Assisted Dying Laws

[Messenger]

No it doesn't.

Many actions have wildly disproportionate reactions.

This board is living proof.

 

[AM]

Not all parties have to be nefarious - there can be well meaning people along the way. The collusion can come about through one person manipulating each stage, and people unwittingly colluding out of good intentions.

The safeguards rely on the Swiss cheese model of risk management. This is robust enough if each layer is mutually independent of the other, but given time that is unlikely. Among people willing to be euthanised for conditions outside the spectrum of those permitted, word will spread about how to game the system. That knowledge will not remain solely in the hands of those willing to be euthanised.

As a person who wants to live, but may at some point want to be euthanised, the doctors I would want to sign off on my euthanasia would be those who only do so reluctantly, as the absolute last alternative. I'd want them to agree that there is literally no other option. Unfortunately, it is more than likely such doctors will self-select out of the pool of doctors willing to give sign off. And of the set remaining, there would be a subset more sympathetic to euthanasia, who may even believe that the legislation and framework is too narrow and rigid and that they have a duty to help people who really need assisted suicide, but don't quite meet the prescribed set of circumstances.

The last of the filters are the relative and independent person, but I hope you would agree that it is not too hard to imagine collusion or manipulation in these events. And as stated earlier, people in desperate circumstances can be convinced to go against their better instincts.

The review board only has the capability of checking whether each part of the process was followed according to the framework. From what I can tell they have very little investigative powers. Only glaring inconsistencies would be flagged. Everything can be manipulated, fudged and misreported. Sometimes out of best intentions. Pretending otherwise is ignorance.

You appear to have difficulty in understanding it is you who would decide whether you want to be assisted to die in the limited circumstances allowed by the proposed legislation. Not your treating doctor. Not an independent medical practitioner. It's you. If you decide you wish not to be assisted in your journeys end in the most unremittingly painful of circumstances, then it's your choice. No one else's. Choice is at the centre of it all, something those who promulgate straw man arguments and/or dog whistles wish to deny those of us who have a different view.

 

[King Brown]

You appear to have difficulty in understanding it is you who would decide whether you want to be assisted to die in the limited circumstances allowed by the proposed legislation. Not your treating doctor. Not an independent medical practitioner. It's you. If you decide you wish not to be assisted in your journeys end in the most unremittingly painful of circumstances, then it's your choice. No one else's. Choice is at the centre of it all, something those who promulgate straw man arguments and/or dog whistles wish to deny those of us who have a different view.

I completely understand that the individual has choice, my point is and has been all along, that people in these situations are desperate, depressed and can be convinced to make decisions against their better judgement.

I don’t care how unremittingly painful a persons circumstances are if assisting them into death risks the death of someone who otherwise would not want to die. You do.

Just be open and honest with your ethics. Stop pretending there are no downsides.

 

[AM]

I completely understand that the individual has choice, my point is and has been all along, that people in these situations are desperate, depressed and can be convinced to make decisions against their better judgement.

I don’t care how unremittingly painful a persons circumstances are if assisting them into death risks the death of someone who otherwise would not want to die. You do.

Just be open and honest with your ethics. Stop pretending there are no downsides.

The reason everyone I know supports talking to your loved ones about these matters well in advance is to be prepared in case your journey ends this way. Even making a living will. No one who is pro the legislation is talking absolute in these matters. That is why the word far-fetched was used. One you appear to have some difficulty with.

It's not absolutely impossible for you to be hit with a meteorite, but it would be far-fetched to suggest it is plausible.

Anyway, congratulations on moving the conversation from the central issue with your misdirection and dog whistling.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Laws Schmaws.

I.V. 10-12ml of 5M KCl and the jobs done

 

[Pie eyed]

It strikes my as strange these have to be constantly referred to as "assisted" dying laws.
What would be wrong with calling a spade a spade.
It's the right to decide when you die. I find it offensive the do gooders want to place the decision in the hands of yet more bureaucrats.
They are the very people we should be the most untrusting of.

 

[AM]

It strikes my as strange these have to be constantly referred to as "assisted" dying laws.
What would be wrong with calling a spade a spade.
It's the right to decide when you die. I find it offensive the do gooders want to place the decision in the hands of yet more bureaucrats.
They are the very people we should be the most untrusting of.

It's because many folk need assistance because their condition has deteriorated to a point where they are unable to fulfil their wishes unaided. Added to which most would not know a way of ending the journey with certainty, comfortably and in a soothing manner.

