Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2

[Chief]

Continued in Part Two:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ask-a-christian-part-2.1295001/unread

 

[Total Power]

We all look at issues that have been described in the OT and think how good it is that God does not need to teach lessons like those anymore. But I certainly believe that if He did those acts, He had good reason to do so, and I am not questioning a Creator about His motives, which I know you think you have some right to do so. You either believe He is God and accept His judgements and work, or you are a non-believer and go your own sway, as a conscientious objector. Your choice.

That is blind faith. You said, God ordered to rape that woman cause he had a good reason to do so. All we have in our mind, how do you judge what's moral or not? you say he is loving, kind and merciful, yet you say he works in mysterious ways cause his actions dont support your assertion yet you are convinced he is loving and kind. This to me is BLIND faith, one of the reasons why i left Christianity. Chrisitans say god is the source of objective morality, yet (forget OT) in the NT when you are sent to hell for masturbation, when women are told not to speak up in the church, when people are threatened hell cause they didn't welcome Jesus to the town etc, shows lack of tolerance and love.

Objective morality is something that is followed by:

• everyone living on the planet right now (outside of psychopaths)
• everyone who ever lived in the past
• everyone who will live in the future
• no exemptions for anyone, including God

I really wonder at what point of time do you concede that the Bible does NOT support your notion of loving kind and merciful god, but atleast great to see that you concede that God is not the source of objective morality. You are already a better person than your Biblical God and your niceness doesn't stem from the Bible, it stems from altruism and empathy. You can see this last century when the same arguments were used for/against interracial marriage. You can see these arguments used now for/against homosexual marriage. Morality is evolving and we are getting better, always!

If God wants us to believe in him, he should have done a better job with the Bible, but look what a terrible job he did, the manuscripts are not even original, the book has been manipulated, muiltiple times, yet he wants us to believe! sorry, there is no evidence that the Bible is true! So why should we believe? I just don't understand why do YOU need religion?

Moral is simple and it changes often. Moral is simply any given population groups consensus on any given topic. It changes all the time, ref slavery, interracial marriage, weed, gays etc etc.

Moral is not something that stems from religion - quite the opposite, religion is horrible to use when agreeing upon moral as it is, by design, an exclusive group. Moral is inclusive, not exclusive like religion is. (Like Be a Christian, orelse.....)

 

[Total Power]

But she is one of the happiest people in the world, living in Sweden, where nearly all people are atheists. I read your point.

Happy yes, so am i, we have no religion in our household, we live in no fear, we live free...we are financially secured, in good health, great family. That's all that i need to be happy, i don't need to live in fear and obidience to a monster like the god of the Bible like you, i only have one life unlike you.

 

[Roylion]

typical edit.

You and “facts” are ill acquainted.

 

[Vdubs]

That is blind faith. You said, God ordered to rape that woman cause he had a good reason to do so. All we have in our mind, how do you judge what's moral or not? you say he is loving, kind and merciful, yet you say he works in mysterious ways cause his actions dont support your assertion yet you are convinced he is loving and kind. This to me is BLIND faith, one of the reasons why i left Christianity. Chrisitans say god is the source of objective morality, yet (forget OT) in the NT when you are sent to hell for masturbation, when women are told not to speak up in the church, when people are threatened hell cause they didn't welcome Jesus to the town etc, shows lack of tolerance and love.

Objective morality is something that is followed by:

• everyone living on the planet right now (outside of psychopaths)
• everyone who ever lived in the past
• everyone who will live in the future
• no exemptions for anyone, including God

I really wonder at what point of time do you concede that the Bible does NOT support your notion of loving kind and merciful god, but atleast great to see that you concede that God is not the source of objective morality. You are already a better person than your Biblical God and your niceness doesn't stem from the Bible, it stems from altruism and empathy. You can see this last century when the same arguments were used for/against interracial marriage. You can see these arguments used now for/against homosexual marriage. Morality is evolving and we are getting better, always!

If God wants us to believe in him, he should have done a better job with the Bible, but look what a terrible job he did, the manuscripts are not even original, the book has been manipulated, muiltiple times, yet he wants us to believe! sorry, there is no evidence that the Bible is true! So why should we believe? I just don't understand why do YOU need religion?

Moral is simple and it changes often. Moral is simply any given population groups consensus on any given topic. It changes all the time, ref slavery, interracial marriage, weed, gays etc etc.

