Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2

[Chief]

Continued in Part Two:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ask-a-christian-part-2.1295001/unread

 

[Roylion]

The bible is not borrowed,

The Old Testament in particular clearly borrows off older mythologies, whether they be Sumerian, Babylonian or the Zoroastrian religion. The parallels are clear.

 

[Rosscoe]

The Old Testament in particular clearly borrows off older mythologies, whether they be Sumerian, Babylonian or the Zoroastrian religion. The parallels are clear.

bring it up with a jewish person; the Old testament was written for them.

 

[Roylion]

bring it up with a jewish person; the Old testament was written for them.

But is still part of the Christian Bible. You keep referencing Adam and Eve for example.

Nearly every ancient culture told its own set of creation myths and they share a number of similarities. Humans fashioned from clay, a trickster figure who subverts the gods' plans for creation, and a woman taking the blame for sin and pain.

 

[Rosscoe]

But is part of the Bible. You keep referencing Adam and Eve for example.

You said Adam and Eve was false because of science and your findings were inconclusive.

 

[Roylion]

You said Adam and Eve was false because of science

Yes. But you're claiming Adam and Eve as the first humans was an actual historical event. It's not.

and your findings were inconclusive.

The Creation story of Adam and Eve is borrowed from older mythologies. They share a number of similarities with the Adam and Eve story: humans fashioned from clay, a trickster figure who subverts the gods' plans for creation, and a woman taking the blame for sin and pain. The names and situations might have differences but they have the same elements. How original is the Creation account in the Old Testament given it was almost certainly written somewhere between 500-300 BC?

 

[Rosscoe]

Yes. But you're claiming Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and the Fall and Exile from the Garden was an actual historical event.



The Creation story of Adam and Eve is borrowed from older mythologies. They share a number of similarities with the Adam and Eve story: humans fashioned from clay, a trickster figure who subverts the gods' plans for creation, and a woman taking the blame for sin and pain. The names and situations might have differences but they have the same elements. How original is the Creation account in the Old Testament given it was almost certainly written somewhere between 500-300 BC?

You must of googled it.

 

[Roylion]

You must of googled it.

So you don't dispute that the Adam and Eve story in the Bible is in fact borrowed from older mythologies? I'm not seeing any evidence to the contrary from you.

 

[Rosscoe]

So you don't dispute that the Adam and Eve story in the Bible is in fact borrowed from older mythologies? I'm not seeing any evidence to the contrary from you.

Was this on Zeitgeist?

 

[mcnulty]

Christians when the Old Testament comes up:

 

[Roylion]

Was this on Zeitgeist?

Do you dispute that the Adam and Eve story in the Bible is in fact borrowed from older mythologies? If so why?

 

[Rosscoe]

Do you dispute that the Adam and Eve story in the Bible is in fact borrowed from older mythologies? If so why?

Please attach your research here for all of us to consider it.

 

[Roylion]

Please attach your research here for all of us to consider it.

Why don't you answer the question? Why are you avoiding it? Don't you have an answer? Can't refute it?

Do you dispute that the Adam and Eve story in the Bible is in fact borrowed from older mythologies? If you do dispute it, why?

 

[Rosscoe]

Why don't you answer the question? Why are you avoiding it? Don't you have an answer. Can't refute it?

Do you dispute that the Adam and Eve story in the Bible is in fact borrowed from older mythologies? If so why?

I am asking for your evidence not your opinion.

At this point I will accept google evidence anything.

 

[Total Power]

If I was to die of a heart attack after Geelong beats Port in a thriller GF, I would be confident MY FAITH WOULD NOT BE UNFOUNDED.

Sadly, it will likely be Port Demons.

So would be a Muslim, who would a Hindu. As likely as yours. Why are miracles in other religions and claims from other religions bullshit to you?

 

[Total Power]

Right now, seemingly fit and well, I am not confident of anything except what I know.
It's only when you face death sometimes, that you get to face this inevitability.
Other people are not so lucky to have time to face their Maker and to make peace with Him.

You don't know, you believe. I am sure even you understand the difference. They are not the same, you are on the same boat as a Muslim or a Hindu, yes i know you are confident but so are they.

There may or may not be a God, but likelihood of your version existing is zero. I explained to you why, you do not read to reply to my posts but you keep ranting every single post. I explained to you how a book copied from other mythologies is unlikely to be true. How does a barbaric book which tells me how to keep slaves and how to subjugate women 'idivine'?

 

[Total Power]

I am asking for your evidence not your opinion.

At this point I will accept google evidence anything.

Yep copied, including Noah's ark, Proverbs ,many of what Jesus said as well, yeah how 'godly'. Nothing till stop Vdubs from believing though. Original Sin comes from Gilgamesh and Not the Bible. Christian borrowed everything from other mythologies. Yeah how 'idivine'.

