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Evolved1

Norm Smith Medallist
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If he is, he's an honest one, as he was quick to qualify the findings with a reminder that there's no *scientific* evidence for Tall el-Hammam actually being Sodom. He's a retired Earth Scientist, Professor Emeritus at UCSB in the University of California system. He's from New Zealand has no formal theological qualifications to indicate he is a Christian. He may be religious, but if I were guessing, I'd say no. Almost certainly no fundamentalist, even if he is religious. https://www.gulfbase.org/people/dr-james-p-kennett


Yes, noted. The academic paper I linked to, written by Collins, is a refutation of Merrill's work.
I don't have a problem accepting that many of the biblical accounts are based on actual events. The problem lies in proving any of the magic in those accounts.

Did a large scale flood happen? Sure.
Did fire reign from the sky? Sure, why not.
Did god impregnate a virgin to give birth to a messiah? That's a little less believable.
 

Evolved1

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I don't know why I, or anyone else, does that. But I do. The Bible isn't logical and I'm being illogical and irrational to believe it. I already know, but my beliefs can not be deliberately changed (I believe God exists, I can't just choose not to). Some external force would have to change my beliefs. It be interesting to hear from a clinical psychologist why some people hold only to empirical evidence, and why others 'trust' or 'have faith' in something that cannot be shown to exist with empiricism.

I don't believe everything that people tell me. I don't believe you, for example. I don't think you're a liar, I just think you're wrong. I don't know what my psychological filter is for deciphering what to believe and what not to believe. But I'd be interested to know.

One thing I can say, though, is it's not as though I cherry-pick science to believe what I do (as at least one poster here has falsely accused me of doing). I believed the account of Sodom and Gomorrah before these findings. I believe in the Genesis creation account whilst being largely ignorant as to any science which supports it or disproves it. I really just don't feel the need to have everything I believe be empirically proven.
If you really want to impress the atheists here, go hunting for a Precambrian rabbit. See where the rabbit hole takes you.
 

indoistriku

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If you really want to impress the atheists here, go hunting for a Precambrian rabbit. See where the rabbit hole takes you.
The hunting alone will suffice? I can't promise I'll find him, but I'll keep an eye out as I'm looking for Gomorrah. Then I'll have you AND Roy impressed with me. Who knows, maybe the discovery can be made here in Indonesia, the land of the exotic and home to the Flores Pygmy and the Orang Pendek. It's fun sometimes to indulge in the hard-to-believe, just don't make a religion out of it ;)
 

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Roylion

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It does 'validate' those claims,
It doesn't really validate the story as outlined in Genesis.

Genesis 19:24 Then the Lord caused to rain upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven.

Some may interpret that as a meteor, but other scholars interpret it is as a volcanic eruption. The fire raining from the sky and the “dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace" that Abraham sees in the aftermath, suggests to some scholars a volcano was the culprit.

Some researchers think a more plausible location of Sodom and Gomorrah is in southern Syria, where an eruption did occur at a time when the cities are thought to have existed, around the early or middle Bronze Age. In Syria, southwest of Damascus, large basaltic flows date to within a millennium of the presumed age of the biblical destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. The flows originated from volcanoes along the Dead Sea transform fault system. At two settlements, Khirbet El-Umbashi and Hebariye, dated around the second part of the third millennium BC (which is about the time of the purported destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah), many animal bones and dwellings were covered by the basaltic lava. Large gravesites near the lava are also consistent with a catastrophe.

Tall el-Hammam is located to the north-east of the Dead Sea in the Jordan Valley. The position that Sodom has been discovered at Tall el-Hammam approximately 8 miles on the north-eastern side of the Dead Sea, has been popularized by evangelical archaeologist Dr. Steven Collins and is known as the "Northern Theory".

Others suggest that Sodom and Gomorrah lie to the south-east of the Dead Sea. This is known as the "Southern theory". Below is an outline of the Southern Theory and some of the evidence that supports it.

