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Total Power

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we can and do both.
Why can't we maximise life as a born again Christian?
What are we missing out on?
Sport?
Food?
Employment?
Fun?
SCIENCE is not just relevant to atheists, DITTO TECNOLOGY, OR MODERN MEDICINE.
CHRISTIANS PRAY TO GOD FOR (SIGNIFICANT) MEDICAL ISSUES, AND PART OF THAT RESPONSE IS TO SEEK OUT THE OPTIMAL TREATMENTS KNOWN TO MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS - we should pray unceasingly for all things, tbh, not just petitions, but also thanksgiving.

Your pov of Christianity is pretty morose. That is not how we live. Repentance is actually liberating if you are trapped by recurrent sin. Many addicts have had their lives transformed, and you will say - just gone from one addiction to another in the form of Christianity- but that is so far from reality.
You missed the entire point, i don't mean you cant live without enjoying life. Everyone has their own definition of what enjoyment is, however there is one non-negotiable for me and that is conscience.

Because the idea of a God would have no use if you couldn't control people through fear. Over thousands of years religion was pushed to legitimatize kings, obedience and violence.

You can all those things you listed but what you can't do is live freely, which is the most important thing in life, live true to your conscience. You believe you will be going to hell if you don't follow your deity, this is not living freely, nor living according to your conscience. I am truly free you are not. I have my own sense of morality which stems from empathy.

I think a question people should ask themselves within Christianity is... if there was no Heaven or promise of eternity would you still choose to follow the God of the Bible? I'd wager that the majority of Christians only believe out of the fear of Hell. Many will try to dress it up and make it look like that isn't the case but in my experience it ALMOST always the case.
 

Total Power

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God decides who lives. Simple fact.
We know we will all die.
I can only assume that the fact I am still alive, God has not yet finished with me in this life. To each day, I am thankful, and that is how i start each day- a prayer of thanks.
There have always been doctors in some form, and this has EVOLVED in sophistication over the centuries.
Hitler was mid 50's when he suicided- not a long life. Eddie Jaku is over 100yo.
Cool, so atheists in Scandinavia have the highest life expectancy in the world.

Some of the devout Christian nations in Africa are the lowest.

You should thank materialist science for your life and not God. You are lucky to be born in a secular country where religion is irrelevant.
 

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Total Power

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explain your confident assertion please.
It's worse than that.

Why would anyone worship something that operated this way (the way you described, like cursing adam and eve, original sin, encouraging slavery, rape of virgin women, killing children for the sin of their fathers, calling atheists as wicked, eternal damnnation etc)? Something that allows so much needless pain and suffering. Something so narcissistic that you must love him else face eternal damnation. Something that would communicate its message in such a broken, mistranslated, self-contradicting, easily misunderstood way?

A better question is when do we wage war?

OR, we can just realize that all that fluff is made up, out of fear of death, loneliness, and ignorance. This is all there is. Given a long enough timeline, nothing really matters. Enjoy yourself without hurting or taking from others. Pay it forward and help future generations by leaving the place better than you found it. Amen lol
 

Vdubs

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You missed the entire point, i don't mean you cant live without enjoying life. Everyone has their own definition of what enjoyment is, however there is one non-negotiable for me and that is conscience.

Because the idea of a God would have no use if you couldn't control people through fear. Over thousands of years religion was pushed to legitimatize kings, obedience and violence.

You can all those things you listed but what you can't do is live freely, which is the most important thing in life, live true to your conscience. You believe you will be going to hell if you don't follow your deity, this is not living freely, nor living according to your conscience. I am truly free you are not. I have my own sense of morality which stems from empathy.

I think a question people should ask themselves within Christianity is... if there was no Heaven or promise of eternity would you still choose to follow the God of the Bible? I'd wager that the majority of Christians only believe out of the fear of Hell. Many will try to dress it up and make it look like that isn't the case but in my experience it ALMOST always the case.

Good question.
I really don't understand the concept of heaven, and what happens here to a rejuvenated earth and to the people promised the kingdom of heaven when Jesus does return.
But I do believe in God creating all things, and that He always was.
I can not imagine our level of sophistication being purely due to evolution, albeit the fact that there has indeed been significant evolution to get us here.

