Religion Ask a Christian - Part 2

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Markfs

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would everyone please settle down and show some christian compassion and understanding....
 

Markfs

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i must admit that I have always thought that the christians on here were cheating with regards copyright, because they were able to consult with god before they posted... i have to rely on my own skills
 

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Opine

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would everyone please settle down and show some christian compassion and understanding....
Try going into a thread that’s concerned with other protected attributes and trolling. Some of the stuff that people get away with in here wouldn’t be tolerated in other threads. But that’s another issue in itself. The Christians who provide you lot an audience to converse with in here should simply tell you all to take a hike and abandon the thread.
 
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Markfs

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Try going into a thread that’s concerned with other protected attributes and trolling. Some of the stuff that people get away with in here wouldn’t be tolerated in other threads. But that’s another issue in itself. The Christians who provide you lot an audience to converse with in here should simply tell you all to take a hike and abandon the thread.

if i could be bothered i'd go back and cut and paste some of your name calling, but I've never been too concerned about the words directed at me unless I respect the person who directing them....water off a duck's back as st. cuthbert used to say....read about him here
 

Rosscoe

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In Jewish eschatology, the term mashiach, or "Messiah", refers specifically to a future Jewish king from the Davidic line, who is expected to save the Jewish nation, and will be anointed with holy anointing oil and rule the Jewish people during the Messianic Age.

Specifically, the Hebrew Scriptures state that the Messiah of the Jews will be recognized as the true one by fulfilling the following prophecies:
  • The Messiah will be totally human;
  • The Messiah will be an observant Jew, from the Tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10; Numbers 24:17; Deuteronomy 17:15);
  • The Messiah will be a direct male descendant of Davidic bloodline (2 Samuel 7:12-16; Jeremiah 39:17; Psalm 89:29-38; 1 Chronicles 17:11, 1 Chronicles 22:10, 2 Chronicles 7:18); This is for obvious reasons, the Kingship of Israel must belong to someone from the House of David.
  • The Messiah will gather all the Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12, 27:12-13, 43:5-6; Jeremiah 23:8, Jeremiah 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5);
  • The Messiah will restore the Jewish People to full observance of the Torah (Isaiah 2:2-4, Isaiah 11:10, Isaiah 42:1; Jeremiah 33:15);
  • The Messiah will build the Third Temple in Jerusalem (Micah 4:1; Jeremiah 33:18; Ezekiel 37:26-28);
  • THEN the Messianic Era shall begin and the Messiah will be recognized and enthroned as the King of Israel by the Jewish People in the Holy Land; The Hebrew term "mashiach" (messiah) literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach (messiah) is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days. The word "mashiach" does not mean "savior."
  • The Messiah will bring peace to the world and the God of the Jews will be recognized as the only one, true God (Isaiah 2:3-4, Isaiah 11:6; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9); he will end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore" (Isaiah 2:4);
  • The Messiah will spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel (Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5; Zephaniah 3:9-13), which will unite humanity as one. "God will be King over all the world – on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
Messiah - RationalWiki

Good.

Now that you recognise that this is the work of Wendy Doniger, with her view on, 'Judaism's view of the Messiah'. I will answer it using the Tanakh and the Bible (and an interlinear bible and concordance), with a Christian view according to scripture.

Please note, that I will not respond to claims that do not come with supporting scripture; like the first one (The messiah will be totally human). If you or anybody want it answered; I will need a quote on where it has been said in the Tanakh, so that it can be verified to be the word of god.

I will post my response on Thursday the 14th April 2022, the day before Good Friday.
 

Markfs

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so now the Tanakh is as good as the bible.... on it's right hand, you might say...

this reminds me of an SBS story, I think it was, on evangelical tourism to jerusalem. These busloads of conservative evangelicals were being "entertained" by jewish fund-raisers of the so-called settlers on the West bank. It seems that the evangelicals were happy to fund the rightish jews because the bible predicts the coming of the kingdom of god, after palestine is reunited to the shape it was during jesus's time.

It was put to the evangelicals, doesn't the bible predict pretty nasty things happening to the jews in the post second-coming era? Yes, they said, evidently the jews get smashed and many are killed. So the question is asked of the jewish fund-raisers about the new testament prediction. It's ok, they said, as long as they support us with funding, buying stuff etc... lol. I laughed at the time. Talk about pragmatism. And of course, it's the american evangelicals that are putting the most pressure on the american presidents to support israel's attempts to take over the west bank.... who said we should separate politics and religion?

back to the tanakh, apparently the jews dont like it being called the old testament..... it gives the appearance that it's out of date. Should tell that to the evangelicals who endlessly quote from it
 

Roylion

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Now that you recognise that this is the work of Wendy Doniger, with her view on, 'Judaism's view of the Messiah'.