Sodom and Gomorrah were two of five cities referred to in Genesis as the Cities of the Plain. In 1973 solid archaeological evidence for locating the Cities of the Plain was found. An archaeological survey of the area southeast of the Dead Sea was conducted by Walter Rast and Thomas Schaub in conjunction with their work at Bab edh-Dhra (identified with Sodom), an Early Bronze (ca. 3300–2000 BC) site. Rast and Schaub discovered four additional sites south of Bab edh-Dhra called Numeira (identified with Gomorrah), Safi (identified with Zoar), Feifa (identified with Admah) and Khanazir (identified with Zeboiim), which they suggested might be related to the five Cities of the Plain.

All five sites date from the same archaeological period, the Early Bronze Age conventionally dated 3150-2350 BC.

Subsequent excavations at Numeira, 13 km (8 mi) south of Bab edh-Dhra, have verified its close affinity with Bab edh-Dhra and has been identifed with Gomorrah.

Archaeological evidence indicates that the area was once fertile, in the Middle Bronze Age (c. 2000–c. 1550 BC), with fresh water flowing into the Dead Sea in sufficient amounts to sustain agriculture. Because of the fertile land, Lot selected the area of the cities of the Valley of Siddim (the Salt Sea, or Dead Sea) to graze his flocks. When the catastrophic destruction occurred, the petroleum and gases existing in the area possibly contributed to the imagery of “brimstone and fire” that accompanied the geological upheaval that destroyed the cities.

If the chronological data given in Genesis is to be used, the approximate the time span between the sacking of Sodom and Gomorrah by the kings of Mesopotamia and the final destruction of the cities can be calculated. The account of the attack of the Mesopotamian coalition comes between the time when Abraham left Haran when he was 75 (12:4) and the conception of lshmael when Abraham was 85 (16:3). Since Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed at the time of the conception of Isaac when Abraham was 99 (17:1, 21:5), the sacking of Sodom and Gomorrah by the kings of Mesopotamia took place between 14 and 24 years before the final destruction. There is evidence at both Bab edh-Dhra (Sodom) and Numeira (Gomorrah) for two destructions.

Throughout most of the life of Bab edh-Dhra the main entrance to the city was located on the west side, giving access to the plain below. Within the last 100 years of occupation, the west wall and gate area underwent a major destruction. This resulted in the citizens intentionally blocking up the west gate and constructing a new gate in the northeast. The new gate was founded on a meter of burned destruction debris resulting from the first calamity which was the sacking of Sodom. Shortly thereafter, at the close of the Early Bronze III period, the fortified city at Bab edh-Dhra (Sodom) met a final fiery end. Even though the site is badly eroded, enough evidence remained in several areas to show the severity of the disaster. The northeast gate was destroyed by fire as indicated by charcoal, broken and fallen bricks, and areas of ash. There was a massive pile-up of mudbrick in the west end suggesting heavy destruction in this part of the city. The city wall fell and the mudbrick superstructure of the sanctuary collapsed, apparently after burning. The many stone and boulder fields within the city came from walls that were disrupted and transported downslope.

At Numeira, identified as Gomorrah, a better preserved site than Bab edh-Dhra, the evidence is even more dramatic. On the east side of Numeira is a large tower 7.4 m (24 ft) wide and at least 10.0 m (33 ft) long. It was built over an earlier domestic phase that suffered a heavy burning. This earliest phase of occupation was destroyed by fire; the walls and rooms that collapsed over the ashy destruction debris consisted of considerable mudbrick detritus, many large wooden beams, and carbonized grasses and reeds still tied by the ropes that had held them together as thatch. On the occupational surface of Room V was the skeleton of a mature male who had perished in the destruction of this earliest phase. As with Bab edh-Dhra, Numeira was violently destroyed at the end of the Early Bronze III period. The type of pottery lying on the floors of the houses confirms that it met its end at the same time as Bab edh-Dhra. A thick layer of burnt debris was found in almost every area excavated. It is possible to estimate the time span between the earlier destruction and the final destruction at Numeira. The area adjacent to the inner (west) face of the tower was used as an outdoor activity area. More than 20 alternating layers of chaff and carbonized material were found between the earlier domestic phase and the final destruction layer. The nature of the layers suggested seasonal activity The estimated time span between the two destructions as being a little more than 20 years, which agrees with the Biblical time frame (14 to 24 years) between the events of Genesis 14 and 19.