You say that your sense of morality stems from empathy. That is not unique to you, and indeed most people would regard that as part of their modus operandi.
But you can't empathise in all situations.
And I certainly know in my own case, having a relationship with Jesus/God has heightened my sense of conscience on a moment by moment basis. Of course I still sin, but it doesn't own me.
 

Vdubs

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Cool, so atheists in Scandinavia have the highest life expectancy in the world.

Some of the devout Christian nations in Africa are the lowest.

You should thank materialist science for your life and not God. You are lucky to be born in a secular country where religion is irrelevant.
All of that may be true.
Has no impact on the reality of God, or having faith in Him, imho.
 

Total Power

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Good question.
I really don't understand the concept of heaven, and what happens here to a rejuvenated earth and to the people promised the kingdom of heaven when Jesus does return.
But I do believe in God creating all things, and that He always was.
I can not imagine our level of sophistication being purely due to evolution, albeit the fact that there has indeed been significant evolution to get us here.

You say that your sense of morality stems from empathy. That is not unique to you, and indeed most people would regard that as part of their modus operandi.
But you can't empathise in all situations.
And I certainly know in my own case, having a relationship with Jesus/God has heightened my sense of conscience on a moment by moment basis. Of course I still sin, but it doesn't own me.
I am sure you are a good person but is it cause of your belief? Would you call me wicked if i am an atheist? you wouldn't despite the God of Bible (NT even) calls me wicked but today none are silly enough to judge a person based on their choice of belief, so you already know this part of the Bible is nonsense, that's progress for me, stemming from your conscience (not god given).

The point being that if someone is not sufficiently convinced of a thing, they are literally incapable of choosing to believe it.

Can you by sheer force of will, force yourself to believe that the earth is flat? No? Of course not, because the evidence of it has not been sufficient to convince you of it's truth.

Thus the absurdity of judging someone for not believing a thing like the Christian God's existence when that person was never presented with sufficient evidence for them to find themselves convinced. Unless, of course, you find that, even though you are convinced that flat earth society's is 100% wrong, yet can still choose to believe like they do anyway.
 

Total Power

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All of that may be true.
Has no impact on the reality of God, or having faith in Him, imho.
You said God decides everything. Where is the evidence that belief in Jesus or having a relationship with Jesus improves lives? Outside of personal anecdotes of well to do white people from first world countries or priviledged people in 3rd world countries? why don't you look at the Top 10 happiest country in the world and tell me which one is majority Christian? NONE. We have Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland , Denmark all in the top 10 who are 90%+ atheist. They are also the richest per capita, their lifestyle is also amongst the best the world, they have empathy, they share and care, they have built a model society for everyone to look up to where poverty and misery is non existent (almost), all for an atheistic country. So no God is needed without having to kill each other, without having to steal, rape, murder, have slaves etc right?

So where is your evidence that Christians are better off? So no God is necessary to build a model society? right? now look at the top 10 most miserable and corrupted countries in the world. You will see more than half of them are majority Christian, why?

So why Christian countries outside of the West are so terrible? Suffering at it's worst! but you claim God has changed so many lives, just never in one of these 3rd world countries....think about it.

If you look at the evidence, it's just not there. Saying 'i believe this is the case' is not supported by evidence. No one is stopping you from believing what you want to, but the evidence that BELIEF and relationship with god reaps benefit is a pie in the sky, you see what you want to and it's not just application for christians, followers of all religions believe this. Take the blinkers off and smell the coffee.
 
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chelseacarlton

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they let anyone in there?
I’d ******* like the joint to burn to the ground so I could piss on the ashes.
That goes for every paedophile institution, I’d make sure all the valuables were taken from the Vatican secret hidden floors first and nuke the place.
You see, I’m not like one of those moderate live and let live friendly types when it comes to the houses of Abraham, I hope my grandkids or great grandkids get to see every Abrahamic cult house of death and disease worship razed, it would be sublime retribution for the hell on earth they’ve collectively created over the centuries, one day it will be judgement day and it won’t be how your sick cult thinks it will be, it will the ancestors of the enlightened coming back to finally have their vengeance.
Your mob are the guilty, for all the pain and suffering the new world and old world have had bear witness to, it was a pestilence and disease from the moment it began, the day it is buried and forgotten will be the greatest day our planet has encountered.
You suffer a disease in mind and body, that’s your cults problem, you still have time to relieve yourself, I hope one day you find the courage to rid yourself of this sickness, be an individual and be free, there are many organisations that can help, most of those people that are available to you were in far deeper than you’ve ever been, Bishops, Priests, Nuns, Rabbis, Imams, they all broke the addiction to slavery you’re currently encountering, good luck brother, I truly believe that you can break the chain.
 

