Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2

[Chief]

Continued in Part Two:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ask-a-christian-part-2.1295001/unread

 

[Vdubs]

I didn't ask you to make an assessment about me, this is 'Ask a Christian' thread. FWIW , i call out hypocrites when i see it. Of course you talk about 2 billion people all the time, how it's the most popular religion. You talk about missionaries. And i told you time and time again missionaries are business organisations that simply won't exist if there was no 'deal' available for them. As an ex-christan i have been with them, i have seenn them and i know how you guys operate, remember the Great commission that the catholic church included when they tampered with the Bible?

Christians been brutal throughout history, you guys have destroyed wealth and culture and killed innocents like no one else, in history. So when you post contribution of christianity to the society, make sure to mention that too.

Assessment made anyway.
I don't need to mention your points- you've done it so often.
How we guys operate? Whatever organisation you have been involved with- and however it affected you- you think it's fair to use your experience to besmirch all other believers? There are bad eggs everywhere.

 

[Vdubs]

Clearly morals come from within. Good people do good things, bad people do bad things, religious people do horrible things.

Good, bad and religious? Wow, you are something else.

 

[Total Power]

Assessment made anyway.

You clearly have no idea about me and my life and my experiences. Based on a few posts on figbooty, you made a judgement on me. I am not surprised though, you god botherers need to pass judgement, you guys just can;t help yourself acting like a tool, based on bullshit assumptions even. Hurt i am not, you can say , i am proud of being an ex-Christian, i was young and stupid to know lifes choice, but then i learned science, history and critical thinking. As i said as soon as i left Christianity, my life improved dramatically. I am successful in almost everything! good health great family, successful businenss.. whatelse does a person want?

I don't need to mention your points- you've done it so often.

And you haven't presented a single defence outside of 'i have faith'. Duh, no s**t.

How we guys operate? Whatever organisation you have been involved with- and however it affected you- you think it's fair to use your experience to besmirch all other believers? There are bad eggs everywhere.

Bad eggs? show me a good egg, why won't you? Have you been to the vatican? there is poverty while you enter and exit the Vatican, people sleeping rough, old women begging, Children homeless, yet Vatican is holding 100 billion worth assets enough to end world hunger, you truly think they want to do good to mankind outside of preaching what they believe in? They are only interested in gathering wealth as long as it serves their purpose, they have done that throughout history. When have the Vactican soold their possessions for the poor? When have the Vatican help a homeless Muslim without thinking of conversion?

I presented how colonialism have destroyed the world and missionaries go hand in hand with colonialism. There wouldn't be so much destruction, devastation, death and misery if it wasn't for the Christian invaders into our lands. It's not my experience at all, it's history. You have not addressed the post above about how missionaries played a vital role in conversion and establishment of colonial government yet you are crying foul again. You clearly are either 1. Ignorant of Christian history or 2. Ashamed of it hence you refuse to admit that Christianity been brutal along with Islam like no other ideology.

Sure few good things been done as well, but at what cost? Are you surely going to argue the cultural genocide, ethnic cleansing and mass genocide that has been caused due to your violent ideology?

And before you ask again about your faith...yes i have a problem with your faith.

Holding positions incongruent with reality is problematic. Beliefs lead to actions. Actions incongruent with reality lead to, at best, problematic and inconsistent and unpredictable results. More often, they lead to harmful, hurtful, damaging, and destructive consequences.

For example, people holding the incorrect belief that vaccines are harmful are killing children by the thousands. People holding the incorrect belief that various watered down nonsense medicine can cure cancer is, again, killing people.

more specific to believing religious mythologies, people holding the belief that using protective birth control, thanks to extreme and constant efforts by the Catholic Church, is sinful is killing millions in Africa due to AIDS. People holding the incorrect belief that engaging in homosexuality is sinful is harming millions of teens in various emotional and social ways, and killing thousands or millions more due to suicide. People holding the incorrect belief that their deity sanctions and commands killing others for the glory of their deity are demonstrably being horrible, immoral, and evil. You get the picture. People holding the incorrect belief that their deity said 'X' when it is demonstrable that 'Y' is the case leads to problems. Of all manner. Big and small.

Since people are going to act on their beliefs, and those beliefs are rooted in faith, there is literally no way to keep one's faith to oneself. If you keep it to yourself i have no problems with it, but this will never happen.

