 4.5x, don't have figures for historicals).

Using your figures, there were more Indigenous players in the NRL in one year than in the vfl for the entire decade of the 70's. Vfl be so white.

 

[abcde12345]

Dally M team of the year awards the best players in the competition over a season - this is equivalent with the All Australian honour. There is nothing like a national team as no other nation chooses to play the sport.

Dally M Medal: The Dally M Medal is awarded each year (annually) to the player voted for as the 'Player of the year' over the National Rugby League (NRL) regular season.

Brownlow Medal: The Brownlow Medal (formally the Charles Brownlow Trophy) is an individual award given to the player judged fairest and best in the Australian Football League (AFL) during the regular season.

All-Australian Team: The All-Australian team is an all star team of Australian rules footballers, selected by a panel at the end of each season. It represents a complete team, including an interchange bench, of the best performed players during the season, led by that season's premiership coach.

So unless you're now going to argue that either the National Rugby League Team is either not selected using the best players, or does not represent a complete team, then I think we can put that stupid discussion to bed.

Collingwood would be closest in profile & like you I would not attempt to defend its record in the area of Indigenous players.

This statement is entirely dependent on time period.

For instance, at the time I mentioned of Carlton's first Indigenous player, they were comfortably the most attended team, and had almost double the attendance of Collingwood. So no, you can't just make the blanket statement that Collingwood is the highest profile team.

Indigenous athletes compete in many sports in great numbers. In Rugby League about 18% of all registered players have Indigenous background.
Only one sport however, has recently produced an incident like the one which unfolded with Adam Goodes.

This is also incorrect. The NRL factsheet on Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders, as linked below, shows the number is 12% in the NRL. This number is very similar to the AFL figure, despite the NRL having almost double the Indigenous population to pull from in its heartland states.

https://www.nrl.com/siteassets/community/nrl---indigenous-fact-sheet-v6.pdf

Using your figures, there were more Indigenous players in the NRL in one year than in the vfl for the entire decade of the 70's. Vfl be so white.

And the AFL has 4.5 times the Indigenous players this year than the NSWRL had in its entire pre-80s history. I have literally no idea what that statement is supposed to show? Other than that you've given up on actually providing anything else in your arguments.

 

[BringBackTorps]

I don't know why you're asking these questions.

You know why- you are attempting to smear AF fans as racist; & you are refusing to answer my questions/respond to AF facts which disprove your smear.

I have linked an article, in post #39, on Tom "Darky" Banks, a dark-skinned (son of an escaped African-American slave) Fitzroy player & Captain, who played from 1888-1897. He also twice captained Victoria, & was a Life Member of Fitzroy, the VFL, & the Aust. National Football Council.
His brother Albert "Darky" Banks also played in the WAFL.

Banks (Fitzroy Captain 1891-95, Vice. Captain 1889-90) was probably the FIRST dark-skinned man to permanently Captain an elite, white sporting team in Australia; &, possibly, the (white) world, at Club level.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/140250583

Pompey Austin, an Aboriginal, played 1 game for Geelong senior team in 1872.

Colac Sammy, an Aboriginal, also played for Colac in 1877.

Joe Johnson, who played for Fitzroy between 1904-06, was the first Aboriginal player in the VFL. The Brunswick St Oval is reasonably close to the Yarra Bend clearing ground, where Marngrook had previously been played until c.1860. Johnson was named second best on ground in their 1904 Premiership- & played in their 1905 Premiership (He was voted best on ground in the 1905 Preliminary Final).
Johnson was also Captain & Coach of Brunswick in the VFA from 1907-09, coaching them to a Premiership in 1909- probably the FIRST Aboriginal to Captain and/or Coach whites, at elite level, in any sport in Australia. He returned to Northcote in the VFA (his 1903 club) in 1912, & Coached them in 1914.

You know early First Grade RU & RL does not have a remote comparison to this pedigree of very early AF Aboriginal acceptance. Thus, you ignore my questions.

http://websites.sportstg.com/assoc_...task=DETAIL&articleID=5878904&sectionID=75918

http://marvmelb.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-first-indigenous-vfl-player.html

Post #56 above lists many other pre 1960 VFL Aboriginal players (even though Vic. has a tiny Aboriginal population). There are FAR more Aboriginals in the WAFL & SANFL, which you are studiously & conveniently ignoring in your obvious efforts to smear AF.

