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Total Power

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My truthful life experience.
I know you say we can't lose, because whatever happens happens.
I am not saying your experience is not true.

Prayers (placebo effect) has it's limitations. It works for your life (like real life situations, health etc) but never works in areas where you don't have control (see my Rwanda example). It cannot cure late stage cancer, it cannot grow a leg for an amputee, it cannot stop wars, it cannot prevent destruction, it cannot stop spreading viruses, it cannot find magical cures for disease which aren't curable (that takes effort money and research) etc.
 

SBD Gonzalez

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Kidding, right?
Sleep has never been a strength, even as an infant,my mum told me she would walk in to see how I was, and I would be lying there eyes open as soon as she walked in.
Now, I seem to get by on 5 hours a day.
Not good. You should be doing all you can to get at least 7 hours a night. Skimping on sleep has enormous long term health consequences in practically any aspect of your health you care to name.
 

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Total Power

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Not good. You should be doing all you can to get at least 7 hours a night. Skimping on sleep has enormous long term health consequences in practically any aspect of your health you care to name.
I 100% agree with this. Since this whole lockdown thing began i am stuck in my home while managing all this remotely...basically working 20 hours a day and had tremendous ill effects on me. I now have mild hypertension and insomnia. Not great.
 

Vdubs

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I am not saying your experience is not true.

Prayers (placebo effect) has it's limitations. It works for your life (like real life situations, health etc) but never works in areas where you don't have control (see my Rwanda example). It cannot cure late stage cancer, it cannot grow a leg for an amputee, it cannot stop wars, it cannot prevent destruction, it cannot stop spreading viruses, it cannot find magical cures for disease which aren't curable (that takes effort money and research) etc.
By and large, true.
Prayer can help in those situations but not curatively, as that article suggested.


although, there are special places where there are prayers over people for miracles, and although we don't practice this, it has been reported to occasionally result in miraculous healing
 
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Total Power

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An interesting brief clip on religion from a fantastic recent Lex Fridman Podcast with a couple of great modern day Philosophers ie. Michael Malice and Yaron Brook.
There is nothing you can provide that will convince and i am saying this as an ex-Christian. The realisation has to come from critical thinking within oneself. Santa is the clearest analogy. Don't worry about what these people think. They aren't interested in debate and rational conversation. If they had the same 'standard' for belief for their god as they put other gods through, the world will be different today.

When I was an Evangelical, the first 19 years of my life, I was most definitely "saved." I was a sincere, practicing Christian who prayed, took communion, gave tithes, worshipped, attended functions, volunteered, and –for all intents and purposes– knew God. The miracles and the hocus-pocus were all real to me.

It's partly because I was "saved" that I deconverted. The experience of "salvation" is a powerful placebo, and it takes a lot of hard work and questions to realize you're under a spell.
 

Saint

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Hey, so the stampeded at the Israeli religious festival which killed 44 people.

Act of a vengeful Christian God?
God works in Mysterious Ways?

Those 100,000 people who contributed to the deaths of 44 of their colleagues, you think anyone will wake up?

Unlikely.

Such a waste.
 

SBD Gonzalez

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Kidding, right?
Hey, so the stampeded at the Israeli religious festival which killed 44 people.

Act of a vengeful Christian God?
God works in Mysterious Ways?

Those 100,000 people who contributed to the deaths of 44 of their colleagues, you think anyone will wake up?

Unlikely.

Such a waste.
Well for starters there's the little problem of whether the monotheistic Jewish god is the same as the monotheistic Christian god or the monotheistic Muslim god. Their respective followers can't even come up with a coherent answer to that.

Let alone the problem of polytheistic religions like Hinduism.

As someone said, every religious believer is an atheist, except for the one exception they make of their own god.
 

Vdubs

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There is nothing you can provide that will convince and i am saying this as an ex-Christian. The realisation has to come from critical thinking within oneself. Santa is the clearest analogy. Don't worry about what these people think. They aren't interested in debate and rational conversation. If they had the same 'standard' for belief for their god as they put other gods through, the world will be different today.

When I was an Evangelical, the first 19 years of my life, I was most definitely "saved." I was a sincere, practicing Christian who prayed, took communion, gave tithes, worshipped, attended functions, volunteered, and –for all intents and purposes– knew God. The miracles and the hocus-pocus were all real to me.

