Ask a Libertarian

[Seeds]

Karl Popper is quoted in that wiki. He raises a point that echoes in my own philosophy on life;

That is a ridiculously dumb philosophy. Its the same as utilitarianism except giving happiness a zero weight and only focussing on the negative side of the equation. There is no point in living if you can't be happy. Living without suffering but also without happiness is not living at all and would be mind numbingly boring. In addition, some suffering is actually important for maximising happiness over a lifetime as experiencing hardships makes you value the good times better. However this philosophy would avoid such occurances as it places zero value on any positive happiness. Ridiculous.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

That is a ridiculously dumb philosophy. Its the same as utilitarianism except giving happiness a zero weight and only focussing on the negative side of the equation. There is no point in living if you can't be happy. Living without suffering but also without happiness is not living at all and would be mind numbingly boring. In addition, some suffering is actually important for maximising happiness over a lifetime as experiencing hardships makes you value the good times better. However this philosophy would avoid such occurances as it places zero value on any positive happiness. Ridiculous.

I thought it meant that priority should be given the unhappy to BECOME happy, not that nobody should be happy. It still values happiness - otherwise it would not seek to make the unhappy more happy. If you are 'really happy' instead of 'ultra-happy' just so someone else can climb up from being 'miserable', isn't that a good thing for society?

I guess its the whole 'society v the individual' thing again, isn't it?

 

[CountryRace]

I guess its the whole 'society v the individual' thing again, isn't it?

Nope, dont think so. I think you may have to accept;
a libertarian theoretically values the liberty of other people in society too equally to that of ones own

 

[Long Live HFC]

Nope, dont think so. I think you may have to accept;
a libertarian theoretically values the liberty of other people in society too equally to that of ones own

that's just pointless rhetoric you'd hear from a libertarian. in reality of course, taxing person A in order to improve the liberty of person B (let's say, providing them with the "freedom" to eat) a libertarian would fall all over themselves pointing out why this was evil.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

I guess its the whole 'society v the individual' thing again, isn't it?

Nope, dont think so. I think you may have to accept;
a libertarian theoretically values the liberty of other people in society too equally to that of ones own

Bear in mind I'm not criticising - I'm actually trying to learn. But are you saying that a libertarian values the liberty of all others in society AS LONG as the 'liberty' being argued is equal to his or her own? They value a society where everyone's rights are the same?

 

[Lebbo73]

That's what you would think yet I'm initially responding to a person who wants to take away some liberties based on gods moral view whilst also claiming to be a libertarian. The two moral ideologies are incompatible.

I don't want to take away anyone's liberties.

 

[Lebbo73]

that's just pointless rhetoric you'd hear from a libertarian. in reality of course, taxing person A in order to improve the liberty of person B (let's say, providing them with the "freedom" to eat) a libertarian would fall all over themselves pointing out why this was evil.

Jesus said to help the less fortunate. He didn't say to steal from person A to give to person B.

 

[Long Live HFC]

Jesus said to help the less fortunate. He didn't say to steal from person A to give to person B.

thanks for proving my point.

 

[CountryRace]

that's just pointless rhetoric you'd hear from a libertarian. in reality of course, taxing person A in order to improve the liberty of person B (let's say, providing them with the "freedom" to eat) a libertarian would fall all over themselves pointing out why this was evil.

1.According to Libertarianism: A Primer by David Boaz, Free Press, 1997.
Libertarianism is the view that each person has the right to live his life in any way he chooses so long as he respects the equal rights of others

2,According to The Machinery of Freedom by David Friedman, Open Court Publishing Company, 1973.
The central idea of libertarianism is that people should be permitted to run their own lives as they wish.

3.According to American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition, 2000.
NOUN: 1. One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state.
The Challenge of Democracy (6th edition), by Kenneth Janda, Jeffrey Berry, and Jerry Goldman
Liberals favor government action to promote equality

https://www.theihs.org/what-libertarian


I don't pretend to be an expert - from the way I read it I don't see where it says a libertarian would value that of himself more than another in society. As one would value liberty in general.