In 1975 an archive of clay tablets dating to 2400–2350 BC was discovered at Tell Mardikh, ancient Ebla, in northern Syria. One of the tablets is a geographic atlas listing 289 place names. An analysis of two segments of the list by William Shea in 1983 indicates that they are sites located in Palestine, possibly places visited by merchants from Ebla . The second segment, sites 188–219, traces a route from Syria south through the central hill country of Cisjordan, along the western shore of the Dead Sea, south of the Dead Sea Plain and then north along the east side of the Plain and Dead Sea. In the area corresponding to the east side of the Dead Sea Plain there are two places named on the map below - No. 210, Admah, and further north No. 211, Sodom. If Shea's readings are correct, this would be the only confirmed mention of the Cities of the Plain outside the Bible.


Screen Shot 2021-09-24 at 5.25.13 pm.png




The Bible provides a detailed description of the calamity that befell the Cities of the Plain. In that description are two Hebrew phrases and a Hebrew word that were examined in order to understand the event: goprit wa es, the material that fell on the cities (Genesis 19:24), hapak, what happened to the cities (Genesis 19:25), and kqitor hakkibsan, what Abraham observed (Genesis 19:28).

The word goprit is a foreign loan word, most likely derived from Akkadian ki/ubritu, which means sulfurous oil (black sulfur). The word accompanying goprit, wcc es, simply means "and fire." In other words, the material that fell on Sodom and Gomorrah and the Cities of the Plain (except Zoar) was a burning petroleum product. The term hapak means to overturn, or overthrow.

So when Abraham looked down upon the scene of devastation, he observed smoke rising from the land of the plain, keqitor hakkibsan, "like smoke from a furnace." A kibsan is a pottery kiln. Air passing through a pottery kiln does so by means of a forced draft resulting from the heating of the air. The smoke exiting from a kiln is forced out of the exit flue and pushed upward into the air. That is what Abraham observed—smoke from the land of the plain being forced upwards. The word used for smoke, qitor, is not the word used for smoke from an ordinary fire. Rather, it is a thick smoke, the smoke that comes from sacrifices. It is clear that something unnatural or extraordinary is recorded here.

The region south of the Dead Sea is very unstable, being bordered by fault lines on the east and west. Earthquakes are common in this area. After surveying the geology of the district, geologist Frederick G. Clapp concluded that combustible materials from the earth destroyed the cities. He found bitumen and petroleum in the area. Natural gas and sulfur, which normally accompany bitumen and petroleum, are also present. These combustible materials could have been forced from the earth by subterranean pressure brought about by an earthquake resulting from the shifting of the bounding faults. Geologists who have studied the area in recent times agree with Clapp's reconstruction. If lightning or surface fires ignited these combustibles as they came spewing forth from the ground, it would indeed result in destruction such as described in Genesis 19. Both Bab edh-Dhra and Numeira lie at the edge of the plain, exactly on the eastern fault line.

Abraham, after having previously spoken with the Lord, knew of the impending judgment. Rising early in the morning he looked toward the Cities of the Plain from his vantage point at Hebron, high on the Mount Judah range west of the Dead Sea (which I myself have stood upon on clear day) and offers a very clear view of the entire Dead Sea.

Smoke rising from the plain south of the Dead Sea would have been readily visible from Hebron. In fact, mist rising from the Dead Sea can be seen almost any day from there. Tall el-Hammam cannot be seen. Abraham's eyewitness description fits the theory of a conflagration of petroleum products, for such a conflagration would result in a thick black smoke being forced into the sky by the heat and pressure of the burning materials shooting out of the fissure in the earth.