You mean Wendy Doniger, the Distinguished Service Professor of History of Religions at the University of Chicago? Yeah Ok.

Still it's nice to see you finally doing some research.

I will answer it using the Tanakh and the Bible (and an interlinear bible and concordance), with a Christian view according to scripture.

Of course. I expect nothing less than more copious quoting of Christian scripture from the "Tanakh. (i.e the "Old Testament") and the "New Testament". Too bad you don't quote what Biblical historians are saying.

Now if you quote Biblical scripture, make sure you quote the "interlinear Bible and concordance" sites where you cut and paste it from. I wouldn't want you to get in trouble for breach of copyright. :rolleyes:


Please note, that I will not respond to claims that do not come with supporting scripture; like the first one (The messiah will be totally human).

I really don't care if you respond or not. Take note. I'll respond on here as I see fit with what I see fit. Any response I give isn't really for you anyway.

Jews do not believe that Jesus was divine or the "son of God," or the Messiah prophesied in Jewish scripture. He has to be a male descendant of the Tribe of Judea. 2 Samuel 7: 12 and 7: 13 for example

7:12 "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom."

7.13 "He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever."

Both Matthew and Luke agree that Joseph was of the Davidic line, but if he was Jesus' biological father then Jesus is fully human, not some sort of demi-god, fathered by the "Holy Spirit". Or he's not actually the son of Joseph, then he is not of the seed of David as outlined in Samiel 7: 12-13 for example.

Matthew's Gospel was written for Jews and in an effort to convince them Jesus was the 'messiah' had to demonstrate his descent from David to fulfil the 'prophecy'. The earliest Christian writings, the letters of Paul assume Jesus's full humanity, stating that he was "born of a woman" like any other human being and "born under the law" (so the legitimate son of Joseph) like any Jew. (Galatians 4:4)

And then in 2 Timothy 2:8-9

8 Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel,
9 for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal"

The Gospel of John also refers twice to Jesus as the "son of Joseph", the first in John 1:45 "We have found him about whom Moses in the law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus, son of Joseph from Nazareth" and the second from John 6:41 "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose mother and father we know?"

So to be descended from David (via the genealogies outlined in Matthew and Luke, Jesus must have been the son of Joseph and as he was "born of woman" he was "fully human". Or is Paul wrong? If Joseph is Jesus biological father so he can be descended from David, then the Holy Spirit is not Jesus' father as Matthew 1:18 says.

Luke appears to contradict himself. From Luke Chapter 1

"30: The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31: And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus.
32: He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his ancestor David.
33: He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end."
34: Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?"
35: The angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be holy; he will be called Son of God
."


So is Joseph of the House of David, Jesus' father? Or is the Holy Spirit ('god')?

If you are to believe the truth of the Gospel of Matthew then Jesus was portrayed as the 'messiah' (the King of the Jews) and when Pilate asked Jesus if he was, he did not deny it. Therefore as only the Romans though they could decide who was 'King of the Jews', any possible troublemaker / possible claimant to Judea had to be got rid of, something the Jewish authorities weren't averse to. The Romans therefore executed him on a Roman charge via a Roman punishment. (i.e. a criminal)

If you or anybody want it answered; I will need a quote on where it has been said in the Tanakh, so that it can be verified to be the word of god.

I don't believe the Tanakh or the Gospels (or indeed any book of the New or Old Testament) is the 'word of god'.

I will post my response on Thursday the 14th April 2022, the day before Good Friday.

So you are going to continue the 'conversation', despite saying you weren't. :rolleyes:

The 'ignore' button isn't that difficult to find is it? What about the 'report' button?

The day before Good Friday. Great. If you need that long to do your research so be it.
 
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Vdubs

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i must admit that I have always thought that the christians on here were cheating with regards copyright, because they were able to consult with god before they posted... i have to rely on my own skills
Even if we cite well written and researched Christian articles we are lambasted, but Roy and TP can quote prolifically from their anti Christian friends with impunity; and we can not quote the Word of God because they don't believe in it, unless it suits their arguments; AND WE CAN NOT QUOTE FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OR FAITH BECAUSE.....
So to conclude, we are here to reply to the statements made by TP, not questions, and Roy is here with a historical bent to repudiate everything we express that relies on faith and scripture.
Stalemate.
Yet all parties concerned continue to engage, albeit disparagingly according to TP.
 