Gethelred

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God decides who lives. Simple fact.
We know we will all die.
I can only assume that the fact I am still alive, God has not yet finished with me in this life. To each day, I am thankful, and that is how i start each day- a prayer of thanks.
There have always been doctors in some form, and this has EVOLVED in sophistication over the centuries.
Hitler was mid 50's when he suicided- not a long life. Eddie Jaku is over 100yo.
So, if God decides who lives, why seek out medical treatment?
 

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twotooto

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I can't get past the ultimatum.

"jesus died for you and he loves you. Worship him, follow him and repent or you'll be tortured forever. Oh, and Jesus isn't dead."

It's just so silly.
I'm sure Jesus is/was a top bloke but I reckon when he gets back he is gonna be pissed at what the gang has done with the joint! :tearsofjoy:
 

Total Power

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I'm sure Jesus is/was a top bloke but I reckon when he gets back he is gonna be pissed at what the crew has done with the joint! :tearsofjoy:
Can't stress on this enough, all my reasoning here have failed, i have quoted verses where Jesus said on FOUR different occasions NOT to follow him if they still have material possessions, not to follow him if they don't feed the hungry and the poor, NOT to follow him, unless they care for the sick. All fallen in deaf ears. Vdubs thinks belief and repent is enough to get a pass to eternal life just like MSM christians believe. The other 5.5 billion people are........ well i have explained a 100 times here what happens to the unbelievers.
 

Evolved1

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explain your confident assertion please.
Your defense of the indefensible is typical of victims of abuse. Battered women speak of their partners and defend them in the same way you do with your abusive god.

I dont blame your god because it isn't real. The real abusers are your priests and pastors who control and manipulate people through fear.

Only a victim of abuse or complete idiot would think that a benevolent god sends people to Hell. I dont think you're a complete idiot.
 

Vdubs

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So, if God decides who lives, why seek out medical treatment?
Why eat? Why drink? Why sleep?
Why obey road traffic rules?
Why obey any of our God-given rules that help people live?
God has given. us doctors and nurses. Not all medical conditions lead to death.
Are you seriously asking that question?
 

Total Power

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Why eat? Why drink? Why sleep?
Why obey road traffic rules?
Why obey any of our God-given rules that help people live?
God has given. us doctors and nurses. Not all medical conditions lead to death.
Are you seriously asking that question?
The biggest scientific achievemets in human history has come from the separation of Church and the state, precisely, after the first industrial revolution. You are not claming this one.
 

Gethelred

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Why eat? Why drink? Why sleep?
Why obey road traffic rules?
Why obey any of our God-given rules that help people live?
God has given. us doctors and nurses. Not all medical conditions lead to death.
Are you seriously asking that question?
Yep.

If God decides who lives and who doesn't, then you could and should theoretically give it all to him. Put your life in his hands, as it were.
Atheist society . Point missed
Nooooope.


In particular:


... in which a man declared himself Jesus' brother, and threw China into civil war based upon Christian teachings within his Heavenly Kingdom.

So, if you wanted to demonstrate your ignorance, this was a fairly appropriate way to do it.
 

Vdubs

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You said God decides everything. Where is the evidence that belief in Jesus or having a relationship with Jesus improves lives? Outside of personal anecdotes of well to do white people from first world countries or priviledged people in 3rd world countries? why don't you look at the Top 10 happiest country in the world and tell me which one is majority Christian? NONE. We have Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland , Denmark all in the top 10 who are 90%+ atheist. They are also the richest per capita, their lifestyle is also amongst the best the world, they have empathy, they share and care, they have built a model society for everyone to look up to where poverty and misery is non existent (almost), all for an atheistic country. So no God is needed without having to kill each other, without having to steal, rape, murder, have slaves etc right?

So where is your evidence that Christians are better off? So no God is necessary to build a model society? right? now look at the top 10 most miserable and corrupted countries in the world. You will see more than half of them are majority Christian, why?

