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Scham said:
I'm really surprised you can't see it. He's made no secret of it and we've gone and got Clark even though we had a plethora of running half backs. It's obvious and we see it when we're dominating an opponent.

The only reason it's stifled is we aren't quite there yet player wise. Our defence is fine in most games so there's definitely room for improvement, we don't have enough pace in the midfield yet, and our forwardline is substandard.
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I mean it's not just me who can't see it. Its JL's former head coach. And pretty much the rest of the league and former players and coaches. I think the standard supporter is too quick to see a lack of points and assume it's the forward line's lack of quality. You have to look at the supply, and if there are already 20 odd players, including the primary opposition plus 1 and Ruckman waiting to intercept/destroy in the forward 50 because the supply is too slow, what chance do they have? Maybe the odd crumbed goal from a stoppage and a huge pack of players from a small forward, or a small forward tackle, which is what we sometimes got.

Did you notice most of our goals against Collingwood occurred when we had a 6/6/6 from the centrebounce, before the opposition had time to get back and have the numerical advantage?

Agree re: cattle, but my point is Geelong and Collingwood didn't make huge cattle changes, but really had large coaching (read Richmond influence) shifts. Geelong added a little bit of pace and youth, and of course a gun key forward, but the biggest shift was the moving to swift counter, playing on and running together en masse vs possession and territory based percentage football.

Will watch with interest if we manage to go further down that road next season. For example, i'd imagine a fyfe in a spacious (not jam packed) forward line could play a dusty type role if we manage to put it together.
 
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Lach72 said:
A multitude of sins can be covered by a great forward line.

You can attack hard and fast and kick to one on one’s, of the odds say your forwards can win those one on ones.

How successful would Richmond and Geelong be if we swapped our forward line into theirs.

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what do you see in the Collingwood forward line? With the right game plan an open forward 50 with space makes all your forwards and scoring look a hell of a lot better.

It's certainly about the cattle, but it's also about the work environment, and when you have a packed workspace with no room to move, based on predictable and slow ball movement upfield, you get low scores despite repeat entries, which is exactly what we got for the majority of the year.
 
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lint said:
I mean it's not just me who can't see it. Its JL's former head coach. And pretty much the rest of the league and former players and coaches. I think the standard supporter is too quick to see a lack of points and assume it's the forward line's lack of quality. You have to look at the supply, and if there are already 20 odd players, including the primary opposition plus 1 and Ruckman waiting to intercept/destroy in the forward 50 because the supply is too slow, what chance to they have? Maybe the odd crumbed goal from a stoppage and a huge pack of players from a small forward, or a small forward tackle, which is what we sometimes got.

Did you notice most of our goals against Collingwood occurred when we had a 6/6/6 from the centrebounce, before the opposition had time to get back and have the numerical advantage?

Agree re: cattle, but my point is Geelong and Collingwood didn't make huge cattle changes, but really had large coaching (read Richmond influence) shifts. Geelong added a little bit of pace and youth, and of course a gun key forward, but the biggest shift was the moving to swift counter, running together en masse vs possession and territory based percentage football.

Will watch with interest if we manage to go further down that rate next season. For example, i'd imagine a fyfe in a spacious (not jam packed) forward line could play a dusty type role if we manage to put it together.
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Have to agree to disagree (mostly). I do agree that quick movement inside 50 is an advantage especially from a quick centre break but that's certainly no secret to anyone.

Losing Acres who is slow to move the ball will improve us and I expect further improvement from our forwardline and can see us get closer next year to what JL has wanted all along and to what the top teams are doing.
 

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lint said:
what do you see in the Collingwood forward line? With the right game plan an open forward 50 with space makes all your forwards and scoring look a hell of a lot better.

It's certainly about the cattle, but it's also about the work environment, and when you have a packed workspace with no room to move, based on predictable and slow ball movement upfield, you get low scores despite repeat entries, which is exactly what we got for the majority of the year.
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The Collingwood forwardline is good. Much, much better than ours. Agree though that you still need gameplan to maximise efficiency so I hope Graham can improve next year, because I can certainly see it coming in quicker in future.
 
Scham said:
Have to agree to disagree (mostly). I do agree that quick movement inside 50 is an advantage especially from a quick centre break but that's certainly no secret to anyone.

Losing Acres who is slow to move the ball will improve us and I expect further improvement from our forwardline and can see us get closer next year to what JL has wanted all along and to what the top teams are doing.
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Watch how we dispose of the ball from defence next year, that will be the tell-tale sign. I have no problem with Alex Pierce, he's never going to be a great kick and is a superb stopper, and when he takes the game on, stuff happens, even through just charging forward and tapping the ball and looking for the handball and subsequent overlap. Clarke tries, but your Cox and Luke Ryan (as great as they are in many ways as interceptors) neither have the pace to take the game on, nor do they look to hit the target on the run in the corridor. I honestly think Ryan could hit the diagonal kick into the corridor as he has great footskills, he just loves to bomb it down the line too much. Too often our defence at this stage will look to take the safe switch or just bomb it long up the line (often both), sometimes without even looking.

Young and Chapman have the right idea, are very good users. Clarke and Walker help with explosiveness. What happens upfield directly benefits from the risks they take down back. Look at Coleman and Rich in the Brisbane v Melbourne game. Without their risk taking from defence they lose. Like I said, it makes your forward line look a lot better. Your midfield wont get as many touches, but you score, and score heavily.

