Bumped Random Chat - I want BBQ

[Russian Demon]

I’m randomly weighing in here because my mother wants to watch The Crown and I’m not that into it.

I would have said I was on the same side as Toump Ass on this, but I must say you have somehow crystallised the better arguments for the status quo and I’m close to swayed by them. I don’t know exactly what Australia Day is, but it’s difficult to escape colonisation as fairly fundamental to it. The notion of diversity and inclusion wouldn’t need promoting without the original event to have brought about ‘modern day’ Australia, and shifting the date of the holiday does nothing to change the reality. I also suspect that campaigning to change or remove colonial symbols is something of a middle-class intellectual luxury (I’ve generally been inclined to tag along with all similar campaigns) but when I think about it I suspect it may not be in the forefront of pressing need for the part of the population that the campaign for change is supposedly for.

I love this board people people are articulate and tend not to name call.

Tbh i can see both sides, but i worry a bit we focus too much on the feels and not enough of the hard solution.

What folks think indigenous communities need? What do they say they need?

 

[Toump Ass]

It would only require a small percentage of the majority of the population to care and you would have more people upset, whether you believe it or not. 1 in 25 from the balance would do it even if 100% of the indigenous population cared, which I doubt they do (I'm not including those who choose to get offended on behalf of others). You say Australia Day doesn't mean anything to the majority of Australians - I would think that statement would hold equally true for your side of the equation.

Alright: if people are going to be upset, tell me why. As it stands, I'm yet to see a compelling reason the anniversary of the First Fleet arriving should be our national day given the date we actually became a nation was January 1st, and given the current date alienates the majority of aboriginal people (and I do believe it is the majority, based on polls published in the Guardian). "It's the status quo" just isn't good enough for me, sorry.

Do you think there are people around today who can trace their family history back to the first fleet?

Probably not- but I do know a few who need only go back a generation or two to find relatives murdered or dispossessed, and this is what the arrival of the first fleet symbolises to them.

Of course changing the date won't bring anyone back from the dead, but it might help educate some on the issues facing current indigenous Australians along with some of the historical context around their troubles.

Its a significant event for the aboriginal people because Europeans arrived, and its a significant event to European Australians because Europeans arrived.

... and like a large number of our population, I'm neither.

Perhaps another reason why I believe other historical events- such as when Australia became a nation- would be a more appropriate national day?

Its disingenuous to keep using the word "move" when you really mean "change". If you want to change Australia Day, what would you like it changed to? I'm sure there are plenty of inoffensive, inclusive options on the table, but would the majority of people vote to swap Australia Day for National Pavlova Day? I would hope not.

Not disingenuous at all; I would hope that moving the date would make it more inclusive. I don't see why representing all Australians, not just European Australians, is a bad thing?

Perhaps the majority isn't ready for it now, but then we only passed a same sex marriage law three weeks ago...

There are two holidays in January... not sure how that is "too many"...

Because it's right after the Christmas/boxing day public holidays during a period where I do * all anyway?

And for what it's worth, I'd gladly give up the Horse Racing holiday, even without a replacement![/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[Cannon82]

Alright: if people are going to be upset, tell me why. As it stands, I'm yet to see a compelling reason the anniversary of the First Fleet arriving should be our national day given the date we actually became a nation was January 1st, and given the current date alienates the majority of aboriginal people (and I do believe it is the majority, based on polls published in the Guardian). "It's the status quo" just isn't good enough for me, sorry.

Polls published in the Graun... good heavens. I've already mentioned that I'm not worried about people who get offended on other's behalf, and you're telling me the poll you're using to estimate the number of affected people comes from the Guardian whose 'Comment is Free' readership is composed almost entirely of inner-city suburbanites looking to get offended / self-flagellate over imagined guilt. Pardon my cynicism, but that's about as representative of the indigenous population as taking a poll of the local bridge club.

Whether it's good enough for you or not, the idea is not to go changing things on a whim.

Probably not- but I do know a few who need only go back a generation or two to find relatives murdered or dispossessed, and this is what the arrival of the first fleet symbolises to them.