So why Christian countries outside of the West are so terrible? Suffering at it's worst! but you claim God has changed so many lives, just never in one of these 3rd world countries....think about it.

If you look at the evidence, it's just not there. Saying 'i believe this is the case' is not supported by evidence. No one is stopping you from believing what you want to, but the evidence that BELIEF and relationship with god reaps benefit is a pie in the sky, you see what you want to and it's not just application for christians, followers of all religions believe this. Take the blinkers off and smell the coffee.
You claim those con tries are 90 % atheist. That is debatable.
And the parameters used to formulate the Happy Score are interesting.

Since 2002, the World Happiness Report has detailed the world's happiest countries based on several factors. As of 2020, the World Happiness Report determined that Finland is the happiest country in the world.

The report looks at countries with respect to their performance of six particular variables:

  • Gross domestic product per capita
  • Social support
  • Healthy life expectancy
  • Freedom to make your own life choices
  • Generosity of the general population
  • Perceptions of internal and external corruption levels
By relating all of the countries around the world individually to a made-up country called Dystopia, the researchers were able to configure a baseline to compare all other countries. This enabled the study to base the conclusions on rather than not providing any rock bottom.

The country with the highest score was Finland, which is a European country. Fascinating enough, every single country in the top five spots for happiest countries in the world are European countries. Finland is followed in order by Denmark, Norway, Iceland, and the Netherlands. All six variables are considered when defining a score for each country.

The lowest-scoring country in the World Happiness Report of 2020 is Afghanistan. With a total ranking of 2.567, Afghanistan has a low life expectancy rate, paired with low gross domestic product rates per capita.

Finland is a predominantly Christian nation where 68.7% of the 5.5 million overall population are members of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland (Protestant), 28.5% are unaffiliated, 1.1% are Orthodox Christians and 0.8% follow other religions like Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, folk religion etc.

Just under 20% of the Danish population identifies as atheist. Many Danish people chose to identify as spiritual but not religious when given the option in polls.

While most countries in the world have no official religion, Sweden is in fact the only Nordic country without a state church, as Norway, Denmark, Iceland and Finland have all retained theirs.20 July 2020
 
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Total Power

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You claim those con tries are 90 % atheist. That is debatable.
Not debatable, the number is actually higher, i am a citizen of Sweden (along with Australia too). No one here believes in Bible/Christ/Allah etc. NONE. In all my time in Sweden i know about 20 people who are Christians and that's being generous.
And the parameters used to formulate the Happy Score are interesting.

Since 2002, the World Happiness Report has detailed the world's happiest countries based on several factors. As of 2020, the World Happiness Report determined that Finland is the happiest country in the world.

The report looks at countries with respect to their performance of six particular variables:

  • Gross domestic product per capita
  • Social support
  • Healthy life expectancy
  • Freedom to make your own life choices
  • Generosity of the general population
  • Perceptions of internal and external corruption levels
By relating all of the countries around the world individually to a made-up country called Dystopia, the researchers were able to configure a baseline to compare all other countries. This enabled the study to base the conclusions on rather than not providing any rock bottom.

Secondly , you copy pasted without understanding the system here, under national Laws, you must register with the church (19th century law). I have registerd my sons with the luteran church of Sweden under law. In 2014 79.8% of Finns were members of the evangelical lutheran state religion, Folkekirken, but only 2.4% say they attend weekly mass

The country with the highest score was Finland, which is a European country. Fascinating enough, every single country in the top five spots for happiest countries in the world are European countries. Finland is followed in order by Denmark, Norway, Iceland, and the Netherlands. All six variables are considered when defining a score for each country.

The lowest-scoring country in the World Happiness Report of 2020 is Afghanistan. With a total ranking of 2.567, Afghanistan has a low life expectancy rate, paired with low gross domestic product rates per capita.

Finland is a predominantly Christian nation where 68.7% of the 5.5 million overall population are members of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland (Protestant), 28.5% are unaffiliated, 1.1% are Orthodox Christians and 0.8% follow other religions like Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, folk religion etc.
Whatelse would you use as a metric? health, corruption, social support, wealth, frreedom.....whatelse do you need? how do you build a society like that through religion? answer: you cannot.
 

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