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Total Power

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Would I need to be ashamed if that were my belief? Is that your objective in this public discussion; to ridicule someone’s statement of believe?
Where did i ridicule? i merely pointed out him picking on Roylion 's argument is based on his lack of understanding in science. He should educate himself and then discuss. No one is born knowing everything, you need to educate yourself. Plenty of times in these forums i have admitted i was wrong, which most don't do here cause of ego.
 

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Opine

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Where did i ridicule? i merely pointed out him picking on Roylion 's argument is based on his lack of understanding in science. He should educate himself and then discuss. No one is born knowing everything, you need to educate yourself. Plenty of times in these forums i have admitted i was wrong, which most don't do here cause of ego.
You suggested that to do so may be shameful
 

Total Power

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You suggested that to do so may be shameful
Where have i done that? you call me arrogant,but he was discussing evolution with Roy for 3 pages asserting he was wrong while not knowing enough about it. Glance through the past pages, he was pointed out where he was wrong, several times.
 

Evolved1

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Hi Evolved a Lot of what I say may sound like splitting hairs but I have put a lot of thought into most
of what I believe.

1st religious beliefs being an extension of the self, maybe for some but as I understand scripture mans
nature from Gods perspective is innately evil. While we can do good things our nature is such we are inevitably
and consistently drawn to our more base way of living.
eg suppose that our existence is down to there being a God. A quick read anywhere including this forum + that
article would show people criticising God because He doesn’t measure up.

I would also make a point as I see it there are 2 MAIN types of people who see themselves as Christians.
One is the cultural Christian, quite often but not always they have been raised in the church and with
every fibre of their being see themselves as Christians. Then there are those who are born again or have a
spiritual rebirth, as per John 3, if scripture is right these are the only people that really are Christians.

Yes you are right we are supposed to look after the planet, as well as each other and have failed badly
at this. (But not in a socialist government welfare sense)

Jesus will have a real Theocracy here on Earth but only after He returns. Yes we will still have free will,
but everything will be different, there will be no more sin or sin nature.

Making the Bible say what you want is not just restricted to abortion just about everyone seems
to do this at some level, whether consciously or not.
Anyone who can make an argument that He doesn’t care whether we kill babies or not has not
one iota of understanding who He is.

The only good + virtuous people being Christ like, you are right on the money here. We can never be
good enough that’s half of the gospel message.

You’ve done some homework, many people who see themselves as christians don’t see this.
I think the sword is figurative but the blood isn’t.

ps on coal, it is a dirty fuel and the sooner people stop using it the better.

on slavery yes we abolished it, + it even took until the 1960s to pressure Saudi Arabia to outlaw it,
but it is still thriving today in many parts of the world.
I appreciate the thoughtful reply, freo.

Did any of your values change when you became born again?
 

carltonchelsea

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Well on the scientific evidence, where is it.
I mean actual scientific evidence, everyone has a barrow to push and generally choose
to believe that which suits them.

Today the vast majority (like the rest of society are atheists) of scientists are not immune from this.
see the famous Richard Lewonton quote re keeping the divine foot out of the door.

Im going to assume you understand the Neo-Darwinian model.

If life started out as a simple single sex animal, with all the genetic infrastructure to reproduce itself,
then how did that evolve from that model to one that is interdependent on reproduction.
You need to think about this.
You have a single sex which then somehow goes on to be interdependent for reproduction.
eg pairing the chromosomes.

This is not within the realms of possibility, not only that but it would need everything that goes on with
conception, gestation and birth (birth canal etc.) at the same instant.

If this miraculous creation had both sexes, then they would have to have identical mutations
across all species in perpetuity to perpetuate.

In the entire history of animal husbandry no new creation has ever happened.
Can you please write a cogent legible sentence or idea, please?
It’s like reading a 5 year olds explanation on why water is wet.
It’s tedious!
Utterly detestable, lacking in any form of intellectual reasoning, why do you even try?
Let me tell you one thing, the science you abuse to post on this site, is the exact scientific method that calculated the years our universe has existed, it’s the very exact science that cured Polio(that my grandfather suffered from, but recovered from, due to the exact same science I post to you from), it’s the same science, that calculated red shift, cured small pox, the same science that allows you to travel to Europe, Africa, America etc.
The science you rail against is the cure your future family member will not die a hideous death.
Science works, your god delusion, does not and never will.
Counter this and you will win every prize known to humanity, I beg of you to try.
FMD, the idiocy in this thread is enough to make me take up the sword like the imaginary yeshua!!
fu** 2021, bring on 2022 and let’s rid ourselves of these ******* idiots and their idiotic “religious freedumb bigot laws”, once and for all!!♥
 

Roylion

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I thought he was coherent.
I don't think so. He says.....