Gilgamesh and Genesis: The Same Story Written Twice? — Role Model Change Makers

Eli Baggott The two most pervasive and influential texts written in human history happen to have the same beginnings. Gilgamesh is an epic poem first inscribed on clay tablets by the ancient Sumerians between two and three thousand BC, translated into english many different times, including recentl

www.rolemodelchangemakers.com

 

[Rosscoe]

Yep copied, including Noah's ark, Proverbs ,many of what Jesus said as well, yeah how 'godly'. Nothing till stop Vdubs from believing though.

Gilgamesh and Genesis: The Same Story Written Twice? — Role Model Change Makers

Eli Baggott The two most pervasive and influential texts written in human history happen to have the same beginnings. Gilgamesh is an epic poem first inscribed on clay tablets by the ancient Sumerians between two and three thousand BC, translated into english many different times, including recentl

www.rolemodelchangemakers.com

Ok thanks i will get back to you.

 

[daniologist]

I am definitely aware of how myth and pagan festivals have crept into parts of Christian celebrations.

Other way around. Christian celebrations took over the pagan festivals that pre-dated christian beliefs, because they couldn't get those pagan mongrels to stop celebrating the real world seasonal events like full moons, solstices and equinoxes. Ostara/Eostre became Easter, and so on. And that there is no evidence that Jesus was actually born on 25th December, in fact some evidence that it was in what we now call April, but christians appropriated the midwinter northern hemisphere solstice. But by all means, do go on, don't let the facts get in the way of your faith.

 

[Rosscoe]

Other way around. Christian celebrations took over the pagan festivals that pre-dated christian beliefs, because they couldn't get those pagan mongrels to stop celebrating the real world seasonal events like full moons, solstices and equinoxes. Ostara/Eostre became Easter, and so on. And that there is no evidence that Jesus was actually born on 25th December, in fact some evidence that it was in what we now call April, but christians appropriated the midwinter northern hemisphere solstice. But by all means, do go on, don't let the facts get in the way of your faith.

Sort of what I was trying to say in response to the myth of Prometheus but yes I am aware of what you are saying and it’s hardly groundbreaking.

 

[Total Power]

Sort of what I was trying to say in response to the myth of Prometheus but yes I am aware of what you are saying and it’s hardly groundbreaking.

Kinda is, when you put together all the components from the creation stories to Jesus stories. You realise many of what Jesus said was lifted from Conficious and Buddhism too right? Gospel of John even had it's influence. None are original eyewitness accounts despite their claims.

 

[CM9000]

Kinda is, when you put together all the components from the creation stories to Jesus stories. You realise many of what Jesus said was lifted from Conficious and Buddhism too right? Gospel of John even had it's influence. None are original eyewitness accounts despite their claims.

Uh, what? You do realise that both Confucianism and Buddhism never came into contact with Christianity at that time? How could the Gospel writers have stolen from something they pretty much had no way of knowing about?

 

[CM9000]

It's difficult to politely assert that I think your idea that the bible isn't borrowed or that there's supernatural aspects to faith that are kept secret are bullshit, so I won't bother disguising it. Secrets are how they lure you in; the idea that you are part of a secret inner circle, that you are special, included, that you belong are all how a cult functions and separates people from their families and friends. Given that you have told us you have been punished for questioning your faith, this suggests that you are part of a sterner sect; when you say punished, would you be comfortable sharing how, either in a PM or this thread?

Imagine equating Catholicism with a cult and then being expected to be taken seriously. Might need to look up your definitions there, friend.

 

[Total Power]

Uh, what? You do realise that both Confucianism and Buddhism never came into contact with Christianity at that time? How could the Gospel writers have stolen from something they pretty much had no way of knowing about?

This is totally incorrect. The Buddhist ideas, they were widespread. There was a group in Alexandria called the therapeutae which are very reminiscent of the Theravada sect. The ideas travelled along trades routes and especially so faster during the peace of Alexander and the peace of Rome.

Therapeutae - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Roylion]

Yep copied, including Noah's ark, Proverbs ,many of what Jesus said as well, yeah how 'godly'. Nothing till stop Vdubs from believing though. Original Sin comes from Gilgamesh and Not the Bible. Christian borrowed everything from other mythologies. Yeah how 'idivine'.