It's partly because I was "saved" that I deconverted. The experience of "salvation" is a powerful placebo, and it takes a lot of hard work and questions to realize you're under a spell.
You may have described already but there are a few here who have deconverted. What exactly led to that realisation for you? Were you let down, did you experience sinful "Christians", did you start to think that God just could not be real from what your studies and life experiences offered?
I think every Christian questions and has doubts.But to completely do a 180 and not believe at all is a huge shift, one that I can not imagine, despite many times being disappointed by losing family members and mates to illness, death, etc. Life is fragile, but we are aware of this from birth- only 2 things are certain after birth- death, and taxes.
And the eternal life that is promised as part of following Jesus is not always a daily panacea, and most often only kicks in when the end days are imminent. Yet the daily following of Jesus ' ways for me are a critical part of my life.
 

Total Power

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You may have described already but there are a few here who have deconverted. What exactly led to that realisation for you? Were you let down, did you experience sinful "Christians", did you start to think that God just could not be real from what your studies and life experiences offered?
I think every Christian questions and has doubts.But to completely do a 180 and not believe at all is a huge shift, one that I can not imagine, despite many times being disappointed by losing family members and mates to illness, death, etc. Life is fragile, but we are aware of this from birth- only 2 things are certain after birth- death, and taxes.
And the eternal life that is promised as part of following Jesus is not always a daily panacea, and most often only kicks in when the end days are imminent. Yet the daily following of Jesus ' ways for me are a critical part of my life.
I have explained it to you multiple times in this very thread in every detail. You either don't read my posts (you admitted you don't read Roy's post) or you have dementia.

All my family and relos are on the same boat as me right now, life dramatically improved after leaving their faith. I am living my dream right now in the middle of Europe, great family, great health, wealth security, great friends, whatelse do you need?

As i mentioned above, everytime i see 'thoughts and prayers' to a shooting in the US my blood boils, as if it has solved anything. Placebo works in certain cases, where you are dependent on other people or justice system it never works. Take for example a Christian persecuted in Africa or Pakistan praying for freedom, never works! There are many examples where prayers (just like fake pills) heal people, it's not cause of God, it's science. Well Christians seem to be using placebo effect as a blanket statement for any psychological and circumstantial benefits religion can provide, so I won't get into that. It also gives people a sense of community and "purpose" but that's it.

To disprove placebo, you should to show tangible benefits like outside of what i explained above. Something i never seen, ever! it's simply not possible cause your deity doesn't exist, outside of granting personal favours in your head, he is pretty impotent.
 

Evolved1

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You may have described already but there are a few here who have deconverted. What exactly led to that realisation for you? Were you let down, did you experience sinful "Christians", did you start to think that God just could not be real from what your studies and life experiences offered?
I think every Christian questions and has doubts.But to completely do a 180 and not believe at all is a huge shift, one that I can not imagine, despite many times being disappointed by losing family members and mates to illness, death, etc. Life is fragile, but we are aware of this from birth- only 2 things are certain after birth- death, and taxes.
And the eternal life that is promised as part of following Jesus is not always a daily panacea, and most often only kicks in when the end days are imminent. Yet the daily following of Jesus ' ways for me are a critical part of my life.
The penny drops when you stop trying to convince yourself that it's true. People who want to believe something will find reasons to believe irrespective of their validity.

Ever met a mother with an ugly baby who thinks he's the cutest thing in the world? That's what religious people are like. I mean, you guys believe that the same god who drowned 99% of living beings when he had a tantrum is the epitome of love.
 

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Evolved1

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I 100% agree with this. Since this whole lockdown thing began i am stuck in my home while managing all this remotely...basically working 20 hours a day and had tremendous ill effects on me. I now have mild hypertension and insomnia. Not great.
Extended lockdowns are horrible. Are you still considering whether to come back to Australia?
 

Total Power

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Extended lockdowns are horrible. Are you still considering whether to come back to Australia?
Nah mate, everything i have is here now, except my parents who are in Oz. I wouldn;t be able to run my business from Australia, too much red tape, higher taxes, more regulations and just too far away from my main market, which is Europe and USA. i left Australia for good for good some 20 years ago and i can't imagine living there now, just too fond of Europe.