Geologist Jack Donahue of the University of Pittsburgh suggested that an earthquake occurred at the time the cities were destroyed. Additional evidence from the cemetery at Bab edh-Dhra demonstrates that the destruction included areas outside the towns, thus involving "the entire plain" (Genesis 19:25) and that it "came out of the heavens" (Genesis 19:24).

The keyword being, in my usage, 'support'. I'm not saying these findings prove or even validate the entire story, but they offer support. But now we're just engaging in a semantic argument.
See the above information on the "Southern Theory"
 
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Evolved1

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The hunting alone will suffice? I can't promise I'll find him, but I'll keep an eye out as I'm looking for Gomorrah. Then I'll have you AND Roy impressed with me. Who knows, maybe the discovery can be made here in Indonesia, the land of the exotic and home to the Flores Pygmy and the Orang Pendek. It's fun sometimes to indulge in the hard-to-believe, just don't make a religion out of it ;)
Indulgence is fine by me. Naturally, you'll have to accept my opinion within the context of my appreciation for Satanism and anarchy.

Indonesia is a beautiful nation, full of beautiful people. Your lovely wife is evidence.

Keep hunting for the truth and you'll find some of it.
 

travelli

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Game day! Who we praying for? I am sending one up for the dees, just for my old mate Big Ben Brown.
 

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SBD Gonzalez

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Kidding, right?
I have a Christian question (actually, for any religious believers, if they haunt this thread)

What is the rationale behind the emphasis on prophecy?

To me, if someone manages to correctly predict a future event, there are two possible explanations:

1. They can travel forward through time and then back. This is of course horseschitte. (And plus, if you believe someone could do that, why would you put your whole life in their hands, given they already know what twists and turns await, and choose to do nothing about the bad ones?)

2. They have examined the facts such as they stand, and have made an intelligent guess as to their implication for the future, which turns out to be right.

But this is not actually “prophecy”, this is “forecasting”, and people who do it well, like share analysts, get paid good money for their proven abilities to reasonably predict future outcomes. (But none of them claim to be infallible. In fact, any successful investor knows you should treat claims of infallibility, of “100% guaranteed returns”, as risible calfsplatter. As they say, if it looks too good to be true, it is.)

So what is it? The New Testament is full of claims of fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies, and my impression is it is a big part of Christianity’s case, but is a “fulfilled” prophecy really that big a deal?
 

Evolved1

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I have a Christian question (actually, for any religious believers, if they haunt this thread)

What is the rationale behind the emphasis on prophecy?

To me, if someone manages to correctly predict a future event, there are two possible explanations:

1. They can travel forward through time and then back. This is of course horseschitte. (And plus, if you believe someone could do that, why would you put your whole life in their hands, given they already know what twists and turns await, and choose to do nothing about the bad ones?)

2. They have examined the facts such as they stand, and have made an intelligent guess as to their implication for the future, which turns out to be right.

But this is not actually “prophecy”, this is “forecasting”, and people who do it well, like share analysts, get paid good money for their proven abilities to reasonably predict future outcomes. (But none of them claim to be infallible. In fact, any successful investor knows you should treat claims of infallibility, of “100% guaranteed returns”, as risible calfsplatter. As they say, if it looks too good to be true, it is.)

So what is it? The New Testament is full of claims of fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies, and my impression is it is a big part of Christianity’s case, but is a “fulfilled” prophecy really that big a deal?
The tanakh contains prophecies regarding future events including the circumstances surrounding the birth, and attributes of, a promised messiah.

It can be likened to a car hitched to a trailer. Without fulfillment of prophecies, there's no link between Judaism and Christianity.