It's a mentality shift. With Richmond, they know they are going to give up a fair bit doing it, but go for it anyway. Like I said, I will watch with interest to see if we take the game on and play on more from defence next year.
 
lint said:
Nah JL is from the Measured Collingwood Approach that Bucks his former head coach was all about. Bucks himself pointed that out pre the Collingwood final, as the battle of the old Collingwood style vs the new one. It doesn't have the manic pressure and swift surge forward attacking nature that the Geelong's, Collingwood's and Richmond's are playing at the moment. Much much safer and much more percentage based territory and possession football and defensive structure. Doesn't allow many points, but doesn't score many either.

Those teams are playing a Liverpool under Klopp style or Man United under Ferguson style, or even Leicester in their premiership year- hard pressing (under Klopp all over the field), followed by extremely swift and direct counter. We are playing a high possession, methodical, indirect style with extremely solid defence at the moment...an Arsenel under Wenger style if you will - which unfortunately, like that side, is highly susceptible to counter attacking teams (Collingwood anyone?)

Geelong was doing the same for 5 years and then added Grigg from Richmond and look at them now.
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Ironically that’s what Ross was bringing in before he was sacked, full bore corridor usage, high play on percentage, just the cattle didn’t have it and we got opened up too easily and kept turning it over
 
Scham said:
The Collingwood forwardline is good. Much, much better than ours. Agree though that you still need gameplan to maximise efficiency so I hope Graham can improve next year, because I can certainly see it coming in quicker in future.
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hard disagree. It's made a first year 24 year old journeyman midseason draft forward no one wanted call Ash Johnson and a 19 year old second year rookie draft player call Jack Ginivan look like world beaters, add in some solid war horses like Jamie Elliot, Mihocek (rookie deal most his career) and Hoskin-elliot, but hardly superstars.

It's their gameplan that has allowed them to thrive....it's a hell of a lot easier kicking goals when there is about 3-4 players inside your forward 50 and you're on the counter kicking it from the goal square at extreme pace.
 
G Mus said:
Ironically that’s what Ross was bringing in before he was sacked, full bore corridor usage, high play on percentage, just the cattle didn’t have it and we got opened up too easily and kept turning it over
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Unpopular opinion with some, but I'd actually call Ross the Sam Allardyce (Fat Sam) of AFL coaching. Extremely defensive, always looking for the plus 1 or 2 down back, so demanded extreme fitness and flooding backwards in defence throughout a game, leaving his forward(s) (often poor pav) desperately outnumbered. Then very direct coming forward, with little flair or creative license or accent on skills to make for precision counter attacking/scalpel like football.

As a result a team full of very fit, very hard working (a mantra of "effort") players with poor skills, and a therefore a very unattractive, yet highly successful form of football, invariably low scoring. Far from aesthetically pleasing though, and thank god the 6/6/6 rule makes it harder to implement. In contrast, as much as I loathe Collingwood, they have been a pleasure to watch this year.
 
Does Geoff Valentine have a role beyond coaching Peel?

What is undeniable is he got both West Perth and Peel humming offensively. Feels a bit like Don Pyke/David Teague in the sense of being an offensive minded coach- could be useful to counteract what we've got currently in a forward plays or similar role.
 
Scham said:
I'm really surprised you can't see it. He's made no secret of it and we've gone and got Clark even though we had a plethora of running half backs. It's obvious and we see it when we're dominating an opponent.

The only reason it's stifled is we aren't quite there yet player wise. Our defence is fine in most games so there's definitely room for improvement, we don't have enough pace in the midfield yet, and our forwardline is substandard.
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Adding Clark and relegating Wilson is a nil all draw though. Great for the long term because he's younger and he is a slight quality upgrade but playing style it is like for like.

Longmuir has the foundation for a very damaging half back line and when he has unleashed it it is splendid.
 
theGav56 said:
Adding Clark and relegating Wilson is a nil all draw though. Great for the long term because he's younger and he is a slight quality upgrade but playing style it is like for like.

Longmuir has the foundation for a very damaging half back line and when he has unleashed it it is splendid.
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Need to use it more though, Geelong aren't even as fast as us but they look it with the way they move the ball.
 
theGav56 said:
Adding Clark and relegating Wilson is a nil all draw though. Great for the long term because he's younger and he is a slight quality upgrade but playing style it is like for like.

Longmuir has the foundation for a very damaging half back line and when he has unleashed it it is splendid.
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You seriously think he's only unleashed it in certain games and is holding back in others?
 
Falconista said:
Does Geoff Valentine have a role beyond coaching Peel?

What is undeniable is he got both West Perth and Peel humming offensively. Feels a bit like Don Pyke/David Teague in the sense of being an offensive minded coach- could be useful to counteract what we've got currently in a forward plays or similar role.
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Yeah, he helps out with us.

He's a good developer of players. I've got to say that I've been a tad disappointed in his coaching in a few games this year, and Harris has taken his old side to a new level. Whether Harris is getting results off the back of Geoff's work I don't know but I doubt it.
 

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If we need a senior assistant to help JLo, is it worth having a word with Brett Ratten (if we haven't already)? Just left North.

www.afl.com.au

Ratts leaves Roos after one very interesting year

The former Carlton and St Kilda coach has announced he is leaving Arden Street
www.afl.com.au www.afl.com.au
 
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