Of course changing the date won't bring anyone back from the dead, but it might help educate some on the issues facing current indigenous Australians along with some of the historical context around their troubles.

I don't quite understand how people with relatives murdered and dispossessed are connecting those events with ships landing a couple of hundred years ago instead of with the actual perpetrators of the deeds in the here and now. I would hope no one wants to go down the path of legislating / making decisions based on symbolism. And with the second point, how is this connected to Australia Day / the first fleet landing? You just want more awareness / education for indigenous Australians - why does this have to come at the expense of Australia's colonial history?

... and like a large number of our population, I'm neither.

Perhaps another reason why I believe other historical events- such as when Australia became a nation- would be a more appropriate national day?

Yes, Australia's current population is drawn from all corners of the globe these days. That you're from elsewhere is neither here nor there; there are plenty of people here who are of European ancestry.

I can't see New Years Day getting bumped from the calendar.

Not disingenuous at all; I would hope that moving the date would make it more inclusive. I don't see why representing all Australians, not just European Australians, is a bad thing?

Perhaps the majority isn't ready for it now, but then we only passed a same sex marriage law three weeks ago...

It's not a bad thing, but there are plenty of other ways it can be done without removing a key date in Australia's history. Australia celebrated its bicentenary in 1988 which I vaguely remember as a five odd year old. Like it or not, that's when the colony was founded, and people who came here in subsequent times (such as my relos) should acknowledge that rather than try to erase it. I really don't get your train of thought on this - seems like you've put Indigenous issues / culture up on a pedestal and deemed the reasoning unquestionable.

You talk about wanting to educate Australians more about aboriginal culture and issues, and I'm sure there are ways this can be done without supplanting our colonial history. Like it or not, it happened, and changing dates / moving holidays yada yada is tiptoeing around the actual issues.

Because it's right after the Christmas/boxing day public holidays during a period where I do **** all anyway?

And for what it's worth, I'd gladly give up the Horse Racing holiday, even without a replacement!

I'm a fan of public holidays and not excited about giving any up. Corporations get their share of blood from stones these days so the more prescribed time off, the better.

 

[Toump Ass]

Polls published in the Graun... good heavens. I've already mentioned that I'm not worried about people who get offended on other's behalf, and you're telling me the poll you're using to estimate the number of affected people comes from the Guardian whose 'Comment is Free' readership is composed almost entirely of inner-city suburbanites looking to get offended / self-flagellate over imagined guilt. Pardon my cynicism, but that's about as representative of the indigenous population as taking a poll of the local bridge club.

It's a poll conducted by an independent research company, not by the Guardian themselves.

But all the same, why don't the opinions of inner-city suburbanites matter? Can we ignore the opinion of outer-city flag-waving Shannon Noll & Pauline Hanson fans as well? Are we at that "identity politics" thing we both said we didn't like yet?

Whether it's good enough for you or not, the idea is not to go changing things on a whim.

40,000 people marched in Sydney protesting Australia Day in 1988. The first Day of Mourning protest occurred January 26th 1938.

It's not a "whim".

By comparison, I think the idea of changing things if only to be a little bit more sensitive to an indigenous population is adequate, even if it won't suddenly fix our indigenous issues.

I don't quite understand how people with relatives murdered and dispossessed are connecting those events with ships landing a couple of hundred years ago instead of with the actual perpetrators of the deeds in the here and now. I would hope no one wants to go down the path of legislating / making decisions based on symbolism. And with the second point, how is this connected to Australia Day / the first fleet landing? You just want more awareness / education for indigenous Australians - why does this have to come at the expense of Australia's colonial history?

Changing the date is not removing Australia's colonial history.

The effects of the ships landing are still being felt in the here and now.

Yes, Australia's current population is drawn from all corners of the globe these days. That you're from elsewhere is neither here nor there; there are plenty of people here who are of European ancestry.

There's plenty of people who are not of European ancestry. Can we find a national day that recognises and celebrates their contribution to modern Australia as well?

I can't see New Years Day getting bumped from the calendar.

Queens birthday isn't celebrated on the Queens birthday. We can keep a public holiday at the end of January and make our national day the date of federation.