Gilgamesh and Genesis: The Same Story Written Twice? — Role Model Change Makers

Eli Baggott The two most pervasive and influential texts written in human history happen to have the same beginnings. Gilgamesh is an epic poem first inscribed on clay tablets by the ancient Sumerians between two and three thousand BC, translated into english many different times, including recentl

www.rolemodelchangemakers.com

The older myth of Prometheus has influenced the Biblical account as well

The Titan Prometheus was given the task of creating humans by Zeus and to do so he used lumps of clay to shape them in the form of the gods. This of course reflects Yahweh shaping humans to be in his likeness. Adam was formed from the earth’s dust and while Yahweh breathed “into his nostrils the breath of life", the goddess Athena did the same for the first humans created by Prometheus. Zeus decided that humans would obey the gods without question and would depend on the gods to be guided and protected (as Adam and Eve would be in the Garden of Eden)

Prometheus provokes Zeus who punishes his creation - humanity - by withholding fire from humanity, but "the means of life" as well. Had Prometheus not provoked Zeus's wrath, humans..." would easily do work enough in a day to supply you for a full year even without working; soon would you put away your rudder over the smoke, and the fields worked by ox and sturdy mule would run to waste" (Hesiod).This of course parallels how humanity lost its right to exist in the idyllic Garden of Eden and was expelled to live, as Genesis 3.19 says "By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground."

To return fire to man (trangressing divine law) Prometheus lit a torch from the sun and brought it back again to man. Zeus decided to punish both man and Prometheus for this trangression.

Zeus had Hephaestus create the first woman – Pandora - (first mentioned in the 8th - 7th centuries BC by Hesiod) and like Eve (the first woman created by Yahweh in the biblical account written about the 6th- 4th centuries BC) ended up being the key factor in the fall of humankind.

In the story of Prometheus the gods gave the first woman many gifts. Zeus then had Hermes also give the mortal a deceptive heart and a lying tongue. Pandora’s mission was to marry Prometheus’ brother Epimetheus and of course like Eve eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge and encouraging Adam to do so which in turn led their downfall. Despite being told not to Pandora was willing to open a box that contained the sorrows of the world like evil, disease, poverty and war.

So both Pandora and Eve are central characters in stories of transition from an original state of plenty and ease (Garden of Eden) to one of suffering and death (expulsion to the Land of Nod) which comes about as a punishment for the transgression of divine law (eating of the tree of knowledge, opening the box). Artists, such as Jean Cousin the Elder, have long recognised the connection between the older story of Pandora and the younger story of Eve as outlined in Genesis. Both women are warned not to do something-- Eve, not to eat from The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and Pandora, not to open the box. Both women do what they're not supposed to do. And when they transgress evil is released to the world, and nothing is as perfect as used to be.

The creation myth in Hesiod has long been held to have even older Eastern influences, such as the Hittite Song of Kumarbi and the Babylonian Enuma Elis. As does the Biblical account in Genesis.

It's just like evolution! Common descent!

 

[CM9000]

I'll reference them when I see the need to. I often do anyway. Why don't you type into the search engine here the likes of Ehrman or Carrier or Stavrakopoulou amongst others to see how many times I've mentioned them.

Here I'll do one for you. A quick search shows I've mentioned Biblical scholar Bart Ehrman's name 46 times on these boards in various posts I've made on Biblical topics. I've mentioned author and archaeologist Israel Finklestein 15 times.

Here’s a couple of examples of where I did mention some specific scholars in a earlier reply to you.

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ask-a-christian.1155051/page-147#post-64632744

and

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ask-a-christian.1155051/page-148#post-64636656



So what. Why don't you actually reply to the arguments I'm making?



Like who? The poster who presented to me "The Bible For Dummies." basically inferring I should read it, before I comment further, on matters he thought I knew nothing about.



Yeah, the poster who presented to me "The Bible For Dummies." basically inferring I should read it, before I comment further, on matters he thought I knew nothing about.



Only to those, like yourself, who question where I'm getting my information from. You questioned it. I told you. Hence the reference to my academic history and my "library." I have explained this to you ad nauseum before. It's also fortunate that these days much information is at one's fingertips on the Internet, which saves quite a bit of time and effort when presenting information in a debate.



Gee. Using biblical scholarship as well as archaeological and textual evidence to support my views on the veracity and historicity of the figures and events of the Bible, purported to be true by some, on a discussion forum where a debate is occuring.

Who would have thought?

Why don't you offer an alternative view, if you disagree with my views? Back up your views with arguments and evidence drawn from a few sources like works by Biblical scholars, archaeological evidence and the like, rather than worrying about peripherals.

Have you actually got anything of substance to contribute to the conversation?



So argue against it, if you disagree with it. Address the arguments and information I put forward. Refute the evidence I present.

If you think I'm changing how I post on here to suit your sensibilities, then you're going to be sadly disappointed.

I’d happily address the arguments you make, but, unfortunately, I don‘t have 30 years of teaching experience and a personal library at home to consult. To effectively question all the stuff you copy and paste would require me to have the level of experience you have in the study of history.

What I can question is your conduct. Presumably, given one has a vastly superior grasp in a field of knowledge, they would recognise that this comes with a deal of responsibility, as their word can be taken as definite. Usually, they would try to present the overall scholarship of the field and the ideas in a non-contentious way, especially if the field in question can be quite divisive.

Which is why it is unfortunate when you solely use your accumulated knowledge solely to support your own prejudices, while (as I’ve already said) giving users on here a false sense of biblical scholarship.