Despite having FAR more Aboriginals in NSW & Qld. (cf WA, SA, NT, Vic. & Tas.), what conclusions can we draw from the significant absence of First Grade RU Aboriginal/dark skinned players pre-1908; & early First Grade NSW/QRL players from 1908? Early First Grade RU & RL was racist?

Will you answer the questions I put to you in posts # 39 & 49 above?

 

[Sttew]

A league apologist. Cute.

A league plant, I'd say

 

[Sttew]

Dally M team of the year awards the best players in the competition over a season - this is equivalent with the All Australian honour. There is nothing like a national team as no other nation chooses to play the sport.
Collingwood would be closest in profile & like you I would not attempt to defend its record in the area of Indigenous players.

What is Collingwood closest in profile to?

 

[Professor Knowall]

A league plant, I'd say

It's too obvious, isn't it. The funny thing is, all he's achieved is highlight, through this thread, how much better Australian Football has been in getting indigenous players into the sport compared to his English game.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Before 1982 there were 11 other clubs in the VFL, plus 18 or so SANFL/WAFL clubs. But sure, hold Collingwood up as representative.

Found this the other day - every WAFL Aboriginal player since Jimmy Melbourne debuted in 1900 to play for a WAFL club up to end of 2010. Lists players by Flags won, GF's played in, different medals won and then all the players by club.

South Freo had 68, Claremont had 41 Perth had 51 up to end of 2010 are the top 2 clubs.

http://websites.sportstg.com/assoc_page.cgi?c=1-5545-0-0-0&sID=222369

 

[Pippen94]

And now Im utterly convinced your a troll. The Dally M is almost the equivelant of the Brownlow.




Before 1982 there were 11 other clubs in the VFL, plus 18 or so SANFL/WAFL clubs. But sure, hold Collingwood up as representative.

How cheap of me to pick on the league's most prominent team. Collingwood has had more recent racism scandals than most sports; Another fan banned in April for abusing a player, Heritier Lumumba's claims of abuse by teammates supported by Leon Davis, Eddie McGuire's comments towards Adam Goodes, Anti-Muslim signage placed by fans.
Of course, the league boasts 11% Indigenous player numbers so who cares?

 

[NoobPie]

How cheap of me to pick on the league's most prominent team. Collingwood has had more recent racism scandals than most sports; Another fan banned in April for abusing a player, Heritier Lumumba's claims of abuse by teammates supported by Leon Davis, Eddie McGuire's comments towards Adam Goodes, Anti-Muslim signage placed by fans.
Of course, the league boasts 11% Indigenous player numbers so who cares?

I think he's a troll but also an idiot who genuinely thinks he is practicing logic

 

[Pippen94]

Dally M Medal: The Dally M Medal is awarded each year (annually) to the player voted for as the 'Player of the year' over the National Rugby League (NRL) regular season.

Brownlow Medal: The Brownlow Medal (formally the Charles Brownlow Trophy) is an individual award given to the player judged fairest and best in the Australian Football League (AFL) during the regular season.

All-Australian Team: The All-Australian team is an all star team of Australian rules footballers, selected by a panel at the end of each season. It represents a complete team, including an interchange bench, of the best performed players during the season, led by that season's premiership coach.

So unless you're now going to argue that either the National Rugby League Team is either not selected using the best players, or does not represent a complete team, then I think we can put that stupid discussion to bed.

I stated Dally M team of year not medal.

This is also incorrect. The NRL factsheet on Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders, as linked below, shows the number is 12% in the NRL. This number is very similar to the AFL figure, despite the NRL having almost double the Indigenous population to pull from in its heartland states.

https://www.nrl.com/siteassets/community/nrl---indigenous-fact-sheet-v6.pdf

I stated registered players not NRL players.

Reading problems?

 

[Pippen94]

It's too obvious, isn't it. The funny thing is, all he's achieved is highlight, through this thread, how much better Australian Football has been in getting indigenous players into the sport compared to his English game.

Only comparison is with NRL which has higher % of players at all levels. Take home should be the use of player numbers by fans to offset racism.