Faith is used as an excuse to justify literally anything. ANYTHING! As i said good people do good things, bad people do bad things but religious people do horrible things as witnessed by 1,000 year history of colonial occupation and cultural genocide of many (once) rich cultures, simply because they worshipped a different God. Which is 'RIGHT' to you, cause your God is the only true God, the rest deserve sentence for Blasphemy.

 

[Total Power]

Good, bad and religious? Wow, you are something else.

Truth hurts?

It's clear that religious people have a history of violence and intolerance throughout the world. While Communism is the same, Communism is young and been found out and rejected for the atrocities it has committed, religion on the other hand is still widely accepted, cause of you know what, 'God said....'

Once one accepts things as true without evidence, then one can immediately justify any action. Any.

Throughout written history, and probably before, religion has been used as justification for slavery, for war, for subjugation of women, for human sacrifice, and any number of horrible things. Frankly, I'm not sure how you could even challenge this? You yourself have defended, rape, murder, torture in OT by saying 'god has plans' for people. You have justified the worst attrocities based on your belief that God is Kind and merciful.

What's wrong about it is not content. That is what makes this whole thing so difficult to deal with. I'm totally even willing to accept that you have your heart in the right place, you're a warm and kind friend, help others, and this may very well be due to your religion.

But that's based on a flawed method. It is a bad reason for being that way.

Unfortunately, human history has shown that nefarious folks can and do use this against people.

You can read pretty much whatever you like into old sacred texts. As long as your guiding principle for finding truth is "god told me so", "the spirit made me feel it", "I felt the presence of the lord", etc, that is completely arbitrary. The next guy can "know" the exact opposite, and be equally right, and the two of you can start throwing rocks at each other -- to absolutely no avail. You are just as right as he is. You can base christian agape on it just as much as racism, homophobia, witch-hunts. As history shows...

I maintain that we have exactly two facilities to help us solve our differences: Empathy, and rationality. Nothing more, nothing less. We need to train those two. We can train those two.

I think that religion, simply by virtue of its reliance upon supernatural inspiration and flawed thinking, tends to take away from both. Therefore, religion needs to be abandoned, right now.

Seneca the Younger reminded us that:

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful."

There is nothing at all good that humans can do that can do and is being done through secular means without the trappings of mythology. However, to get a good person to do bad things, that takes religion. I have presented whole host of evidence from Colonialism above, maybe you wish to read my post one more time?

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

What if it was? He has allowed Covid-19, and numerous other plagues. We are guaranteed nothing but death ultimately. It's just the when, and how that remains to be seen.

Your god strikes me as useless.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

But that has been forced on them by the Spanish invaders, there is a story on how the Catholic church destroyed their own religion (Anoism, Hinduism and Buddhism).

Oh absolutely. I repeat, I’m not disagreeing with the point you were making. But a takeup rate of +90% suggests it well satisfies something in the Filipino psyche.

 

[Total Power]

Oh absolutely. I repeat, I’m not disagreeing with the point you were making. But a takeup rate of +90% suggests it well satisfies something in the Filipino psyche.

Same applies to Africa or the black slaves in the US. Hardly the point i am trying to make here though.

 

[chelseacarlton]

Of course.
They pointed to the coming and death of Jesus, and He has made them redundant, unlike the 10 Commandments, which are very much relevant for us all today. Not to say we should behave in a manner opposite to those ceremonial Mosaic laws, but Jesus is the ultimate manifestation of God's grace.

 

[Vdubs]

The 10 Commandments aren't so great anyway if you look at them in detail:

The first few are religious laws: Thou shalt not worship any other gods, thou shalt not make any graven images or likeness, thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain, remember the Sabbath day. None of these are strictly necessary or relevant in our day and age. We pretty much ignore all four of these in one way or another.

So that's 4 out of 10 you can scrub. Of the 6 left I'd call the some "recommended" and some "no brainers".

The recommended ones are honouring your father and mother, not committing adultery and not coveting your neighbour's stuff. So that's half of the rest we can live with or without, so not really absolutely vital.

The 3 "no brainers": I'd call don't kill, don't steal and don't give false testimony against your neighbour. But these are such no brainers they'd be on the list for any society if you sat down and tried to write a list from scratch.

So, of the 10 commandments I'd call 3 of them very good but totally obvious. There's some that are recommended, and the rest are just pointless.

A score of 3/10 isn't great.

Your issue admittedly!

Not worshipping other gods- a critical commandment God abhors this and you have seen what He did in OT days.
Graven images.. maybe not that relevant nowadays.
Taking His name in vain. Why do it if there is no belief in His existence.
The Sabbath. Taking a day out for repose and repair, and to acknowledge our Creator- we are all guilty of not doing this, but it is to our detriment
The next 6, agreed.
The commandments basically give us rules for
1.our relationship with God- Vertical
2.our relationships with people- Horizontal
All very important.