Moral is not something that stems from religion - quite the opposite, religion is horrible to use when agreeing upon moral as it is, by design, an exclusive group. Moral is inclusive, not exclusive like religion is. (Like Be a Christian, orelse.....)

The Word, according to Total Power.

You make nice points, but I have confidence and faith in the Lord that you once knew personally, but now don't believe in. It is YOU who left ; God is constant. Jesus was and is His gift to us. You had that, but decided to leave it. Now you want others to go down your pathway.
Alternatively, I have found the Jesus pathway to make sense, and to worth persevering with. If I did not know what I do know, I could easily be tempted by your arguments. You know the reasons for my faith, and you choose to dismiss them.
So be it.

 

[Vdubs]

You and “facts” are ill acquainted.

If your "facts" make me ill, there is a message in there...?

 

[Total Power]

The Word, according to Total Power.

You make nice points, but I have confidence and faith in the Lord that you once knew personally, but now don't believe in. It is YOU who left ; God is constant. Jesus was and is His gift to us. You had that, but decided to leave it. Now you want others to go down your pathway.
Alternatively, I have found the Jesus pathway to make sense, and to worth persevering with. If I did not know what I do know, I could easily be tempted by your arguments. You know the reasons for my faith, and you choose to dismiss them.
So be it.

You would forgive someone who raped and murdered a thousand children?

What possible moral justification is there for that?

Is a god that would deem someone’s personal worship of him as more important than punishing them for untold atrocities a just or moral being?

And I would respond by pointing out that human morality is superior to that of god, since we use our own morality to pick and choose what moral standards from the bible that we follow.

See: slavery, working on the sabbath, eating shellfish, rape, subjucation of women, homosexuality etc

Your concept doesn't explain in the slightest the immorality of a salvation concept. you also don't do christianity its due diligence by omitting the part about eternal torture for even the most mundane of offenses. i wouldn't consider free will to have been given to me considering i am also threatened with this damnation simply for existing. Why would you even follow such an entity?

 

[Evolved1]

So if you work with them you don't know about this? My wife calls herself a non-practicing Christian (she's swedish), yet i have never seen her pray, read the bible, attend mass, repent or anything. It's more like a fashion statement. Look up on the stats, sweden has about 5% praciticing Christian.

At one stage my wife called herself a Christian atheist. These surveys claiming a high percentage of Christian believers within Europe and Australia are bullshit, and the Christians know it.

People tick the box for cultural reasons. The actual number who believe in talking snakes, Hell, and creationism would be significantly lower. The average Australian would have beliefs closer to mine than someone like Vdubs

Gay marriage would never have passed otherwise.

 

[Total Power]

At one stage my wife called herself a Christian atheist. These surveys claiming a high percentage of Christian believers within Europe and Australia are bullshit, and the Christians know it.

People tick the box for cultural reasons. The actual number who believe in talking snakes, Hell, and creationism would be significantly lower. The average Australian would have beliefs closer to mine than someone like Vdubs

Gay marriage would never have passed otherwise.

Vdubs is already an unbeliever, he just doesn't know this yet. He is a Christian atheist too. I am sure he won't approve of any of the verses below:


However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way."

-Leviticus 25:44-46

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property."

-Exodus 21:20-21

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ."

-Ephesians 6:5

"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are."

-Exodus 21:9

That's just a tiny pinch of the crazy unethical things that religious people like to ignore. What if the Christian God is really evil but just tells us that he's benevolent. All sorts of evil could then be committed in his name under the false claim of love.

 

[Gethelred]

indoistriku, given that you're more than happy to cast aspersions in my direction, how about you answer the question throwing a bit of shade over yours instead of running away?

What if your god came to you, and told you that unless you did this act, he would view mankind as irrevocably irretrievable and would concede heaven and earth to the devil? Would said act still be *objectively* evil?

 

[Evolved1]

Vdubs is already an unbeliever, he just doesn't know this yet. He is a Christian atheist too. I am sure he won't approve of any of the verses below:


However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way."

-Leviticus 25:44-46

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property."

-Exodus 21:20-21

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ."

-Ephesians 6:5

"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are."

-Exodus 21:9

That's just a tiny pinch of the crazy unethical things that religious people like to ignore. What if the Christian God is really evil but just tells us that he's benevolent. All sorts of evil could then be committed in his name under the false claim of love.

