Opinion Assistant coaching staff Read, Mzungu and Hale need to go. Prove me wrong.

[Crimboy]

Read and Mzungu as development coaches arent in the conversation for top 20 in the AFL , so why arent we targeting best development coaching staff during our 26 year rebuild? And Hale played as the second or third forward in great teams. Why havent we gone after a Mitchell, or Stevie J or to suck in a Pav type of ex player to teach our kids how to kick at goal?

 

[Scham]

Read and Mzungu as development coaches arent in the conversation for top 20 in the AFL , so why arent we targeting best development coaching staff during our 26 year rebuild? And Hale played as the second or third forward in great teams. Why havent we gone after a Mitchell, or Stevie J or to suck in a Pav type of ex player to teach our kids how to kick at goal?

Perhaps you should prove that they aren't up to it.

 

[mattis117]

That's both a lazy and terrible post.

There's nothing to prove wrong except a statement because you've provided no analysis yourself.

 

[Cesoir]

I agree we need to sack somebody, otherwise we are just accepting mediocrity. I vote we get rid of Suzie in accounts for a starter and if that doesn't fix everything we can start going after some of those losers in the merchandise shop.

West Coast's accounts ladies are far superior to ours because their fans just refuse to accept mediocre invoice processing.

 

[Joao]

Read and Mzungu as development coaches arent in the conversation for top 20 in the AFL , so why arent we targeting best development coaching staff during our 26 year rebuild? And Hale played as the second or third forward in great teams. Why havent we gone after a Mitchell, or Stevie J or to suck in a Pav type of ex player to teach our kids how to kick at goal?

Google burden of proof brah.

 

[sumavich]

Quite like Mzungu, always have, always will. First docker to kick a goal in a GF

 

[Docker82]

Top 20 Development Coaches in the league? Isn’t that exactly what we did last season with Matthew Boyd and Joel Corey?

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Our midfield is full of first and second round picks yet we get smashed in there every time we play a decent side. Why is no one questioning Josh Carr’s position at the club? They don’t and they shouldn’t.

Our defence coach was the guy sacked last year when our defence was easily the best part of our side. Given the injuries last year if we use the same logic (or lack of) same posters are using for Hale, Prior should’ve been in line for a senior coaching gig at another club yet he was sacked!

Our forward line sucks because it’s completely devoid of talent. We’ve got Taberner, Lobb, a washed up Walters and a bunch of kids and role players.

I’m sorry but you just can’t judge Assistant Coaches from the television or sitting in the stands.

Can’t help but think people pot Read because they never saw him play footy. It’s logic like this that means that the media continually hire flog ex players who make the footy more enjoyable on mute. He couldn’t play footy - must be a spud at anything footy related.

Rant over.

 

[estibador]

I'd like to see this list of top 20 development coaches in the league.

Methinks it will pretty much be a top 20 list of biggest name former players.

 

[Crimboy]

Its almost amusing to see the level of whine that comes from people who spend more time on here than is healthy. For starters this post is an opinion that is set to start a conversation. Not to hear peoples life stories IDGAF about or trolling without any opinion of their own. An opinion needs no statements to verify it.
But its ok. Since some guys obviously have nothing to offer this statement in rebuttal except whine. I guess this also a problem with some people who consider the failure of this team status quo instead of excelling, and that mentality seems to have seeped into the conversation on BF.

1. Read is the Development and Training Co-ordinator at Freo. And was FORMERLY a forwards development coach for freo
. To be clear for the malcontents who like poking fun at suggestions. Reads lack of football ability doesnt have anything to do with his organisational skills or his ability to be responsible for driving selections to discard players that get less than 5 games at AFL level. (Menegola as a prime example) Hasnt developed or brought in any talent that the team can work with in the forward line and wont ever bring in any talent that will work with the assistants that we have. Its not as simple as picking a Hogan and putting him in the F50 and bam.,...goals! Its about picking someone who fits with what the team needs.

