Bradesmaen
TheBrownDog
Beams don't melt. They char. Seriously the conspiracy theorists are so easy to spot. They have absolutely no idea what they are actually talking about.Jet fuel can't melt 800 year old oak beams.
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Beams don't melt. They char. Seriously the conspiracy theorists are so easy to spot. They have absolutely no idea what they are actually talking about.Jet fuel can't melt 800 year old oak beams.
Lol you tried, JeanLucGoddardBeams don't melt. They char. Seriously the conspiracy theorists are so easy to spot. They have absolutely no idea what they are actually talking about.
Oh, btw, Surah 65:4 implies that marriages for those who have not reached puberty are still ok(A). And, of course,(B) Surah 9:29 would be used by people like the Sri Lankan suicide bombers to justify killing hundreds of people in the name of Allah. Hadith or not, the result is the same.
You are arguing for a very, very small minority position within Islam. Sunni and Shia both use hadith, and see Quranists as a heretical sect because certain passages of the Quran need the hadith in order to make sense.
Surah 4:65 says that Muslims should submit to Muhammad's decisions. Surah 4:80 says that whoever obeys Muhammad, obey Allah. Surah 33:21 says that Muhammad is the pattern of conduct for believers. Guess what? None of these is possible without the hadith, which are the record of Muhammad's decisions and conduct.
Even the Five Pillars of Islam fall apart without the hadith.
I think you're wasting your breath. You can't debate with a protoctist.Are you being deliberately obtuse? Do you think that Muslims are likely to take Muhammad's marriage to Aisha as a pattern of conduct to follow or not?
This sort of Islam is the exact variety that is coming to our shores. The funny thing is that lefties are too dumb to realise that this goes against every single core belief they have.https://www.smh.com.au/world/middle...s-displays-executed-body-20190424-p51gnz.html
So these guys are our allies, and are totally not a terrorist state .... ok
Smart people. See what countries can achieve when they don't have LWNJs weighing them down.Sri Lanka calls for deportation of Islamic clerics.
http://www.dailymirror.lk/breaking_...00-foreign-Islamic-clerics:-Patali/108-166212
Wait, so the Leader of the Pack died at the Shangri-La?
This theory is so common that if you type 'muhammad aisha amenorrhea' into Google, this thread is the 9th result.Lol Aisha having amenorrhea is quite a justification for Muhammad's alleged pederasty. If only Pell could have used that defence.
Probably common among Islamists.This theory is so common that if you type 'muhammad aisha amenorrhea' into Google, this thread is the 9th result.
I doubt it. They just marry the 9 yr old anyway taking the other interpretation. Even most apologists realize it sounds ridiculous!Probably common among Islamists.
The notion that hadith are needed to explain Quran is not supported by the Quran itself.
006:114
"Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than God? - when He is the One who has sent to you the Book, explained in detail (Arabic: Mufassalan)." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it has been sent down from your Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt"
012:111
"In their histories there is certainly a lesson for men of understanding. It is not a narrative which could be forged, but a verification of what is before it and a detailed explanation (Arabic: watafsila) and a guide and a mercy to a people who believe"
007.052
"For We had certainly sent to them a Book based on knowledge, which We explained in detail (Arabic: fasalnahu), a guide and a mercy to all who believe"
What the Quran says about using other sources:
007:185
"Do they see nothing in the government of the heavens and the earth and all that God has created? (Do they not see) that it may well be that their terms are drawing to an end? In what HADITH after this will they then believe?"
014:027
"God will establish in strength those who believe, with the word that stands firm (Arabic: bil-qawlithabiti), in this world and in the Hereafter; but God will leave, to stray, those who do wrong: God does what He wills"
016:104-5
"Indeed, (As for) those who do not believe in God's verses (Arabic: biayati), surely God will not guide them, and they shall have a painful punishment. Only they invent falsehood who do not believe in the verses of God (Arabic: biayatAllahi), and these are the liars"
031:006-7
"But there are, among men, those who purchase frivolous HADITH (Arabic: Hadithi), without knowledge (or meaning), to mislead from the Path of God and throw ridicule (on the Path): for such there will be a Humiliating Penalty. When Our verses (Arabic: Ayatuna) are recited to such a one, he turns away in arrogance, as if he heard them not, as if there were deafness in both his ears: announce to him a grievous Penalty"
039:023
"God has revealed the best HADITH (Arabic: Hadithi) in the form of a Book, consistent with itself, (yet) repeating (its teaching in various aspects): the skins of those who fear their Lord tremble at it; then their skins and their hearts do soften to the celebration of God's praises. Such is the guidance of God: He guides with it whom He pleases, but such as God leaves to stray, can have none to guide"
045:006
"These are verses of God (Arabic: ayat-ullah) that We recite to you with truth. Then, in what HADITH (Arabic word: Hadithin) after God and His verses (Arabic: Ayati) do they believe?"