Or we could change the date to when the White Australia policy ended, or Eureka Day, or when indigenous people were represented in the constitution, or when we ceased being a British Colony, or when we invented Pavlova/Cricket/Vegemite/The Esky/The Hills Hoist/whatever, or the day Robbie Flower was born, or any day that's not entirely dismissive of indigenous people...

It's not a bad thing, but there are plenty of other ways it can be done without removing a key date in Australia's history. Australia celebrated its bicentenary in 1988 which I vaguely remember as a five odd year old. Like it or not, that's when the colony was founded, and people who came here in subsequent times (such as my relos) should acknowledge that rather than try to erase it.

Choosing a more inclusive day isn't removing a key date in Australia's history nor erasing what happened. And given most people aren't even aware of what anniversary Australia Day falls on, I don't see how it's a major issue to change the historical event the day commemorates.

I really don't get your train of thought on this - seems like you've put Indigenous issues / culture up on a pedestal and deemed the reasoning unquestionable.

I feel you've been somewhat dismissive as well.

But for what it's worth, I don't think our indigenous culture is adequately represented, particularly wrt to this issue.

Anyway mate, you raise some interesting points but I'm just about done on this one I think!

 

[Cannon82]

It's a poll conducted by an independent research company, not by the Guardian themselves.

But all the same, why don't the opinions of inner-city suburbanites matter? Can we ignore the opinion of outer-city flag-waving Shannon Noll & Pauline Hanson fans as well? Are we at that "identity politics" thing we both said we didn't like yet?

Got a link to it? I'm curious.

Fine if its not a Graun poll - point is you're not getting a decent sample of the population if its through a biased rag like the Guardian. For the record though I think everyone's opinion is equally worthless.

40,000 people marched in Sydney protesting Australia Day in 1988. The first Day of Mourning protest occurred January 26th 1938.

40,000 out of a population of how many in Sydney? Less than were out celebrating the event, I'd imagine.

Changing the date is not removing Australia's colonial history.

The effects of the ships landing are still being felt in the here and now.

You've gone back to the "changing the date" argument. You want to get rid of Australia Day in its current form for something more "inclusive"; this is not changing the date, this is substitution for something bland and inoffensive.

How are the effects still being felt now? If you mean there are white European people around, then yes, the "effects" are still being felt now. How does playing around with public holidays change that?

There's plenty of people who are not of European ancestry. Can we find a national day that recognises and celebrates their contribution to modern Australia as well?

Queens birthday isn't celebrated on the Queens birthday. We can keep a public holiday at the end of January and make our national day the date of federation.

Or we could change the date to when the White Australia policy ended, or Eureka Day, or when indigenous people were represented in the constitution, or when we ceased being a British Colony, or when we invented Pavlova/Cricket/Vegemite/The Esky/The Hills Hoist/whatever, or the day Robbie Flower was born, or any day that's not entirely dismissive of indigenous people...

There are plenty of people here who are of European ancestry. I don't understand why we're jumping through hoops to appease a tiny fraction of the population... and appease is probably too strong a word here because shuffling public holidays around achieves absolutely nothing. Why the focus on it?

I feel you've been somewhat dismissive as well.

But for what it's worth, I don't think our indigenous culture is adequately represented, particularly wrt to this issue.

Anyway mate, you raise some interesting points but I'm just about done on this one I think!

Yes, that'd probably be because I don't care about indigenous history, just I like I don't care about European or Chinese or Samoan history. The basis for your argument seems to be that we need to be more "inclusive", "aware", "educated" on aboriginal culture. Why don't we need to be aware of our own colonial history? You're dismissing one in favour of the other out of your own personal preference, which is fine, but not everyone shares your point of view.

Yes, let's call it, clearly not getting anywhere.

 

[Crimson Azure]

 

[Cannon82]

It did? I prefer to be blunt, and its way too much effort to try to soften or couch the language in a more agreeable style. Easier to get the point across.

 

[Proper Gander]

It did? I prefer to be blunt, and its way too much effort to try to soften or couch the language in a more agreeable style. Easier to get the point across.