 

[Roylion]

Not worshipping other gods- a critical commandment God abhors this and you have seen what He did in OT days.

Well he didn't do a great deal really. Many of the great civilisations of those times worshipped a multitude of gods.

Taking His name in vain. Why do it if there is no belief in His existence.

"That bit of halibut was good enough for Jehovah."

 

[Vdubs]

View attachment 1038920View attachment 1038921

We have a God who has given us all free will. Clearly, we all prefer to have free will. Many on this board actually enjoy what Christians regard as sin.
Sin has its consequences, be in no doubt about that.
He has given us the Commandments to live by, and the grace to come to Him.
Grace= God's Riches At Christ's Expense.

 

[Roylion]

Sin has its consequences, make no doubt about that.

Bad consequences?

 

[Total Power]

We have a God who has given us all free will. Clearly, we all prefer to have free will. Many on this board actually enjoy what Christians regard as sin.
Sin has its consequences, make no doubt about that.
He has given us the Commandments to live by, and the grace to come to Him.
Grace= God's Riches At Christ's Expense.

Wait, so God creates us with 'sin' and then makes us sinful and then punishes us for being sinful cause we didn't repent for the way he created us? How is free-will truly a free will if he knows the choices we will make in life? how is it free will if he can't worship another god without being accused of blasphemy. It sounds like free-will has lots of terms and conditions attached to it specially when your God doesn't the attention he wants.

 

[Vdubs]

Wait, so God creates us with 'sin' and then makes us sinful and then punishes us for being sinful cause we didn't repent for the way he created us? How is free-will truly a free will if he knows the choices we will make in life? how is it free will if he can't worship another god without being accused of blasphemy. It sounds like free-will has lots of terms and conditions attached to it specially when your God doesn't the attention he wants.

Good and often-asked questions.
Go for GRACE- you can not lose.

 

[Total Power]

Good and often-asked questions.
Go for GRACE- you can not lose.

How is there any GRACE in killing people for worshipping another deity?

 

[indoistriku]

View attachment 1038920

This is a ridiculous quote. Very clearly, each of the Ten Commandments encompass more and condemn more than they seem to on their surface level. That this is true is undeniably shown in the Sermon on the Mount in the Gospel of St. Matthew, in which Jesus explicates the deeper meaning of each commandment. God forbids not only murder in the fifth commandment, but any unjust killing. Further than that, however, He also forbids hating your neighbour, denying them comfort and support of body when necessary, and not assisting your neighbour when you can. Let's go through each point raised by Pollitt.

- War: See the doctrine of 'just war'. War, in itself, isn't inherently bad, if it is waged in the righteous defence of the weak and needy. Unjust violence in all forms is forbidden in the fifth commandment.

- Tyranny: If she means tyranny by violent oppression, the fifth commandment forbids it. If she meant government theft (no, not taxes) of property, the seventh commandment forbids it. I'm not entirely sure what she has in mind when she mentions "tyranny". If she had in mind a regime similar to that of the Kim Dynasty in North Korea, again, the fifth and seventh commandments forbid individual acts of sin, whether performed by government or person.

- Taking Over Other People's Countries: See war and tyranny. If taking over another's country unjustly by force, that is forbidden by the fifth and seventh commandments, respectively.

- Exploitation of workers: is forbidden by the seventh commandment. Again, she hasn't explicated exactly what she means by the phrase "exploitation of workers". Does she mean financial exploitation of workers? Clearly forbidden in Scripture: "Do not defraud or rob your neighbor. Do not hold back the wages of a hired worker overnight". Does she mean unjustly over working them? "There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a sabbath to the Lord."

- Cruelty to children: This is ridiculous. Obviously the Bible condemns cruelty to children: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven." And "Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you." Also "Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged." Finally "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."

- Wife beating: Again, the Bible is so clear on the role of a husband toward his wife. He is to love his wife as "Christ loved the church". In what way did Christ love the church? Permit me to argue from the standpoint the the Christian God exists. If so, and by His standard, He could've justly condemned all men. He did not have to show mercy, bu was compelled to do so due to His loving nature. Christ, rather than coming into the world to condemn the world, subjected Himself to His own creation, died at their hands, and all for the sake of justifying all sinners. So, husbands, if they love their wives, will not beat them. Clearly. It's a sin againt the fifth commandment. Husbands are to lovingly submit to their wives' desires and the serve them, and not act as boorish brutes toward them. She needs (if she is still alive) read all the parts of the Bible which address the role of husbands toward their wives.