He must be one of those lukewarm Christians who doesn't believe in the word of god! I presume god will punish the lukewarm Christians who refuse to sell their daughters into slavery.

 

[Vdubs]

You would forgive someone who raped and murdered a thousand children?
Yes.
What possible moral justification is there for that?
God does. If genuine repentance.
Is a god that would deem someone’s personal worship of him as more important than punishing them for untold atrocities a just or moral being?
Your question. You answer it. I have already told you my pov.
And I would respond by pointing out that human morality is superior to that of god, since we use our own morality to pick and choose what moral standards from the bible that we follow.
And I tell you the only reason you have morality or conscience is because we have been made in God's image.
See: slavery, working on the sabbath, eating shellfish, rape, subjucation of women, homosexuality etc

Your concept doesn't explain in the slightest the immorality of a salvation concept. you also don't do christianity its due diligence by omitting the part about eternal torture for even the most mundane of offenses. i wouldn't consider free will to have been given to me considering i am also threatened with this damnation simply for existing. Why would you even follow such an entity?
You have a choice if you are so perturbed about eternal torture. What is it to be? Do you believe it will happen to you for forsaking your faith? Or do you believe it is all garbage, and will not happen at all? If the latter, why bother asking those who believe? But if you're in doubt, or in turmoil about your fate, it is NEVER too late to ask for His forgiveness, if you are sincere. God knows the hearts of ALL OF US.

 

[Vdubs]

At one stage my wife called herself a Christian atheist. These surveys claiming a high percentage of Christian believers within Europe and Australia are bullshit, and the Christians know it.

People tick the box for cultural reasons. The actual number who believe in talking snakes, Hell, and creationism would be significantly lower. The average Australian would have beliefs closer to mine than someone like Vdubs

Gay marriage would never have passed otherwise.

The gradual degradation of society along with lessening of Christian faith, and the mocking of Christians, is well recognised. Just helps the remainder of us to keep the faith as strongly as we can, despite the resistance.

 

[Vdubs]

Vdubs is already an unbeliever, he just doesn't know this yet. He is a Christian atheist too. I am sure he won't approve of any of the verses below:


However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way."

-Leviticus 25:44-46

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property."

-Exodus 21:20-21

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ."

-Ephesians 6:5

"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are."

-Exodus 21:9

That's just a tiny pinch of the crazy unethical things that religious people like to ignore. What if the Christian God is really evil but just tells us that he's benevolent. All sorts of evil could then be committed in his name under the false claim of love.

ALL of those verses are worthy of NOT being captured in isolation. YOU need to understand the people they were written for, the context, the era, and the results.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

The gradual degradation of society along with lessening of Christian faith, and the mocking of Christians, is well recognised. Just helps the remainder of us to keep the faith as strongly as we can, despite the resistance.

No-one mocks Christians. They just expect them to be able to logically justify their beliefs, specially considering they’ve so keen to impose them on everyone else uninvited.

 

[Evolved1]

The gradual degradation of society along with lessening of Christian faith, and the mocking of Christians, is well recognised. Just helps the remainder of us to keep the faith as strongly as we can, despite the resistance.

In what ways do you see society being degraded, and how do you attribute them to the lessening of Christianity in society?

 

[Roylion]

I tell you the only reason you have morality or conscience is because we have been made in God's image.

That is debatable. God is made in man's image.

 

[Evolved1]

That is debatable. God is made in man's image.

As opposed to womans image. There isn't a single female author in the entire book.

 

[Vdubs]

No-one mocks Christians. They just expect them to be able to logically justify their beliefs, specially considering they’ve so keen to impose them on everyone else uninvited.

Sorry, that is garbage.
this is the Ask a Christian Thread.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

this is the Ask a Christian Thread.

I think you’re clever enough to grasp that I’m talking about Christianity in general, not merely this thread we have here.

Christianity is one of the most overbearing religions the world has ever seen. YOU may keep your faith to yourself except when it comes up in discussion, but millions of your fellow believers insist on sharing their quaint views unasked.

 

[Gethelred]

The gradual degradation of society along with lessening of Christian faith, and the mocking of Christians, is well recognised. Just helps the remainder of us to keep the faith as strongly as we can, despite the resistance.

This is exceedingly silly.

Humans lives have improved, constantly, for nigh centuries if not millenia. Sometimes, the rate of improvement as been slower than a glacier; sometimes, we've gone from a preindustrial society into where we are now in 200 years. If anything, that improvement rate is and has been increasing for a while.