"You dont even understand what I’ve written do you, you haven’t contended with it at all."

If he was coherent in what he was trying to say, then I would understand it.

Moreover, this isn’t a science thread
A discussion of science (and why and how scientists establish certain things as facts) becomes relevant when one rejects what is well known as scientific fact on the basis of their religious belief (which is what this thread is about).
 

Opine

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I don't think so. He says.....

"You dont even understand what I’ve written do you, you haven’t contended with it at all."

If he was coherent in what he was trying to say, then I would understand it.



A discussion of science (and why and how scientists establish certain things as facts) becomes relevant when one rejects what is well known as scientific fact on the basis of their relgious belief (which is what this thread is about).
I’m not going to argue with you Roy. I enjoy reading your posts far too much.
 

carltonchelsea

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Would I need to be ashamed if that were my belief? Is that your objective in this public discussion; to ridicule someone’s statement of believe?
Bolded (lol).
Yes, because it’s ******* stupid, idiotic, wrong and downright ******* offensive to anyone with an IQ over double digit figures.
This is why Scummo wants a religious fu****** bill, so fu**silly people like you and him can continue to muddy the reality we have to share!
It’s annoying that you pretend to be someone feigning to protect yours and your parents and his, detestable christ-cult beliefs, shame on you mate, grow up and grow a pair, I’m ashamed to wear the CFC at any game you attend wearing the same.
I’d burn it knowing you do.
That’s how I feel, contrarian nonsense or not.
Here comes a 5 day, but it is totes worth it.
I’ve had more fun at the Tote than any christ-cult moron has in their entire life in one 3 band night, that’s reality.
They hate culture, art and love.
Christians hate LOVE, if love doesn’t mean jew-boi, they ******* hate you, they are trying to silence our objections to their collective stupidity, I won’t allow this to happen and will challenge it in the High Court.
This is only the beginning of the cults downfall.
Challenge secular society and expect the majority to resist, violently if necessary, lawfully until you necessarily become violent as history has always shown.
Happy Yuletide, heathens.😂
 
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freo99

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Could you elaborate on several topics, preferably with an explanation of how and why your values changed. The topics I'm most interested in are coal/global warming, the value of science vs faith, pro-choice vs pro-life, legality of gay marriage.
I can’t speak for others but in my case it took a couple of days to realise it was real.
That changed how I thought but I still didn’t know anything.

I know this sounds foolish but that’s what happened.

On issues which seems to be your question.

There is no contention between science + God, all of the founding fathers of the different sciences were
christians. Science itself is neutral about God, if it’s not neutral your not doing science you’re doing
philosophy.

If you take the Old Testament as historical, which I do, it then explains everything.

Anything outside of the nature of God is sin. Not popular but there it is.

Killing babies is wrong and murder is wrong obviously.
Homosexuality is more complicated as to why it is wrong, it goes back to the original
creation of Adam + Eve.

Coal is a dirty fuel, it’s not the CO2 that’s the real problem as I see it but the soot or carbon
deposits that are generated + contribute more to global warming.

Hugh Ross is an astronomer + he is across much of the science including global warming.
He has a lot on Youtube.

As for the age of the universe I have no problem with an old universe, many christians
do but quite a few don’t.
As I see it, it accords well with the historical record.

Hope this helps, I know I’ve stuck my neck out.
 

Total Power

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I can’t speak for others but in my case it took a couple of days to realise it was real.
That changed how I thought but I still didn’t know anything.



all of the founding fathers of the different sciences were
christians. Science itself is neutral about God, if it’s not neutral your not doing science you’re doing
philosophy.
Absolute nonsense, yet another unsupported statement. Neither of Feynman, Einstein, Tesla, Bohr, Bohm, Darwin were Christian. Einstein went on to say that a personal Christian God is ridiculous. Plus you are forgetting India and the Arabic contribution to science? While many scientists were Christians like Newton and Planck, your above statement is ridiculous.
 

Evolved1

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I can’t speak for others but in my case it took a couple of days to realise it was real.
That changed how I thought but I still didn’t know anything.

I know this sounds foolish but that’s what happened.

On issues which seems to be your question.

There is no contention between science + God, all of the founding fathers of the different sciences were
christians. Science itself is neutral about God, if it’s not neutral your not doing science you’re doing
philosophy.

If you take the Old Testament as historical, which I do, it then explains everything.

Anything outside of the nature of God is sin. Not popular but there it is.

Killing babies is wrong and murder is wrong obviously.
Homosexuality is more complicated as to why it is wrong, it goes back to the original
creation of Adam + Eve.

Coal is a dirty fuel, it’s not the CO2 that’s the real problem as I see it but the soot or carbon
deposits that are generated + contribute more to global warming.

Hugh Ross is an astronomer + he is across much of the science including global warming.
He has a lot on Youtube.