The Abrahamic religions are a different beast to financial forecasting or use of a time machine. Christians believe that god lives outside of time, in that he sees past/present/future all at once. How he does so isn't my place to say. I prefer to think of god as similar to the architect character from the matrix movies. He's a mathematician who is trying to remove the anomaly (sin) from his idealistic system.

A trader can survive on a 50% (or lesser) success rate. Christianity hinges on a 100% success rate. If one prophecy fails, Christianity fails.
 

SBD Gonzalez

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Kidding, right?
The tanakh contains prophecies regarding future events including the circumstances surrounding the birth, and attributes of, a promised messiah.

It can be likened to a car hitched to a trailer. Without fulfillment of prophecies, there's no link between Judaism and Christianity.

The Abrahamic religions are a different beast to financial forecasting or use of a time machine. Christians believe that god lives outside of time, in that he sees past/present/future all at once. How he does so isn't my place to say. I prefer to think of god as similar to the architect character from the matrix movies. He's a mathematician who is trying to remove the anomaly (sin) from his idealistic system.

A trader can survive on a 50% (or lesser) success rate. Christianity hinges on a 100% success rate. If one prophecy fails, Christianity fails.
Thanks for your reply.

Hmm, not sure about your final point. True believers, in a range of settings, show a remarkable ability to work around failed prophecies. Ordinary people would think the last thing a religious shyster would want to do is set a firm date for the fulfilment of their prophecy, but they do it over and over, and although they tend to lose a few followers each time, the ability of the majority of their followers to ignore (or explain away) the reality in front of their noses is wondrous.

And my rudimentary knowledge of the Seventh Day Adventists (who brought us Weet-Bix, and Lindy Chamberlain!) has them originating from The Great Disappointment, a period in the 19th century in America when the prophecies of a guy called William Miller failed to materialise. (Maybe someone on here has better knowledge of that than I.)

(Then there’s the whole question of what constitutes a successful prophecy. As you say, Christianity hinges entirely on its claim that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah. The Jews say “nup, you got the wrong guy”. They can’t both be right.)

Disconfirmed Expectancy is the psychological term for failed prophecies, explored by Leon Festinger (of “cognitive dissonance” fame). It’s a fascinating area.

I guess my original question could be fleshed out as:

“History abounds with either disagreements over fulfilment of prophecies, or examples of believers continuing to hold on to their beliefs despite undeniable evidence to the contrary. Given the fraught history of prophecies and their alleged fulfilment or failure, what do prophecies represent to religious belief in general? Is a claim to know the future seen by followers (and crucially, potential followers) as some sort of requisite display of super-humanism? Or is the very contestable nature of prophecy the thing that makes it such a convenient tool? Or is it something else?”

To put it baldly, when someone claims such-and-such will occur in the future, what is inherent in that claim, such that when it is deemed to be proven correct (or sometimes, amazingly, shown to be utterly wrong!) it causes someone to go “seems legit. I’ll give you all my money.”?
 
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Evolved1

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Thanks for your reply.

Hmm, not sure about your final point. True believers, in a range of settings, show a remarkable ability to work around failed prophecies. Ordinary people would think the last thing a religious shyster would want to do is set a firm date for the fulfilment of their prophecy, but they do it over and over, and although they tend to lose a few followers each time, the ability of the majority of their followers to ignore (or explain away) the reality in front of their noses is wondrous.

And my rudimentary knowledge of the Seventh Day Adventists (who brought us Weet-Bix, and Lindy Chamberlain!) has them originating from The Great Disappointment, a period in the 19th century in America when the prophecies of a guy called William Miller failed to materialise. (Maybe someone on here has better knowledge of that than I.)

(Then there’s the whole question of what constitutes a successful prophecy. As you say, Christianity hinges entirely on its claim that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah. The Jews say “nup, you got the wrong guy”. They can’t both be right.)

Disconfirmed Expectancy is the psychological term for failed prophecies, explored by Leon Festinger (of “cognitive dissonance” fame). It’s a fascinating area.