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Rosscoe

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You mean Wendy Doniger, the Distinguished Service Professor of History of Religions at the University of Chicago? Yeah Ok.

Still it's nice to see you finally doing some research.



Of course. I expect nothing less than more copious quoting of Christian scripture from the "Tanakh. (i.e the "Old Testament") and the "New Testament". Too bad you don't quote what Biblical historians are saying.

Now if you quote Biblical scripture, make sure you quote the "interlinear Bible and concordance" sites where you cut and paste it from. I wouldn't want you to get in trouble for breach of copyright. :rolleyes:




I really don't care if you respond or not. Take note. I'll respond on here as I see fit with what I see fit. Any response I give isn't really for you anyway.

Jews do not believe that Jesus was divine or the "son of God," or the Messiah prophesied in Jewish scripture. He has to be a male descendant of the Tribe of Judea. 2 Samuel 7: 12 and 7: 13 for example

7:12 "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom."

7.13 "He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever."

Both Matthew and Luke agree that Joseph was of the Davidic line, but if he was Jesus' biological father then Jesus is fully human, not some sort of demi-god, fathered by the "Holy Spirit". Or he's not actually the son of Joseph, then he is not of the seed of David as outlined in Samiel 7: 12-13 for example.

Matthew's Gospel was written for Jews and in an effort to convince them Jesus was the 'messiah' had to demonstrate his descent from David to fulfil the 'prophecy'. The earliest Christian writings, the letters of Paul assume Jesus's full humanity, stating that he was "born of a woman" like any other human being and "born under the law" (so the legitimate son of Joseph) like any Jew. (Galatians 4:4)

And then in 2 Timothy 2:8-9

8 Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel,
9 for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal"

The Gospel of John also refers twice to Jesus as the "son of Joseph", the first in John 1:45 "We have found him about whom Moses in the law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus, son of Joseph from Nazareth" and the second from John 6:41 "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose mother and father we know?"

So to be descended from David (via the genealogies outlined in Matthew and Luke, Jesus must have been the son of Joseph and as he was "born of woman" he was "fully human". Or is Paul wrong? If Joseph is Jesus biological father so he can be descended from David, then the Holy Spirit is not Jesus' father as Matthew 1:18 says.

Luke appears to contradict himself. From Luke Chapter 1

"30: The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31: And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus.
32: He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his ancestor David.
33: He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end."
34: Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?"
35: The angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be holy; he will be called Son of God
."


So is Joseph of the House of David, Jesus' father? Or is the Holy Spirit ('god')?

If you are to believe the truth of the Gospel of Matthew then Jesus was portrayed as the 'messiah' (the King of the Jews) and when Pilate asked Jesus if he was, he did not deny it. Therefore as only the Romans though they could decide who was 'King of the Jews', any possible troublemaker / possible claimant to Judea had to be got rid of, something the Jewish authorities weren't averse to. The Romans therefore executed him on a Roman charge via a Roman punishment. (i.e. a criminal)



I don't believe the Tanakh or the Gospels (or indeed any book of the New or Old Testament) is the 'word of god'.



So you are going to continue the 'conversation', despite saying you weren't. :rolleyes:

The 'ignore' button isn't that difficult to find is it? What about the 'report' button?

The day before Good Friday. Great. If you need that long to do your research so be it.

Just leave it to the professionals pal.
 

Opine

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Vdubs

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so now the Tanakh is as good as the bible.... on it's right hand, you might say...

this reminds me of an SBS story, I think it was, on evangelical tourism to jerusalem. These busloads of conservative evangelicals were being "entertained" by jewish fund-raisers of the so-called settlers on the West bank. It seems that the evangelicals were happy to fund the rightish jews because the bible predicts the coming of the kingdom of god, after palestine is reunited to the shape it was during jesus's time.

It was put to the evangelicals, doesn't the bible predict pretty nasty things happening to the jews in the post second-coming era? Yes, they said, evidently the jews get smashed and many are killed. So the question is asked of the jewish fund-raisers about the new testament prediction. It's ok, they said, as long as they support us with funding, buying stuff etc... lol. I laughed at the time. Talk about pragmatism. And of course, it's the american evangelicals that are putting the most pressure on the american presidents to support israel's attempts to take over the west bank.... who said we should separate politics and religion?

back to the tanakh, apparently the jews dont like it being called the old testament..... it gives the appearance that it's out of date. Should tell that to the evangelicals who endlessly quote from it
The NT is senseless without the background OT. Simple.
There would be no NT without the OT.
BUT, one does not benefit from, or need meticulous adherence to every tenet of the OT. Only nitpickers get their lollies from that. It is for Christians, used as an incredible description of the power of God and the struggles He had with His people, and as a basic set of guidelines as to what pleases God. We do not need to adhere to it word by word.
 