2. Mzungu was the NGA development coach for the under 17s which was essentially a job created for him until he transitioned into a development coach at AFL level. His input is relevant into who gets elevated, who gets games, where kids play, how they play and what their objectives are. Its a completely different kettle of fish and he is simply the Rhys Shaw version of a development coach. 6 years of AFL experience and being a hard runner does not qualify as the best development option out there. Is he in the same calibre as a Black, Swan, Pavlich, Ablett, Didak and even Solomon etc in regards to footy IQ or potential to develop kids?? With lessened staff and more options out there why are we continuing with mediocre?

3. Hale was a shadow for some of the best forwards in the AFL, and was never amongst the best forwards in the game. By the standards set, we might as well put Walters as the forwards coach based on goals scored and forwards played with and teach people how to duck like Wells and Selwood. The whole point of a forwards coach is to execute the vision of the head coach in regards to how to set up, run patterns, how to kick at goal, how to mark in front of goal, how to spread or cluster. Since he took over (2015), we have lost the ability to rove off packs, for small forwards to crumb, for small forwards to drag players away from the 2v1 contests we have. We have also gone from 600 shots at goal to 200+, and accuracy dropped from 56% to 45% (currently). This doesnt include F50 entries which are very similar with I50 rate to shot declining from 2015 from +50% to -45%. Literally still coaching like Lyon is still his boss.

* Prior was sacked because of his pro Lyon approach to smothering D50 and sacrificing F50. Reportedly had no ability to develop relationships with the players in training. Josh Carr hasnt been at the club long enough to be of its detriment which is why people arent calling for him to be sacked. Devoid of talent in the forward line? Agreed, but part of the DEVELOPMENT coaches role, is to find and develop kids into talented players. Hence why READ who has been involved with Development at the dockers for too many years hasnt helped in bringing/developing any decent forwards in his time at the helm or as a recruiter which he started out as. FYI I dont sit in the stands or watch television and think I have the right to judge. I have the right to judge because I dont sit at home and pick my nose and think that armchair footballers know whats going on. I sit in my box at the ground when I go. I talk to the players who are not on the ground. I do my own research and its MY opinion. just like every other person on here is entitled to their own.

As for a top 20 list of development coaches? Borlace, Black, Woewoden, Rooke, Lappin, Newman, Cross, Williams, Hudson, Sexton, Shaw, Nicoski, Bell, Edge, Dyer, Searle, McCartney, Jennings, Mitchell, Grigg. Some arent working in AFL at moment. Even more names? Giansiracua and Selwood. list goes on.

** Disclaimer (which is apparently needed to post due to some people who post on everything to stay relevant) Again, READ the tag as an opinion. If you dont have an opinion either way, and only think that your number of posts makes your input valid, jog on. I for sure, do not need your opinion on my creating a post.

 

[Vintage]

This board needs more crimboy posts.

Prove me wrong.

 

[Dirty_banchez]

We should bring in as assistants:

The Wizard
Hasleby
Sumich

They will be the third triumvirate. They will bring us glory.

 

[Ysaye]

Assumption 1: If our coaches are not Top 20 then they are not worthy of being at the club
Argument against Assumption and Proof by Contradiction: The issue with this argument is that the list of Top 20 assistant coaches will always be relative to the success or otherwise of the club with which they are with, which may have that success for reasons other than themselves. For example, Mark Harvey was considered one of the best assistant coaches (arguable Top 3) during his tenure at Essendon which coincided with a fantastic run for that club. However he made for a particularly unsuccessful assistant and then head coach when he moved to Fremantle. The true question here is, how can one best measure the ability of an assistant coach?