Having said that i visit almost every year except last year, i either need to get my parents here or i need to spend some time with them in Adelaide. Things are tough with so much going on. :(
 

Baltimore Jack

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Hey, so the stampeded at the Israeli religious festival which killed 44 people.

Act of a vengeful Christian God?
God works in Mysterious Ways?

Those 100,000 people who contributed to the deaths of 44 of their colleagues, you think anyone will wake up?

Unlikely.

Such a waste.
Its all gods plan, besides he has form for this
 

Total Power

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The penny drops when you stop trying to convince yourself that it's true. People who want to believe something will find reasons to believe irrespective of their validity.

Ever met a mother with an ugly baby who thinks he's the cutest thing in the world? That's what religious people are like. I mean, you guys believe that the same god who drowned 99% of living beings when he had a tantrum is the epitome of love.
When you are omnipotent you can repair the world without killing anyone by definition. You can for example snap your fingers and just make them think how to do good. Any killing is completely unnecessary.

Before Boston tiger jumps in and says 'are you going to tell God what to do', yes i will, cause we have spent a 100,000 years fighting, killing, raping, stealing, murdering anything in sight. It's time to stop killing and start loving, regardless of race, religion, color, creed, sexuality. It's wrong to kill human beings for whatever reasons when you being an omnipotent campaigner can do it in a much better way than asking people to rape, murder children brutally. What possible justification could there be for killing 42 children with bears for making fun of a bald man???

If Christians are right however, if we can't possibly know his perspective, then how are we to make any moral judgements on God, good or bad? It seems that their argument could just as easily be used to argue that we can't know that God, when being/doing good, is truly being/doing good for good's sake, rather than for the purposes of achieving greater evil.
 

Evolved1

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When you are omnipotent you can repair the world without killing anyone by definition. You can for example snap your fingers and just make them think how to do good. Any killing is completely unnecessary.

Before Boston tiger jumps in and says 'are you going to tell God what to do', yes i will, cause we have spent a 100,000 years fighting, killing, raping, stealing, murdering anything in sight. It's time to stop killing and start loving, regardless of race, religion, color, creed, sexuality. It's wrong to kill human beings for whatever reasons when you being an omnipotent campaigner can do it in a much better way than asking people to rape, murder children brutally. What possible justification could there be for killing 42 children with bears for making fun of a bald man???

If Christians are right however, if we can't possibly know his perspective, then how are we to make any moral judgements on God, good or bad? It seems that their argument could just as easily be used to argue that we can't know that God, when being/doing good, is truly being/doing good for good's sake, rather than for the purposes of achieving greater evil.
The Christians are right that we can't technically disprove the existence of their god. There could be a god that drowned almost every living being, orders people to fly planes into buildings, and wants Carlton to win another premiership.

We could be brainwashed by an evil entity to think these things are wrong when they're not. If everything god does is loving and good, then every act ordered by god is good. As dubs keeps posting, who are we to argue?

I wouldn't follow such a god even if it were real. The only reason anyone would is because they want a slice of sky pie in the afterlife.
 

western royboy

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You may have described already but there are a few here who have deconverted. What exactly led to that realisation for you? Were you let down, did you experience sinful "Christians", did you start to think that God just could not be real from what your studies and life experiences offered?
I think every Christian questions and has doubts.But to completely do a 180 and not believe at all is a huge shift, one that I can not imagine, despite many times being disappointed by losing family members and mates to illness, death, etc. Life is fragile, but we are aware of this from birth- only 2 things are certain after birth- death, and taxes.
And the eternal life that is promised as part of following Jesus is not always a daily panacea, and most often only kicks in when the end days are imminent. Yet the daily following of Jesus ' ways for me are a critical part of my life.
Most of us are forced into accepting religion by rote from when we are very young. We never learn to question it - it is just accepted. I’m in a different category to virtually everyone here - I’m a survivor of CSA at the age of 9, and despite that I still continued to attend up until I was an adult. That coincided with the revelation that the joker I believed would one day come and sort it all out - good old Bp Mulkearns was actually protecting my perpetrator. So aside from the odd wedding and funeral I haven’t darkened the door of a church since and moved on with my life. Or so I thought. But as time wore on the invasive nature of the offence committed against me became harder to conceal and I became a prisoner in my own life. It caused me to do things and become someone that I wasn’t and ultimately cost me everything and almost my life. There are several pivotal points but in order to get my eldest son into the high school of his choice - I had to have him and his siblings baptised. I vividly recall sitting up on the altar not 20 paces from where I was abused thinking to myself “you ******* hypocrite”.
Eventually I ended up in a psych ward (there’s a lot of water in between the two events and not much of it good) and I began to read a English history book and so I got into the church wars. For a time I believed I was probably a Protestant but ultimately I went deep into it and I came to the conclusion that it was all a lie. This was confirmed when I later started dealing with the Church and got inside its lies and hypocrisy.