The reason for the checks and balances is to ensure there is no malfeasance.

 

[Thats Wright]

Interesting Victoria cracking down on first time .05-.07 drink driving at the same time as killing old people.

Make it easier to lose your job when there's less jobs about and easier to lose your life when there's too many people.

The garden state taking fertilizer to another level.

 

[AM]

Interesting Victoria cracking down on first time .05-.07 drink driving at the same time as killing old people.

Make it easier to lose your job when there's less jobs about and easier to lose your life when there's too many people.

The garden state taking fertilizer to another level.

Is there a trophy for the BF post containing the most disjointed drivel? If so, my vote goes to this one.

 

[King Brown]

The reason everyone I know supports talking to your loved ones about these matters well in advance is to be prepared in case your journey ends this way. Even making a living will. No one who is pro the legislation is talking absolute in these matters. That is why the word far-fetched was used. One you appear to have some difficulty with.

Basing what you consider to be farfetched and reasonable on what people around you think is fairly limiting.

Anyway, congratulations on moving the conversation from the central issue with your misdirection and dog whistling.

I don't think you know what these terms mean.

 

[Thats Wright]

Is there a trophy for the BF post containing the most disjointed drivel? If so, my vote goes to this one.

The difference between being .049 and .050 for a first 'offender' will soon become automatic loss of license for 3 months as well as an expensive immobilizer for 6 months. US levels of harsh.

The punishment for such a trivial difference is related to the police state and disarray we are subjected to in recent times. Thanks for that.

Some people need their license to remain employed and some cannot afford the constant payments (especially without a job). I assume you're one of those whiny types (apologies if not) so its strange you're potting on this one, but kicking young folk in the bag for what is basically equal to a legal alcohol reading (first offense) is unnecessary, and as your type often allude to, can lead to a spiral into hopelessness or potentially worse (bigfooty addiction).

The piling up of corpses is reflective of the garden state needing sustenance and loading up the truck with the unlucky and what you could call oldies.

 

[AM]

The difference between being .049 and .050 for a first 'offender' will soon become automatic loss of license for 3 months as well as an expensive immobilizer for 6 months. US levels of harsh.

The punishment for such a trivial difference is related to the police state and disarray we are subjected to in recent times. Thanks for that.

Some people need their license to remain employed and some cannot afford the constant payments (especially without a job). I assume you're one of those whiny types (apologies if not) so its strange you're potting on this one, but kicking young folk in the bag for what is basically equal to a legal alcohol reading (first offense) is unnecessary, and as your type often allude to, can lead to a spiral into hopelessness or potentially worse (bigfooty addiction).

The piling up of corpses is reflective of the garden state needing sustenance and loading up the truck with the unlucky and what you could call oldies.

You should start a thread on the matters of concern to you. We might even have some common ground. However, conflating them with this thread is where we part company.

I don't think you know what these terms mean.

You are certainly entitled to think say that, but you'd be wrong again.

 

[Thats Wright]

You should start a thread on the matters of concern to you. Matters largely unrelated to the discussion here though.

Somewhat related as Dan Andrews can never escape being a massive, potentially dangerous nerd.

'You have insufficient....'. Mal would thread ban me like usual. He can't cope with the secession movement now the boom has slowed down.

 

[AM]

Somewhat related as Dan Andrews can never escape being a massive, potentially dangerous nerd.

'You have insufficient....'. Mal would thread ban me like usual. He can't cope with the secession movement now the boom has slowed down.

Entirely off topic. Take your trolling elsewhere.

 

[Thats Wright]

Entirely off topic. Take your trolling elsewhere.

Not trolling. This Victoria first 'killing' or otherwise is dangerous territory.

You keen to off people?

 

[Pie eyed]

I

It's because many folk need assistance because their condition has deteriorated to a point where they are unable to fulfil their wishes unaided. Added to which most would not know a way of ending the journey with certainty, comfortably and in a soothing manner.

The reason for the checks and balances is to ensure there is no malfeasance.

understand that.
My point is the laws are being heavily weighted to be under the heel of alleged "experts".
The way they are being framed is basically leaving peoples wish to end their lives in the hands of those who cannot or will not let them die already.
Just another layer of interference, with the focus on making at hard and drawn out as possible.

Anyone involved in these decisions should be forced to so so gratis for starters otherwise they are juts creating another industry for the "health" professionals, passing those who wish to die from "specialist" to "specialist" while they line their pockets.
I my sound negative but these are the facts of the current health system, a round-about of endless referrals to mates to fleece the Gold Card system and those well insured.