Assumption 2: Coaching success is relative to playing ability/success and therefore poor players make for poor coaches, made in statements such as "....Hale was a shadow for some of the best forwards in the AFL, and was never amongst the best forwards in the game. "
Argument against Assumption 2 and Proof by contradiction: There are many successful coaches that were mediocre or even sometimes arguably poor players and also vice versa. An example of one is Alistair Clarkson who has led Hawthorn to multiple premierships but as a player his biggest thing of note was getting to over 100 games; (David Hale by comparison played more games than him). Chris Fagan never even played VFL/AFL but has had some moderate success with the Brisbane Lions since taking over.

Assumption 3: Declining shots on goal are directly related to poor assistant coaching of the midfield and then forward line.
Argument against Assumption 3 (Proof by contradiction and "Occam's razor" argument): There can be multiple reasons why there are declining shots on goal; this can relate to the supply from the midfield or from the structure of the forward line or even from the ability of the forwards in the forward line itself or a combination of these. It is not clear the movement of Hale from midfield to forward is the direct relationship for the drop in forward entries; the entries were dropping prior to Hale even joining the club in 2016. If anything, a simpler more intuitive explanation for the sudden drop in 2020 (by almost 50%) could be explained by the arrival of Justin Longmuir as the head coach and his strategies.

 

[freo1997]

Pav has to stop this boundary rider business or the news reader gig..and get down and fill a position as skills coach.

 

[wayToGo_]

2020 was Covid. Less games and shorter quarters. Not sure where the 231 shots on goal came from? AFL's stats say 266. 266/17*22=344 * 20/16 = 430.

In 2021, we are tracking at 238 over 9 rounds. 238 / 9 * 22 ~= 582

The 2013-15 numbers include more games due to playing finals.

Shots on goal are trending up under Longmuir. We're on track for a fair few more shots on goal this year than we had in those finals years. Would help if our forwards knew where the big sticks are so that'd translate to the scoreboard.

I don't buy the premise that our poor goal accuracy is due to taking harder shots on goal that a few on here have thrown around (how many easy shots do we miss that other teams you just pencil in before they even take the shot?). I suspect (would love the data to confirm) we are taking a lot more set shots than we have been in past years because our marks inside 50 is higher. But if you are an AFL forward and can't kick a goal 20-40m out from a set shot then something is wrong. Looks mental to me and probably not something you need a psychologist to fix. More like getting the forward line to be a team that has confidence and puts fear into the heart of their defenders as a unit (ie confident mindset).

Being a defender against Freo (other than against Tabs) would have to be the least stressful assignment you'd get all year. Even if you * up and they mark on you, you've got a better than 50/50 chance they'll miss. And if you intercept i50 you only have to contend with the AFL's weakest forward line pressure. The only downside is kick-ins because Freo's mids and defenders generally set up quite well. Yeah you'll endure some repeat i50s but again stress little because the forwards you are opposing are sweating bullets scared shitless they might have to take a shot on goal.

 

[Joao]

It's too difficult to make a causal link as a supporter. You need to show that to get me interested.

 

[Outshined]

Have to admit this is one of the more entertaining threads in recent memory.

 

[Cesoir]

There's a couple of posts there you haven't disliked yet Crimboy - best get on to it!

 

[Bring back Drum]

Longmuir was a very good development coach in his own right & im sure will work out who’s coaching well & who’s not & replace where necessary.

I don’t think coaching is our issue personally, whilst our skill level as improved, our decision making & a lack of composure at important times costing us dearly. Not to mention our finishing in front of goals.

As disappointing as it was to lose that game v Essendon, we headed them in most of the statistics that point to a win which indicates it’s an on field issue. We dominated more periods of the game but couldn’t put them away & then choked in the last quarter.

As already mentioned player selection, particularly up forward can be questioned, but again the bottom line is we gave ourselves enough opportunities to win that last game, we just lack composure which can be improved with experience & intense training drills.

The focus for us as supporters should be on our list management & who needs to be replaced & with what type of player.

 

[Bigger]

Bring Back Drum, more on the money than Queen Elizabeth.

 

[Mr Cheese]

There is nothing more campaignerish than a post that ends "prove me wrong". Prove me wrong.