 

[The_Wookie]

How cheap of me to pick on the league's most prominent team. Collingwood has had more recent racism scandals than most sports; Another fan banned in April for abusing a player, Heritier Lumumba's claims of abuse by teammates supported by Leon Davis, Eddie McGuire's comments towards Adam Goodes, Anti-Muslim signage placed by fans.
Of course, the league boasts 11% Indigenous player numbers so who cares?

It is cheap. It would be like me calling all NRL clubs salary cheats based of the Storms rep.

Collingwood may be a prominent team, its no longer the most prominent. There are any number of half a dozen clubs that could be up there. In any case, you've chosen one club of 18. 40 odd players out of 800 in any given season.

 

[Professor Knowall]

So, apart from taking 52 years to get an indigenous Australian rep (despite claims it "was always a Koori game", in contrast to an indigenous player being named in the first Australian Football All-Australian side in 1956 and also partaking in the first actual tour to Ireland and USA in 1968, the remarkable thing is that the indigenous participation in NRL is only about the same as the AFL, despite the fact that almost two thirds of indigenous are in NSW and Qld, and Victoria has a relatively tiny indigenous population.

Really, the NRL should have twice the rate of AFL indigenous players or even more given the NSW/Qld populations and the fact that many AFL indigenous players are sourced from very remote locations in NT and WA. They obviously need to do a whole lot more, like the AFL has done, to remove the barriers they seem to have put in the way of elite level indigenous participation.

 

[abcde12345]

I stated registered players not NRL players.

Reading problems?

Fair enough, I misread that.

I stated Dally M team of year not medal.

If you're stating that the All-Australian team is incomparable to the Australian Rugby League Team, but then go on to say that Collingwood is (because not even the biggest club today by crowd or membership status is and has always been the highest profile club), you really open yourself to ridicule.

Collingwood has had more recent racism scandals than most sports; Another fan banned in April for abusing a player, Heritier Lumumba's claims of abuse by teammates supported by Leon Davis, Eddie McGuire's comments towards Adam Goodes, Anti-Muslim signage placed by fans.
Of course, the league boasts 11% Indigenous player numbers so who cares?

And last year a fan was banned for racially abusing Greg Inglis.

Around the time Harry O was playing for Collingwood, Andrew Johns was banned from coaching NSW SOO team for racially abusing Greg Inglis.

As any balanced person can work out, there have been issues of racism in both sports, obviously because it's a national issue. The fact you are clutching to being slightly better than the AFL (in your opinion) in this regard is bizarre to be honest, not to mention signing up on an AFL forum to come and tell everyone how much better you think your code is.

On the positive, I learnt a lot more about the good footy has done for Indigenous people, which is great. The media loves to focus on everything negative, so it can often cloud out the good.

 

[BringBackTorps]

This link shows the esteem for which Fitzroy's Tom Banks was held- he was given the Fitzroy 1895 VFA Premiership ball, properly mounted, with a sterling silver attached plaque (which sold recently for c. $12,200).

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/afl/fitzroy-ball-of-1895-goes-up-for-auction-20041205-gdk93r.html

T. Banks also captained the (white) Victoria team in 1892 & 1893 against SA. This was an Australian-First for a dark-skinned man at this level; & probably a world first for a dark-skinned man captaining a white sporting team, at the elite state/provincial/county level.

When he was playing, the general public belief was that he was Aboriginal. In recent eras, it was re-discovered he had African-American heritage. (The Encyclopedia Of League Players, J. Main & R. Holmesby, 1992, Wilkinson Books, 45 Flinders Lane Melbourne, pg 16).

 

[Johnny Bananas]

So what about the current booing of Gary Abblett is that also racist?

A hell of a lot of football supporters just didnt like Adam Goodes as a footballer and booed him for that nothing about it being racist.

I am not an RL troll but let's be fair here, while plenty of supporters didn't boo him for racist reasons, plenty of them did. There are a hell of a lot of people in this country who just can't stand seeing a black man be vocal about their treatment and demand change, because those people feel threatened or attacked by it.

This isn't specific to Aussie Rules of course, it's just as prevalent in RL as has been pointed out earlier with the response by fans to Walker and Addo Carr refusing to sing the anthem, among other examples. It's a national issue.