You’re the hero this board needs

 

[Crimson Azure]

It did? I prefer to be blunt, and its way too much effort to try to soften or couch the language in a more agreeable style. Easier to get the point across.

That post was meant as a joke. It's a random chat thread, so anyone can discuss whatever they want in a robust manner.

 

[Tulip]

Since when has Australia Day been about celebrating inclusiveness and diversity? The "nuance" on both those terms is very, very recent.

To be fair, this is the main argument made by Conservative politicians who say we don't need to change the date.

I also don't really buy that any other day would introduce '10 more problems'.

January 26th was the day that the First Fleet arrived, and Governer Phillip planted the Union Jack. It essentially marks the day that a 150-year genocide commenced. Its not about whether those who suffered directly are still alive, its about the fact that the descendants of a culture that was about 50,000 years old were forced to abandon their traditions within a few generations.

I'd understand a little more if people had been celebrating on 26/01 with their family since the days of yore, but it started in '94. Why is shifting the date of an offensive tradition that everyone under 30 remembers living without such a big deal?

 

[Toump Ass]

Got a link to it? I'm curious.

Of course: go ahead and take it apart all you like:
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-and-name-of-australia-day-changed-poll-finds.

I've seen other polls referenced elsewhere, I'm sure you'll find them if you look.

You've gone back to the "changing the date" argument. You want to get rid of Australia Day in its current form for something more "inclusive"; this is not changing the date, this is substitution for something bland and inoffensive.

Changing Australia Day to celebrate more than the first fleet isn't making it "bland"; it would make no difference to the majority of people, who don't even know what Australia Day is commemorating. But in any case- bland and inoffensive is better than bland and offensive, right?

Yes, changing the date is changing Australia Day. That's a good thing- it's our national day. And this is the fundamental issue for me: I don't agree that Australia Day needs to be solely about colonisation. It can (and should) be more than that.

How are the effects still being felt now? How does playing around with public holidays change that?

With colonisation, the aboriginal population was decimated, land was stolen, diseases/alcohol introduced. Racism is rife. This trauma will exist for a while.

Changing the dates won't to fix these issues, but it might bring a little awareness or perspective of indigenous issues, which hopefully is a step towards reconciliation. In any case, given the anger and sorrow felt on January 26th by many, celebrating Australia on this date is clearly not helping either.

There are plenty of people here who are of European ancestry. I don't understand why we're jumping through hoops to appease a tiny fraction of the population... and appease is probably too strong a word here because shuffling public holidays around achieves absolutely nothing. Why the focus on it?

It's a tiny fraction of the population, but an important one.

Australia Day in it's current form doesn't achieve anything either; except cause shitty debates and piss off a bunch of people who had devastating things happen to them and their families.

Yes, that'd probably be because I don't care about indigenous history, just I like I don't care about European or Chinese or Samoan history. The basis for your argument seems to be that we need to be more "inclusive", "aware", "educated" on aboriginal culture. Why don't we need to be aware of our own colonial history? You're dismissing one in favour of the other out of your own personal preference, which is fine, but not everyone shares your point of view.

We do need to be aware of our colonial history- especially the bit where we completely ****ed over an indigenous population and are currently occupying their lands without a treaty

But seriously: I'm not dismissing colonial history by suggesting a national day that incorporates non-Europeans settlers as well.

Anyway, I'm done. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Cannon82]

Well, if this poll (conducted exclusively for the Graun!) is anything to go by, it's less of an issue then you say it is.

The poll found that the majority (68%) felt positive about Australia Day, 19% indifferent and 7% had mixed feelings about the event while 6% of people felt negative about Australia Day.

Older people (over the age of 60) were more likely to feel positive about Australia Day (79%) while younger people (aged 18 to 39) were slightly less positive (61%) and more likely to be indifferent about Australia Day (22%).

But among Aboriginal Australians and people from the Torres Strait Islands, less than a quarter (23%) felt positive about Australia Day and 31% felt negative about it. A further 30% said they had mixed feelings about Australia Day.

68% of people overall felt positive about Australia Day while only 6% felt negative. 15% of people polled were in favour of change.