Under the current economic paradigm that has developed over the last few thousand year, and that we find our self today. (here is a good doco that sums it up, i recommend it, have you seen it? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Money_Masters No doubt some branches of these people will not be too happy with the tax system in many countries.

However under a less corrupt and elitist dominate paradigm,
i see no reason why a libertarian would not be happy to pay a 'tax' / some sort of social security system,
if the outcome is:
person B would be given food that is required.
As the person B has liberty too.

Bear in mind I'm not criticising - I'm actually trying to learn. But are you saying that a libertarian values the liberty of all others in society AS LONG as the 'liberty' being argued is equal to his or her own? They value a society where everyone's rights are the same?

I think its more along the lines of:
they value liberty, as long as one persons liberty does not affect another person in a negative way. ie. take liberty away from them.

 

[Lebbo73]

thanks for proving my point.

I am pretty sure Jesus was talking to the individuals. He never said that governments had a right to steal from us.

http://christianpf.com/21-bible-verses-about-giving/

I have no problem with paying taxes. It is the blatant stealing through high taxation that irks me!

 

[Long Live HFC]

1.According to Libertarianism: A Primer by David Boaz, Free Press, 1997.
Libertarianism is the view that each person has the right to live his life in any way he chooses so long as he respects the equal rights of others

2,According to The Machinery of Freedom by David Friedman, Open Court Publishing Company, 1973.
The central idea of libertarianism is that people should be permitted to run their own lives as they wish.

3.According to American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition, 2000.
NOUN: 1. One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state.
The Challenge of Democracy (6th edition), by Kenneth Janda, Jeffrey Berry, and Jerry Goldman
Liberals favor government action to promote equality

https://www.theihs.org/what-libertarian


I don't pretend to be an expert - from the way I read it I don't see where it says a libertarian would value that of himself more than another in society. As one would value liberty in general.

Under the current economic paradigm that has developed over the last few thousand year, and that we find our self today. (here is a good doco that sums it up, i recommend it, have you seen it? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Money_Masters No doubt some branches of these people will not be too happy with the tax system in many countries.

However under a less corrupt and elitist dominate paradigm,
i see no reason why a libertarian would not be happy to pay a 'tax' / some sort of social security system,
if the outcome is:
person B would be given food that is required.
As the person B has liberty too.



I think its more along the lines of:
they value liberty, as long as one persons liberty does not affect another person in a negative way. ie. take liberty away from them.

i've already pointed out to you that the money masters is full of s**t. and i do claim to be a bit of an expert on libertarianism and it's exactly as i described above. your following assertion flies in the face of countless examples of the 'tax = theft' mantra of libertarianism.

 

[Long Live HFC]

I am pretty sure Jesus was talking to the individuals. He never said that governments had a right to steal from us.

http://christianpf.com/21-bible-verses-about-giving/

I have no problem with paying taxes. It is the blatant stealing through high taxation that irks me!

who gives a s**t what jesus said lol. it has nothing to do with libertarian philosophy.

 

[CountryRace]

I am pretty sure Jesus was talking to the individuals. He never said that governments had a right to steal from us.

http://christianpf.com/21-bible-verses-about-giving/

I have no problem with paying taxes. It is the blatant stealing through high taxation that irks me!

I think the current tax system and economic history in general - which is corrupt and silly favoring an elite few

and theoretically discussion in regards to a liberation being happy or not happy to pay a form of tax so a hungry person can eat

and in fact two different question. and the original poster you reply to mis-direct the conservation to fit a path, that suits his own worldview.

i've already pointed out to you that the money masters is full of s**t. and i do claim to be a bit of an expert on libertarianism and it's exactly as i described above. your following assertion flies in the face of countless examples of the 'tax = theft' mantra of libertarianism.

If I was not so humble, I would retort your opinion is in fact the one that is full of s**t.