I guess my original question could be fleshed out as:

“History abounds with either disagreements over fulfilment of prophecies, or examples of believers continuing to hold on to their beliefs despite undeniable evidence to the contrary. Given the fraught history of prophecies and their alleged fulfilment or failure, what do prophecies represent to religious belief in general? Is a claim to know the future seen by followers (and crucially, potential followers) as some sort of requisite display of super-humanism? Or is the very contestable nature of prophecy the thing that makes it such a convenient tool? Or is it something else?”

To put it baldly, when someone claims such-and-such will occur in the future, what is inherent in that claim, such that when it is deemed to be proven correct (or sometimes, amazingly, shown to be utterly wrong!) it causes someone to go “seems legit. I’ll give you all my money.”?
It seems your question is more to do with prophecies by religious figures than those contained in religious texts. Is that correct?

There's a big distinction between the two with true believers. A true Christian believes the bible is best interpreted literal for the most part, and that it contains no errors be they scientific, historical, or in prophecy. A fervent true Christian believes that god preserved his word through thousands of years without a single transcription error. Even a true believer will accept that fallible humans make errors.

Anyway, it's an interesting question. The Christians seem to have lost the appetite for answering them.
 

SBD Gonzalez

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Kidding, right?
It seems your question is more to do with prophecies by religious figures than those contained in religious texts. Is that correct?

There's a big distinction between the two with true believers. A true Christian believes the bible is best interpreted literal for the most part, and that it contains no errors be they scientific, historical, or in prophecy. A fervent true Christian believes that god preserved his word through thousands of years without a single transcription error. Even a true believer will accept that fallible humans make errors.

Anyway, it's an interesting question. The Christians seem to have lost the appetite for answering them.
Yes, I guess I'm conflating prophesies as contained in the Bible and claimed in retrospect to be true, with prophecies by modern day cult leaders. I don't have much time for either, and I guess my question is about the nature of prophecies in general, and what they represent in Christianity, and other religions.

It's basically a display of alleged magic, but I'm curious as to why this particular display of alleged magic has worked its way to the front of the religion.

(I for example would be more impressed by a religious figure who could walk through walls, for example. Now that I would be impressed by. Or if he could sing through his penis. Or coach St Kilda to a threepeat.)
 

Gethelred

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Yes, I guess I'm conflating prophesies as contained in the Bible and claimed in retrospect to be true, with prophecies by modern day cult leaders. I don't have much time for either, and I guess my question is about the nature of prophecies in general, and what they represent in Christianity, and other religions.

It's basically a display of alleged magic, but I'm curious as to why this particular display of alleged magic has worked its way to the front of the religion.

(I for example would be more impressed by a religious figure who could walk through walls, for example. Now that I would be impressed by. Or if he could sing through his penis. Or coach St Kilda to a threepeat.)
If someone could coach St Kilda to a premiership, it raises some divinity based questions.
 

Aristotle Pickett

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Why are so many Christians just flat out racists?
Are these Christians real Christians or just Christian by name?
Why doesn't the church pay proper compensation to people who were repeatedly abused and molested by christian priests?
 

Present Not Past

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Why are so many Christians just flat out racists?
Are these Christians real Christians or just Christian by name?
Why doesn't the church pay proper compensation to people who were repeatedly abused and molested by christian priests?
I think the Jews were racist during the time of Jesus. You could argue that is still the case.i don’t know.
I think you can level that claim against many people who claim that they are one thing or another.
Your third point is very valid. But why stop there. I know of many people who were abused at school because they were different. People beaten by teachers and other students because they were gay, they were from poor families, were not very good at education or were ugly. Please show us the direction we need to take here.
 

western royboy

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Why are so many Christians just flat out racists?
Are these Christians real Christians or just Christian by name?
Why doesn't the church pay proper compensation to people who were repeatedly abused and molested by christian priests?
1. Because their God is the “right one” and anything else is wrong
2. plenty of faux christians around
3. because money is their real god
 

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