 

[skilts]

Interesting Victoria cracking down on first time .05-.07 drink driving at the same time as killing old people.

Make it easier to lose your job when there's less jobs about and easier to lose your life when there's too many people.

The garden state taking fertilizer to another level.

No s**t?

 

[Thats Wright]

No s**t?

Should be after the Tigers win/loss.

Kill 2 birds with pensions/traffic congestion.

 

[AM]

I understand that.

My point is the laws are being heavily weighted to be under the heel of alleged "experts".

That's simply not the case. The choice is absolutely in the hands of the person who is suffering.

I'm assuming you haven't read the findings of the comprehensive parliamentary report called "Inquiry into end of life choices" or the draft assisted dying with dignity bill on which it's based as both make that fact abundantly clear.

The way they are being framed is basically leaving peoples wish to end their lives in the hands of those who cannot or will not let them die already.

Just another layer of interference, with the focus on making at hard and drawn out as possible.

Anyone involved in these decisions should be forced to so so gratis for starters otherwise they are juts creating another industry for the "health" professionals, passing those who wish to die from "specialist" to "specialist" while they line their pockets.

I my sound negative but these are the facts of the current health system, a round-about of endless referrals to mates to fleece the Gold Card system and those well insured.

Apart from the crudeness in your comment, the proposed legislation does not "create another industry for health professionals". It merely allows those health professionals presently in the system and who possess the compassion to follow the wishes of a patient with a terminal condition and who is suffering unbearably legal protection, under the most onerous conditions, so he/she can follow the wishes of that patient.

All of those who have or are going through this horrific time (or those close to them) and who have had the courage to recount their experiences have spoken of how coping with impending death would be (or have been) so much more comforting and less stressful in the knowledge they could give effect to their wishes at the time of their choosing.

It's so disappointing that politicians like Fitzherbert and Finn place their fundamentalist religious zealotry above that of the suffering of others and the views of the overwhelming majority of their constituents as survey after survey has illustrated. That is not so surprising on the part of Finn who once went to the hospital bedside of a woman he did not know who had decided to have a termination on medical grounds in an attempt to stop her proceeding by intimidation. Dregs of the earth is that creature.

 

[mellowyellow]

Finally. It would seem it will also pass the Upper House given some amendments

 

[Pessimistic]

Will life prisoners one day be afforded the option?

 

[Snake_Baker]

Will life prisoners one day be afforded the option?

Life in prison is not a death sentence.

 

[Run n Spread]

Life in prison is not a death sentence.

It's worse.

 

[Run n Spread]

you are definitely right, it is the issue of those left behind.

I'm probably in a minority but I'd allow assisted dying for those that wanted to commit suicide. I don't see any difference between physical pain, incapacitation, mental pain and oh it's Monday morning I'd rather check out than go to work.

I originally thought you were off your ******* tree when you posted this.

Now not sure. If people generally (themselves and only ever then want it) want it go for it. Who is some Politician and/or Stranger to deny.

Now I'm still young, hip and cool (frankly who on this forum doesn't want to be me) but in however many years I want the option I'm taking it. Life is not easy/never has been. I'm all for Individualism and Civil Rights.

 

[Power Raid]

I originally thought you were off your ******* tree when you posted this.

Now not sure. If people generally (themselves and only ever then want it) want it go for it. Who is some Politician and/or Stranger to deny.

Now I'm still young, hip and cool (frankly who on this forum doesn't want to be me) but in however many years I want the option I'm taking it. Life is not easy/never has been. I'm all for Individualism and Civil Rights.

I worked with a guy, a chef in the navy, who tried to blow his head off with a pump action.

He changed his mind at the last minute, pulling the gun from the right position but still pulling the trigger. He blew most of his lower face away including his lower jaw right off.

When he returned to work, it was a horrible sight seeing the disfigurement and the saliva just falling from his head.

Despite the support from medical staff and mates, he finished the job by shot gun within the year.

Another guy at hmas penguin, smashed the circular window of a 1930s type elevator, stuck his head through a decapitated himself.

Another tied a pump to his leg and through it overboard.

A friends husband and dad of two just left the dinner table and hung himself whilst the wife feeding the kids.


I guess, I just take the view that a clean, controlled, painless way is better than going out alone, scared and desperate way. Hopefully this also reduces trauma on the family.