I’m a happy practicising atheist and I’m in no doubt that there is no god.
 

Vdubs

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Most of us are forced into accepting religion by rote from when we are very young. We never learn to question it - it is just accepted. I’m in a different category to virtually everyone here - I’m a survivor of CSA at the age of 9, and despite that I still continued to attend up until I was an adult. That coincided with the revelation that the joker I believed would one day come and sort it all out - good old Bp Mulkearns was actually protecting my perpetrator. So aside from the odd wedding and funeral I haven’t darkened the door of a church since and moved on with my life. Or so I thought. But as time wore on the invasive nature of the offence committed against me became harder to conceal and I became a prisoner in my own life. It caused me to do things and become someone that I wasn’t and ultimately cost me everything and almost my life. There are several pivotal points but in order to get my eldest son into the high school of his choice - I had to have him and his siblings baptised. I vividly recall sitting up on the altar not 20 paces from where I was abused thinking to myself “you ******* hypocrite”.
Eventually I ended up in a psych ward (there’s a lot of water in between the two events and not much of it good) and I began to read a English history book and so I got into the church wars. For a time I believed I was probably a Protestant but ultimately I went deep into it and I came to the conclusion that it was all a lie. This was confirmed when I later started dealing with the Church and got inside its lies and hypocrisy.

I’m a happy practicising atheist and I’m in no doubt that there is no god.
Truly sorry for your experience, and I know from my time at a "Christian" Brothers school, this unfortunately occurred.
I could have ended up with your conclusion, easily, but the question of what it's all about, how we came to be, and trying to accept that people will continue to commit atrocities whether or not they profess to be believers convinces me that God is real.
 

Total Power

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Truly sorry for your experience, and I know from my time at a "Christian" Brothers school, this unfortunately occurred.
I could have ended up with your conclusion, easily, but the question of what it's all about, how we came to be, and trying to accept that people will continue to commit atrocities whether or not they profess to be believers convinces me that God is real.
Why pick on heathens when your God tops the charts in atrocities commited?

What exactly is an atrocity? is murder one? is genocide one? infanticide?

Before BT jumps in again and says you can't challenge god, i will say, we have come a long way as humans, saying i worship a being who kills infants, drowns every person (despite being omnopotent and knowing the future,), threatens people hell for silliest of reasons (like washing your hands!!!! or a divorce), means he is eternally good, pretty much invalidates everything we have learned as humans.

I have absolutely no doubt, the deity of the Bible doesn't exist, it's impossible, impractical, illogical and plain stupid to believe your deity wasn't man made. Afterall it acted exactly like those primitive clan of goat herderers did during that time. Fancy that....
 

Vdubs

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Why pick on heathens when your God tops the charts in atrocities commited?

What exactly is an atrocity? is murder one? is genocide one? infanticide?

Before BT jumps in again and says you can't challenge god, i will say, we have come a long way as humans, saying i worship a being who kills infants, drowns every person (despite being omnopotent and knowing the future,), threatens people hell for silliest of reasons (like washing your hands!!!! or a divorce), means he is eternally good, pretty much invalidates everything we have learned as humans.

I have absolutely no doubt, the deity of the Bible doesn't exist, it's impossible, impractical, illogical and plain stupid to believe your deity wasn't man made. Afterall it acted exactly like those primitive clan of goat herderers did during that time. Fancy that....
We know your interpretation of God. You have expressed your beliefs like a zealot, which is fine. Yet you fail to convince those of us who believe, despite your protestations, and "evidence". Your interpretation seems very negative and angry, and based on your studies after falling out.
 

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