Amongst the indigenous population 31% felt negative and 30% had mixed feelings. 54% of those polled were in favour of change.

So only half the people who are suffering today want to change the day, and roughly 1 in 6 overall want to change the day. If it went to a vote on what to do right now, nothing would change (if this poll is even ballpark representative). So all in all, seems you lads feel more strongly about this than a large percentage of the indigenous population do.

 

[PerfectFooty]

Wow, what a debate i sparked from calling Triple M Stupid

 

[Toump Ass]

I love this board people people are articulate and tend not to name call.

Tbh i can see both sides, but i worry a bit we focus too much on the feels and not enough of the hard solution.

What folks think indigenous communities need? What do they say they need?

That's the real question, isn't it.

Obviously I think improving the relationship between indigenous and non-indigenous Australians would be helpful.

I don't know what's currently taught in schools re: indigenous history, but I remember my teacher using the word "boongs" back in the mid-90's and I'd like to think the education system has evolved somewhat . Indigenous issues weren't addressed at all; there was nothing about dispossession, institutionalised racism, the stolen generation, or ongoing violence/racism. How do you build support for helping indigenous communities when most people are unaware an issue even exists?

I wish I had the answers. It's a depressing state of affairs!

 

[Proper Gander]

Wow, what a debate i sparked from calling Triple M Stupid

Triple M is stupid. Come at me!

 

[LeverPuller]

Got Total War Warhammer II from the fat guy in the red suit. The mega campaign is goddamn huge.

 

[Toump Ass]

All I got was an MFC snow globe

 

[Proper Gander]

I got a kitchenaid stick blender with 5 attachments, from people who seem to think I have no teeth. And a harmonica. I’m not certain why.

 

[Topkent]

I can tell you from first hand experience pandering to outrageous indigenous demands don't work. In Canada the native people have mass tax benefits here, free schooling etc and it hasn't helped in the slightest because they are now raised in a culture of putting their hands out. Not only that but they have a reserve sometimes multiple in every town. A designated land is tax free, semi policed by themselves and they control the alcohol and cigarette sales etc. Basically just burn the houses down because the government rebuilds them and they get cheap booze to turn them into alcoholics. Violence and assault is rife an it's uncomfortable being around a vast majority of them.

You can't have equality with skin colour when you still get benefits for it.

 

[Crimson Azure]

I can tell you from first hand experience pandering to outrageous indigenous demands don't work. In Canada the native people have mass tax benefits here, free schooling etc and it hasn't helped in the slightest because they are now raised in a culture of putting their hands out. Not only that but they have a reserve sometimes multiple in every town. A designated land is tax free, semi policed by themselves and they control the alcohol and cigarette sales etc. Basically just burn the houses down because the government rebuilds them and they get cheap booze to turn them into alcoholics. Violence and assault is rife an it's uncomfortable being around a vast majority of them.

You can't have equality with skin colour when you still get benefits for it.

I was talking to a friend from Canada who has just moved to Australia the other day who outlined the exact same issues you just presented.

 

[Topkent]

I was talking to a friend from Canada who has just moved to Australia the other day who outlined the exact same issues you just presented.

Yep I always mention how the Australian aboriginals would kill for the benefits the Canadian ones receive and yet it hasn't solved a ******* thing.

 

[PerfectFooty]

Hey mods, when's POTY?

 

[LeverPuller]

2018.

 

[Proper Gander]

What's everyone doing today?

I'm at work. Nobody is here. Most people have taken leave - so all the stuff I had planned on getting to during the quiet period is sort of stalled as requires input from other areas and all I get from emails is out of office messages.

God I'm bored. Maybe I will work out how to use a label-maker and put nametags on everyone's stapler.

 

[Topkent]

What's everyone doing today?

I'm at work. Nobody is here. Most people have taken leave - so all the stuff I had planned on getting to during the quiet period is sort of stalled as requires input from other areas and all I get from emails is out of office messages.

God I'm bored. Maybe I will work out how to use a label-maker and put nametags on everyone's stapler.

I'm currently managing a work at home job that really requires so little effort I can afford to play PS4 all the time.