 

[stax on the mull]

2020 was Covid. Less games and shorter quarters. Not sure where the 231 shots on goal came from? AFL's stats say 266. 266/17*22=344 * 20/16 = 430.

Graph is garbage.

Those shot on goals stats are just aggregate totals of points and goals for each season. The 231 is based on Fremantle scoring 127.104 for the 2020 season in all games.

As you point out he's included his own stat for this years total of 213 (96.117) based on the same methodology which is only after 9 rounds to exaggerate the decline.

2020's steep decline is basically due to a shorter season with shorter games.

 

[Crimboy]

Graph is garbage.

Those shot on goals stats are just aggregate totals of points and goals for each season. The 231 is based on Fremantle scoring 127.104 for the 2020 season in all games.

As you point out he's included his own stat for this years total of 213 (96.117) based on the same methodology which is only after 9 rounds to exaggerate the decline.

2020's steep decline is basically due to a shorter season with shorter games.

Obviously another nuffy. Accuracy % conversion is the important one which an obvious numpty would ignore. Shots at goal is to show just that, shots at goals based on points/goals. It doesnt include ~50 shots average per year that are OOB. But keep jumping on the #Ineedfriends bandwagon. Doesnt bother me for the people who spam posts

 

[wayToGo_]

You don't need to attack people Crimboy. I don't disagree with your analysis but you can't put up a graph that isn't accurate and expect people to just accept it.

Both the shots on goal and the goal accuracy you have presented are incorrect. You haven't normalised 2020 due to Covid to make the comparison relevant. Nor have you projected 2021 based on only 9 rounds to date. Nor have you factored more games in a season due to finals. Use per game averages and adjust 2020 and you have a normalised data set that you can then analyse fairly.

Year / Per Game Average	Goal Accuracy	Shots on Goal
2013	52.0	25.8
2014	49.8	26.5
2015	51.7	23.6
2016	49.0	21.0
2017	49.3	21.3
2018	46.4	22.0
2019	44.0	23.2
2020 (normalised due to Covid impact)	47.7	19.5
2021	40.3	26.4

 

[Crimboy]

You don't need to attack people Crimboy. I don't disagree with your analysis but you can't put up a graph that isn't accurate and expect people to just accept it.

Both the shots on goal and the goal accuracy you have presented are incorrect. You haven't normalised 2020 due to Covid to make the comparison relevant. Nor have you projected 2021 based on only 9 rounds to date. Nor have you factored more games in a season due to finals. Use per game averages and adjust 2020 and you have a normalised data set that you can then analyse fairly.

Year / Per Game Average	Goal Accuracy	Shots on Goal
2013	52.0	25.8
2014	49.8	26.5
2015	51.7	23.6
2016	49.0	21.0
2017	49.3	21.3
2018	46.4	22.0
2019	44.0	23.2
2020 (normalised due to Covid impact)	47.7	19.5
2021	40.3	26.4

Fair call and better data manipulation (but doesnt disprove what I asked of people in the first place, who decided that instead of offering up what you have, just criticise and whine and jump on the #metoo lifestyle). The intention of an "opinion" which is the tag used, is to get debate on the subject matter. Not have to reply to people who just want to vent their anger at having no friends in life on a forum for football. But thank you for having better data and putting it into a table that wasnt rushed because of the immediate whinge hate mob screaming for something.

 

[GingerDocker]

Fair call and better data manipulation (but doesnt disprove what I asked of people in the first place, who decided that instead of offering up what you have, just criticise and whine and jump on the #metoo lifestyle). The intention of an "opinion" which is the tag used, is to get debate on the subject matter. Not have to reply to people who just want to vent their anger at having no friends in life on a forum for football. But thank you for having better data and putting it into a table that wasnt rushed because of the immediate whinge hate mob screaming for something.

You have your opinion - tick
Others have opinions that vary to some degree - tick

The outrage and bluster that flows from this dynamic is bizarre.