Society is not degrading. It's becoming more complex, and it's becoming much, much larger, but that is not degredation.

The reason this is an important distinction to make is because the belief that you're in a degrading world - ie, one inevitably getting worse - leads to you giving up on this place, this life. It leads to you voting particular ways; it leads you to littering, to not planning for the future, not caring about conserving this place for the future.

You cannot be a steward of this planet, cannot make plans, cannot want more, if the end times are coming. You tread water.

 

[Total Power]

ALL of those verses are worthy of NOT being captured in isolation. YOU need to understand the people they were written for, the context, the era, and the results.

I have given you the 'context' ,the context was war. Mohammed did such things and people label him as a barbarian and it's not just the OT, some of it is NT as well, so there's no escape for you. The universal declaration of human rights STATE , that women and children should be spared from war. But somehow this escaped your god? So our morality is already better than your Bibiical God?

 

[Total Power]

You have a choice if you are so perturbed about eternal torture. What is it to be? Do you believe it will happen to you for forsaking your faith? Or do you believe it is all garbage, and will not happen at all? If the latter, why bother asking those who believe? But if you're in doubt, or in turmoil about your fate, it is NEVER too late to ask for His forgiveness, if you are sincere. God knows the hearts of ALL OF US.

Nonsense. First of all, i am not 'bothered' by a narcissistic idea that is not based on spirituality, it's based on organised religion and Nicean Christianity. My point is against such destructive belief and why you guys believe in such nonsense? Don't make this about me, as i said, what you believe is irrartional illogical and simply destructive. The main reason why the world is such a ****ed up place.

If it’s infinite punishment for a finite crime, then personally I can’t reason my way to making the moral math work. God sends pepple to hell for thought crime but as he begs he is forgiven. Means Hitler is in heaven if he accepted Christ before he died. See how ridiculous your ideology is .

But the question is why are we born in sin? The answer is because god created us that way. You can try and say it was our own fault because Adam ate the apple, but that is ludicrous, if Adam never ate the apple none of us would be born, as reproduction did not occur until after the fall of man. Therefore the only way for you and i to exist is if we are born in sin, and that's because of how god created things. So to summarize, your omnipotent, all-powerful, benevolent, God created a situation where if you and i exist, then we were born in sin, and if you are born in sin then you will rot in hell. Unless of course you allow an innocent man to take the punishment for you in the form of accepting Jesus Christ. Either way, * your god

 

[Total Power]

Sorry, that is garbage.
this is the Ask a Christian Thread.

And justifiably so, some of your beliefs are ***** and does damage to people, specially children. Should be called out for what it is.

 

[Vdubs]

This is exceedingly silly.

Humans lives have improved, constantly, for nigh centuries if not millenia. Sometimes, the rate of improvement as been slower than a glacier; sometimes, we've gone from a preindustrial society into where we are now in 200 years. If anything, that improvement rate is and has been increasing for a while.

Society is not degrading. It's becoming more complex, and it's becoming much, much larger, but that is not degredation.

The reason this is an important distinction to make is because the belief that you're in a degrading world - ie, one inevitably getting worse - leads to you giving up on this place, this life. It leads to you voting particular ways; it leads you to littering, to not planning for the future, not caring about conserving this place for the future.

You cannot be a steward of this planet, cannot make plans, cannot want more, if the end times are coming. You tread water.

Au contraire.
You are projecting your own limitations and potential reaction.
You cannot pretend to know how we eat, vote, and function.
I could be a militant vegan, a commuting cyclist, an E- Car driver, and greenie while having a strong faith. You have no idea. But go ahead and make your incorrect generalisations.

We all have no idea when Jesus will return, but trying to be prepared for that by keeping your focus on Him, does not mean we don't care for what we are leaving our kids, grandkids etc.

 

[Vdubs]

I have given you the 'context' ,the context was war. Mohammed did such things and people label him as a barbarian and it's not just the OT, some of it is NT as well, so there's no escape for you. The universal declaration of human rights STATE , that women and children should be spared from war. But somehow this escaped your god? So our morality is already better than your Bibiical God?

You make puerile statements about being better than God, whether it be morality or whatever. If you don't believe in God, that is one thing, but trying to compare yourself, your "morality" with God Himself, is farcical.