Yet, I shall not.

tax in the current system is theft.

its not mantra.

study economic history and come back to me. my educated, right wing, chum.

who gives a s**t what jesus said lol. it has nothing to do with libertarian philosophy.

jesus teachings have a lot to be with this topic.

communism too

 

[Long Live HFC]

right wing, chum.

just shows how clueless you are, lulz.

asking me to study economic history is laughable when you use money masters as a resource! go to school, kid.

 

[CountryRace]

I like how you overlook the bulk of the words and just pick out that pick.

Nice form.

But hey, you have the liberty to do as you please

just shows how clueless you are, lulz.

asking me to study economic history is laughable when you use money masters as a resource! go to school, kid.

money master is non-resource worthy ?

in the near 4 hours how many errors can you point out? keeping in mind it was made in the 90s, with a limited budget and resources in the words of the author.

you are welcome to direct me to another summary of world economics - that will assit the debate in regards to "would a libertarian be happy to pay tax, as so a hungry person can eat". i am somewhat confident, in a fair and equatable system, a libertarian would be most happy to do such a thing

 

[Long Live HFC]

in the near 4 hours how many errors can you point out?

we've done this already. i pointed out one very basic, easily verifiable fact, and your response indicated you can't be reasoned with. you're not fooling me again!

 

[CountryRace]

we've done this already. i pointed out one very basic, easily verifiable fact, and your response indicated you can't be reasoned with. you're not fooling me again!

I know, but the first time round your retort was awful and shyte.

I maintain it is a well sourced documentary given the time span it covers. And the information is not easily accessible. (ie. Rothschild)

I am not trying to fool you.

 

[Long Live HFC]

as above.

 

[Seeds]

I don't want to take away anyone's liberties.

Except for the liberty to marry and to decide what happens to ones own body. Nah you don't want to take away liberties at all

 

[Seeds]

I thought it meant that priority should be given the unhappy to BECOME happy, not that nobody should be happy. It still values happiness - otherwise it would not seek to make the unhappy more happy. If you are 'really happy' instead of 'ultra-happy' just so someone else can climb up from being 'miserable', isn't that a good thing for society?

I guess its the whole 'society v the individual' thing again, isn't it?

But that is just utilitarianism once you realise that peoples happiness isn't independent of the happiness/suffering of others. Very few people can be ultra happy if others are suffering. Reducing suffering of others makes the majority happy. Most critics of utilitarianism don't seem to realise that and come up with unusual scenarios that aren't applicable to humans, with perhaps the exception of pyschopaths.

 

[Seeds]

I guess its the whole 'society v the individual' thing again, isn't it?

Nope, dont think so. I think you may have to accept;
a libertarian theoretically values the liberty of other people in society too equally to that of ones own

Whilst liberty and happiness are closely aligned they aren't the same thing.

 

[Lebbo73]

Except for the liberty to marry and to decide what happens to ones own body. Nah you don't want to take away liberties at all

How can I be taking away that Liberty when they don't have it in the first place?

 

[Seeds]

How can I be taking away that Liberty when they don't have it in the first place?

Everything that doesn't harm others is a liberty. how does marrying harm others?

 

[Seeds]

that's just pointless rhetoric you'd hear from a libertarian. in reality of course, taxing person A in order to improve the liberty of person B (let's say, providing them with the "freedom" to eat) a libertarian would fall all over themselves pointing out why this was evil.

I'm not a libertarian but you are misusing the word freedom. Everyone has the freedom to go find food for themselves unless they are enslaved, they don't need welfare to be free. Forcing someone to give up something and give it to another, however, is not freedom.

 

[Hoops]

I am pretty sure Jesus was talking to the individuals. He never said that governments had a right to steal from us.

http://christianpf.com/21-bible-verses-about-giving/

I have no problem with paying taxes. It is the blatant stealing through high taxation that irks me!

You're lucky you live in a low taxing country