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Roylion

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Just leave it to the professionals pal.

Well that's certainly not you.

Wendy Doniger, the Distinguished Service Professor of History of Religions at the University of Chicago definitely is though.

So you're still continuing the 'conversation', despite saying you weren't. :rolleyes:

The 'ignore' button isn't that difficult to find is it? What about the 'report' button?
 

carltonchelsea

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What did you expect? You’ve trolled to debase.
I think like most good non-believers, we wanted to grow up to be, be a….

Don’t know about you
But I am Un Chien Andalusia
That lyric, oh wowee and the music to just kill it.
Probably my fave song, seen them several times and met him in So Cal in the 90’s, I think I pee’d a bit in my pantaloons.
 

carltonchelsea

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The NT is senseless without the background OT. Simple.
There would be no NT without the OT.
BUT, one does not benefit from, or need meticulous adherence to every tenet of the OT. Only nitpickers get their lollies from that. It is for Christians, used as an incredible description of the power of God and the struggles He had with His people, and as a basic set of guidelines as to what pleases God. We do not need to adhere to it word by word.
Is gay sex an abomination?
 

Total Power

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Even if we cite well written and researched Christian articles we are lambasted, but Roy and TP can quote prolifically from their anti Christian friends with impunity; and we can not quote the Word of God because they don't believe in it, unless it suits their arguments; AND WE CAN NOT QUOTE FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OR FAITH BECAUSE.....
So to conclude, we are here to reply to the statements made by TP, not questions, and Roy is here with a historical bent to repudiate everything we express that relies on faith and scripture.
Stalemate.
Yet all parties concerned continue to engage, albeit it disparagingly according to TP.

You call your articles 'well researched'? All we ask you to do is to justify your point of view and the statements you make, like YWH not being Jesus. You ran away with tail between your legs after copy pasting a few articles cause i destroyed all of it? Of course Christians WILL BELIEVE the messiah is mentioned in the OT. That's the entire point of NT. The Gospel writers invented stories to make it Jesus fit into the narrative, like dying for our sins. There is no NT without it. Just like Christians believe Christ is coming again blah blah. The Bible says it's true hence it must be true. Christians also believe ressuraction story is the first, Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, Moses story is original. Must be true then? Why don't you think the Jews believe Jesus is the Messiah? OT is a Jewish book yet Jews dont believe Jesus is the one. Unfortunately no one outside Christianity believes this, which means 5 billion people.

I explained it to you why you can't quote personal anecdotes. You can quote personal anecdotes as long as you acknowledge other religions have the exact same anecdotes and gotten the exact same result. Hinduism has 1.3 billion followers and survived a lot longer than Christianity despite colonial attempt to destroy it. Are you saying all these people are deluded? Are you saying Islam, which will be the biggest religion in the world in 20 years is ***** ? of course you are, cause only your anecdotes are right and everyone else is deluded.

There is nothing 'well reseached' about your articles, articles from 'faith' are never 'researched'. It's always about reverse engineering. This is the reason why religion always depends on the place you are born, if Jesus would appear once to people in Saudi Arabia, it will destroy Islam. All Jesus needs to do is appear in front of people in India and it will destroy Hinduism, but it's always the Christians who already believe is getting the results.

Please don't mention 'well research' and your articles. I quote secular historians scholars, not 'atheist' scholars, maybe look up on what 'bias' is? If i quote a Muslim scholar on Islam, what you think this conclusion going to be?
 
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Roylion

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Roy and TP can quote prolifically from their anti Christian friends with impunity; and we can not quote the Word of God because they don't believe in it, unless it suits their arguments; AND WE CAN NOT QUOTE FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OR FAITH BECAUSE.....

I've made it very clear that I do not accept scripture as inerrant, nor as the 'word of god'. I see no reason to accept the contents of the Old Testament or the New Testament as the 'word of god'. You can add the Quran to that as well.

However if apologists continue to quote copious amounts of Scripture as an argument for their position, then expect some to be quoted back. That is not to say that quoting Scripture somehow implies that we regard such Scripture is either inerrant or the 'word of god'. Usually if I quote Scrpture I try and place it in the context of the time or make some commentary what expert Biblical scholars say about that scripture, either by paraphrasing their comments or by providing a direct quote from their work/s. I have done this often.