As for the age of the universe I have no problem with an old universe, many christians
do but quite a few don’t.
As I see it, it accords well with the historical record.

Hope this helps, I know I’ve stuck my neck out.
Appreciate the thoughtful reply once again, mate. I'm a little rusty on the topic, but I think I can make a case for being pro-choice using the bible. I'll do a bit of research and see if I can come up with anything interesting.
 

Opine

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Bolded (lol).
Yes, because it’s ******* stupid, idiotic, wrong and downright ******* offensive to anyone with an IQ over double digit figures.
This is why Scummo wants a religious fu****** bill, so fu**silly people like you and him can continue to muddy the reality we have to share!
It’s annoying that you pretend to be someone feigning to protect yours and your parents and his, detestable christ-cult beliefs, shame on you mate, grow up and grow a pair, I’m ashamed to wear the CFC at any game you attend wearing the same.
I’d burn it knowing you do.
That’s how I feel, contrarian nonsense or not.
Here comes a 5 day, but it is totes worth it.
I’ve had more fun at the Tote than any christ-cult moron has in their entire life in one 3 band night, that’s reality.
They hate culture, art and love.
Christians hate LOVE, if love doesn’t mean jew-boi, they ******* hate you, they are trying to silence our objections to their collective stupidity, I won’t allow this to happen and will challenge it in the High Court.
This is only the beginning of the cults downfall.
Challenge secular society and expect the majority to resist, violently if necessary, lawfully until you necessarily become violent as history has always shown.
Happy Yuletide, heathens.😂
Well, I bloody well like you despite that you’ve openly clarified, in advance, that any politeness on your part shouldn’t deflect from your underlying sentiment that Christian’s and the like are the sworn objects of your wrecking ball, that their time on this earth is finite, and that their expulsion and slaughter is warranted. But, cautiously, I think I still bloody well like you.

Did someone mention rail?
 

Evolved1

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Bolded (lol).
Yes, because it’s ******* stupid, idiotic, wrong and downright ******* offensive to anyone with an IQ over double digit figures.
This is why Scummo wants a religious fu****** bill, so fu**silly people like you and him can continue to muddy the reality we have to share!
It’s annoying that you pretend to be someone feigning to protect yours and your parents and his, detestable christ-cult beliefs, shame on you mate, grow up and grow a pair, I’m ashamed to wear the CFC at any game you attend wearing the same.
I’d burn it knowing you do.
That’s how I feel, contrarian nonsense or not.
Here comes a 5 day, but it is totes worth it.
I’ve had more fun at the Tote than any christ-cult moron has in their entire life in one 3 band night, that’s reality.
They hate culture, art and love.
Christians hate LOVE, if love doesn’t mean jew-boi, they ******* hate you, they are trying to silence our objections to their collective stupidity, I won’t allow this to happen and will challenge it in the High Court.
This is only the beginning of the cults downfall.
Challenge secular society and expect the majority to resist, violently if necessary, lawfully until you necessarily become violent as history has always shown.
Happy Yuletide, heathens.😂
Mate, we'll give you a good home at Essendon if you ever want out of Carlton. That goes for Gethelred too.

I hate to see decent gents like yourselves missing out on the winning culture we have at Tullamarine.
 

travelli

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Appreciate the thoughtful reply once again, mate. I'm a little rusty on the topic, but I think I can make a case for being pro-choice using the bible. I'll do a bit of research and see if I can come up with anything interesting.
I don't know about pro-choice, that goes back to the agreed definition of life (is it conception or birth?). There is an argument that babies become spiritually awakened when they breathe their first breath (as in Genesis), but I don't think any faiths have adopted that.

I think there is room for homosexuality in todays Christianity. Sure, there are statements against it, mainly in the Old Testament, but there are definitely ways to reinterpret that in the modern understanding of loving relationships and God given sexuality.
 

Roylion

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If you take the Old Testament as historical, which I do, it then explains everything.
Parts of the Old Testament are historical (such as some of the information in the Book of Kings and the Chronicles), but we can definitely rule out Adam and Eve and a global flood as historical events / personages.

Archaeological discoveries have cast considerable doubt on the historicity of the Exodus and the Israelite / Hebrew invasion of Canaan as outlined in the Book of Joshua. Archaeology supports the view that the Hebrews were originally a hill tribe of Canaanites. Archaeology also reveals that some of those very same cities listed in the Book of Joshua (the events of which should take place in the Late Bronze Age - 1550 BC - 1150 BC) were only inhabited much later in the 7th century BC.


Anything outside of the nature of God is sin.
How do you know what the "nature of God" is.

Killing babies is wrong and murder is wrong obviously.
The Old Testament is filled with both. Sanctioned by Yahweh ('God") as well.