- Stoning: God permits stoning as a form of capital punishment.

- Treating women...as inferior: Anyone who believes that the Bible permits a man to treat a woman as inferior has clearly not read the sections of the Bible that describe the manner in which men should behave around and toward women. Men are to submit to their wives in love (Eph. 5:21). Husbands are to lead their wives in sacrificial service, not in selfish power (Eph. 5:31). Men are to serve their wives, as Christ served humanity (Matt. 20:28). Men are to be humble toward women (Phil. 2:8-9). God forbids the objectification of women (Matt. 5:28-29).

In the Bible, women are a very special part of God's creation. The Hebrew for 'men' is a generic term. Similar to how we in English will often use the term 'man' or 'men' in a universal, gender-neutral manner; "all men have been redeemed by Christ". In Hebrew, the term for 'woman' is a special type of the generic 'man'. For example, all wines are wine. But only Barossa Valley wine is that special type of Barossa Valley wine. All soft-drinks are a form of sodas. Only Coke is that special type of soft drink, and as such, has a very specifc named attached to communicate as much. It is so with women. God demands men to protect and serve the women in their. Men are imbued with physical superior strength (generally) in order that, not that they would dominate women, but protect, defend and 'do the heavy lifting' for the women in their lives. Mary, beside Jesus, is the most respected and highly regard human being in the Bible.

All Bible quotes taken from the NIV, Zondervan Publishing House, 2011.

 

[Vdubs]

How is there any GRACE in killing people for worshipping another deity?

Grace is accepting God's gift to us in Jesus.
You can accept or reject His offer. Your choice.
You chose Jesus, so you say, now you reject Him.
Guess who has moved... certainly not Jesus.

 

[Total Power]

Grace is accepting God's gift to us in Jesus.
You can accept or reject His offer. Your choice.

It doesn't seem to the case, in OT god has committed genocide against several tribes who worshipped "false" deities. So where is the free will?

 

[Vdubs]

It doesn't seem to the case, in OT god has committed genocide against several tribes who worshipped "false" deities. So where is the free will?

We are not Christians because of OT teachings, but we can accept the OT teachings as part of God's power and his dealings with recurrently sinful people.

 

[Total Power]

We are not Christians because of OT teachings, but we can accept the OT teachings as part of God's power and his dealings with recurrently sinful people.

But according to you we are all massive sinners, so some are more than me, some are less than me. Why kill an entire tribe for choosing their own deity?

 

[Vdubs]

But according to you we are all massive sinners, so some are more than me, some are less than me. Why kill an entire tribe for choosing their own deity?

Why worry about this now?



You have been advised about His Commandments.
But

 

[Total Power]

Why worry about this now?

You have been advised about His Commandments.
But

Way to avoid answering my questions, a product with a manufacturing defect is showing signs of being defective....but then you blame the product for being defective. If we are all sinful, we should commit sins, that's the way we are created, the fact that the whole tribe should be killed cause they didn't repent, is not free will at all. Yet again you cannot justify your faith.

 

[Vdubs]

Way to avoid answering my questions, a product with a manufacturing defect is showing signs of being defective....but when you blame the product for being defective. If we are all sinful, we should commit sins, that's the way we are created, the fact that the whole tribe should be killed cause they didn't repent, is not free will at all. Yet again you cannot justify your faith.

I don't have to,
but I have faith that you may eventually regain yours. You have enough doubts and questions...
Music is a panacea.
Those songs are appropriate anyway. Enjoy.

 

[Total Power]

I don't have to,
but I have faith that you may eventually regain yours. You have enough doubts and questions...
Music is a panacea.
Those songs are appropriate anyway. Enjoy.

If you are not going to answer questions then why bother? i asked a valid question, if you are going to reply with nonsensical irrelevant stuff, refrain from answering. I am not here to listen to music.

 

[Vdubs]

If you are not going to answer questions then why bother? i asked a valid question, if you are going to reply with nonsensical irrelevant stuff, refrain from answering. I am not here to listen to music.

I have answered your questions ad nauseum; you have an insatiable appetite for impossible questions. You refuse to accept the Ten Commandments- it is all there. I am happy to accept them; you worry about them (hence the song). Being a Christian is liberating in that sense. I Don't stress about this dogma that bothers you. There is plenty of pain, particularly as we live even right now.