As I said, those scholars look at the context of the events described (which are argued as historical and which Christians claim as truth) the agenda of the Gospel writers, engage in textual analysis (structure of sentences, use of verbs in the original language that the Gospel was writtten to determined the background of the possible writer) as well as look for corroborating external evidence such as archaeological artifacts and other contemporary writings to ascertain the probability of a described event being historical.

Even other contemporous Gospels that weren't included in the canon are examined closely by experts in various fields.


Roy is here with a historical bent to repudiate everything we express that relies on faith and scripture.

What is to regarded as historical relies on the provision of supporting evidence not faith. If you claim an event as 'truth' we can only presume that you also regard it as historical. I dispute some of what you say is historical and attempt to say why.
 

Roylion

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There is nothing 'well reseached' about your articles, articles from 'faith' are never 'researched'.

And often only quotes Scripture as 'evidence'. For example "Such and such gospel clearly says...." and this borne out by this verse from the Book of x".

The essential argument being of course that scripture is inerrant, and is undoubtedly the 'word of god'.
 

Vdubs

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And often only quotes Scripture as 'evidence'. For example "Such and such gospel clearly says...." and this borne out by this verse from the Book of x".

The essential argument being of course that scripture is inerrant, and is undoubtedly the 'word of god'.
And if it is?
 

Total Power

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And if it is?

Your mate above had a fit cause Roy apparently quotes website without references. Where do you think Genesis story came from? Half of Jesus' quotes came from? Love thy neighbour, turn the other cheek came from? It's clearly not original. I have produced substantial evidence here and you dismissed it without addressing my points. It's ok to copy paste if you are writing the 'Word of God'
 

Roylion

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And if it is?

There's no evidence that it is. That it is is believed by nothing more than faith. It's just another unsubstantiated claim. I see nothing to suppose that the Bible is anything more than a man-made collection of ancient literature, constructed across centuries. It's appears to be no more the 'word of God' than the Quran is.
 

Vdubs

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You call your articles 'well researched'? All we ask you to do is to justify your point of view and the statements you make, like YWH not being Jesus. You ran away with tail between your legs after copy pasting a few articles cause i destroyed all of it? Of course Christians WILL BELIEVE the messiah is mentioned in the OT. That's the entire point of NT. The Gospel writers invented stories to make it Jesus fit into the narrative, like dying for our sins. There is no NT without it. Just like Christians believe Christ is coming again blah blah. The Bible says it's true hence it must be true. Christians also believe ressuraction story is the first, Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, Moses story is original. Must be true then? Why don't you think the Jews believe Jesus is the Messiah? OT is a Jewish book yet Jews dont believe Jesus is the one. Unfortunately no one outside Christianity believes this, which means 5 billion people.

I explained it to you why you can't quote personal anecdotes. You can quote personal anecdotes as long as you acknowledge other religions have the exact same anecdotes and gotten the exact same result. Hinduism has 1.3 billion followers and survived a lot longer than Christianity despite colonial attempt to destroy it. Are you saying all these people are deluded? Are you saying Islam, which will be the biggest religion in the world in 20 years is ***** ? of course you are, cause only your anecdotes are right and everyone else is deluded.

There is nothing 'well reseached' about your articles, articles from 'faith' are never 'researched'. It's always about reverse engineering. This is the reason why religion always depends on the place you are born, if Jesus would appear once to people in Saudi Arabia, it will destroy Islam. All Jesus needs to do is appear in front of people in India and it will destroy Hinduism, but it's always the Christians who already believe is getting the results.

Please don't mention 'well research' and your articles. I quote secular historians scholars, not 'atheist' scholars, maybe look up on what 'bias' is? If i quote a Muslim scholar on Islam, what you think this conclusion going to be?
I have NEVER said a word against the beliefs of Islam etc. You ask me to, and I will not and can not.
I have said time after time, GOD, if you believe in GOD, I DO, will judge ALL believers according to the integrity of their faith.
I have quoted that the Bible says the way to God is by accepting Jesus is His Son. That is what we believe. That is all we can state as Christians. We can not say that all those other billions are incorrect- we can not be that arrogant or self-righteous, but you put down words as if that's what we believe, then get angry with the words you put down.
As you have often rightly said, those people born BC, and those who have never heard of Jesus, and those who are loyal and sincere Muslims etc. should all have claims to eternal life with God after death, if that is what happens. I can only speak for what Christians encounter, and it as real for us as possible.
As you say, if a follower of Islam has the same enlightenment, good for him, I can make no comment.
I still maintain there is only one God- call Him what you like as long as it is not blasphemy.
 

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