Homosexuality is more complicated as to why it is wrong, it goes back to the original creation of Adam + Eve.
There is absolutely no evidence for the 'creation' of Adam and Eve as the first persons / couple on the planet from which all humanity is descended. I've explained elsewhere how genetic studies have ruled out any such event.

The prohibition on homosexuality has nothing to do with the divine or 'divine law' 'which in reality does not exist, except in the human imagination.

The early Israelites / Hebrews who worshipped Yahweh, (and all Jews, Christians and Muslims essentially worship Yahweh) developed a prohibition on homosexuality because homosexuality posed a threat to societies with a high infant mortality rate and a very slow population growth. The Hebrews / Israelites were originally a minority in the land of Canaan (and were essentially Canaanites themselves) and were trying to increase their numbers. So there was a practical human reason to discourage homosexuality. Hence homeosexuality's prohibition in the Book of Leviticus.

Homosexuality was also associated with the rival worship of Baal and hence was another good reason for the priests of Yahweh to speak out against the practice.

The ancient worship of Baal involved imitative magic and the performance of rituals, including sacred prostitution. Sexual acts by both male and female temple prostitutes were understood to arouse Baal who then brought rain to make Mother Earth fertile when crops were abundant. When that occurred Baal was praised and thanked for his abundant rain.

So in a land where the worshippers of Baal and Yahweh (with the worshippers of Yahweh originally in the minority) lived side by side it wasn't surprising that the original Temple compound of the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem contained a room for the kadesh (the male prostitutes) who was not removed until the reign of King Josiah. It was then the priests of Yahweh finally won their long standing battle against the worshippers of Baal. It was all about maintaining power over the society that the priests of Yahweh existed in.

As much of the Old Testament was first written down during the reign of King Josiah, it's not surprising that much of the Old Testament is a extended Yahwist propaganda tract, preaching against the cult of Baal and of course its attendant practices of worship, including homosexuality. In order to defeat the cult of Baal, it became necessary to demonize the cult and to represent Baal as an evil god - a demon / a fallen 'angel' - hostile to God (Yahweh) and therefore humankind. Hence Baal's symbols, the snake and the bull became incorporated into images of Satan / Lucifer and casting homosexuality, anal sex and the like as a transgression against 'divine law' thereby casting the followers of Baal as 'ungodly' or 'evil'

So homosexuality, anal sex, masturbation etc. etc. is not actually hated by 'God' nor is 'God' concerned about what humans do with their genitals, whether in or outside socially approved relationships. Homosexuality's continued condemnation and demonisation by modern religious fundamentalists as a 'sin' (some of whom appear to be on these boards), is really nothing more than an extension of the struggle by the worshippers of Yahweh to impose their patriarchal ideology upon the Hebrew / Jewish people. That is continued in modern times by the adherents of the Abrahamic religions (who are essentially the modern worshippers of Yahweh) who in turn seek to impose their ideology upon the wider population.
 
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freo99

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Parts of the Old Testament are historical (such as some of the information in the Book of Kings and the Chronicles), but we can definitely rule out Adam and Eve and a global flood as historical events / personages.

Archaeological discoveries have cast considerable doubt on the historicity of the Exodus and the Israelite / Hebrew invasion of Canaan as outlined in the Book of Joshua. Archaeology supports the view that the Hebrews were originally a hill tribe of Canaanites. Archaeology also reveals that some of those very same cities listed in the Book of Joshua (the events of which should take place in the Late Bronze Age - 1550 BC - 1150 BC) were only inhabited much later in the 7th century BC.
Guess again
 

Roylion

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Guess again
Are you disputing any of what I've said? Present your evidence as to why these can be regarded as historical events.

There is absolutely no evidence for the 'creation' of Adam and Eve as the first persons / couple on the planet from which all humanity is descended. I've explained elsewhere how genetic studies have ruled out any such event.
 

freo99

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Are you disputing any of what I've said? Present your evidence as to why these can be regarded as historical events.

There is absolutely no evidence for the 'creation' of Adam and Eve as the first persons / couple on the planet from which all humanity is descended. I've explained elsewhere how genetic studies have ruled out any such event.
Look there is no point in engaging with you, you took it upon yourself to interject into
someone else’s convo. (Yes I know it’s a public forum)

ever hear of Mitochondrial Eve

on the Exodus, Titus Kennedy has done a lot of work on this. https://afr.net/podcasts/i-don-t-ha...s-with-dr-stephen-meyer-and-dr-titus-kennedy/

on the global flood it need not be global…that view is based on the use of language from 3,500 yrs ago

Islam worships Yahweh, if you actually believe this it shows you have very little understanding of either
Christianity or Islam. They are are polar opposites, Islam is completely antichrist in nature, it denies
the basic tenets of Christianity.
 

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