068:036-38
"What is wrong with you, how do you judge? Or do you have another book which you study? In it, you can find what you wish?"
077:050
"Then In what Hadith (Arabic Word: Hadithin), after this will they believe?"
The Quran categorically denies the need for a source other than Quran for mankind’s guidance.
The Quran does indeed repeatedly announces obedience to the messenger. The 'message' remained connected to the 'messenger' and it was in this capacity of the 'messenger' that Muhammad needed to be obeyed.
The Quran never demanded obedience to 'Muhammad' in his personal preferences and choices. In fact, a stark warning was given to Prophet Muhammad if he so much as introduced any personal preferences in the matter of God's ordained religious system:
066:001
“O Prophet! Why do you ban that which God has made lawful for you, seeking to please thy wives? And God is Forgiving, Merciful”
069:044-48
“And if the messenger were to invent any sayings in Our name, We should certainly seize him by his right hand, And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart: Nor could any of you withhold him (from Our wrath). But verily this is a Message for the God-fearing”
024:054
"Say: "Obey God, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message)"
This is again repeated in 64:12 and can be seen in 5:92. His duty was to convey the message and act on its guidance and his followers are to 'Obey the messenger' in the message that he brought.
What was the message if not the Quran? Obeying the messenger meant obedience to his authority who dealt with matters in light of the Quran. Others in authority were also expected to be obeyed in much the same way the Prophet was asked to be obeyed:
004.059
"O ye who believe! Obey God, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. Then if you disagree in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Messenger, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination"
As the messenger is not alive today, he cannot judge between disputes nor can he exercise his authority in light of the Quran. Therefore, this task falls on those in authority who are responsible for addressing their community matters in light of the Quran.
I am aware of the argument that the hadith are necessary because for instance the Quran doesn’t detail the current ritualized form of prayers that muslims perform today.
The Quran provides guidance to certain parameters which must be followed such as the need for ablution (4:43, 5:6), qibla (2.143-44), allusion of times, tone (17:110), lead (4:102), basic form such as a standing position (3:39; 4:102), bowing down and prostration (4:102; 22:26; 38:24; 48:29) et al, and as long as these are adhered to, the prayer from a Quran's perspective is complete. Purpose over form. Not to mention the majority of hadith were collected about two centuries after the messenger’s death, which begs the question of how muslims prayed in the absence of hadith all that time, especially considering Islam had spread far and wide during this time? It’s almost as if the practice would have been passed down from generation to generation and the hadith were unnecessary to perform prayers.
Likewise with other pillars, none “fall apart” in the absence of hadith if you properly study the Quranic text.
A) I respectfully disagree. Look up and familiarize yourself with the medical condition “Amenorrhea” where despite the age, females are physically unable to menstruate. To state that passage condones child marriage is not supported by the Quran. What does the scripture actually say about marriageable age?
004:006
“Test (trial) the orphans (Arabic: wa-ibtalu l-yatama) until they reach the age of marriage (Arabic: balaghu l-nikaha); if you then find sound judgment in them, release their property to them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their growing up. If the guardian is well-off, let him claim no remuneration, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable. When you release their property to them, take witnesses in their presence (Arabic: Fa-ashiddu alayhim) : But all-sufficient is God in taking account.”
So, marriageable age is reached when their wealth and property can be entrusted to them and they are of sound judgment and maturity, which clearly cannot be a six-year old or a pre-pubescent child.
Further to the above, it is stated not to go near an orphan’s wealth until they are “ashudd” which indicates full strength and maturity:
006:152
"And do not go near to the wealth / property of the orphans except with that which is best until he reaches his maturity / his full strength (Arabic: Ashuddahu)..."
Definition of ‘ashudd” :
"Full physical and mental capacity. The notion of maturity ( ashudd, rushd)has reference to a person who has attained complete natural development, who is fully grown and capable of assuming the responsible management of his or her own affairs."
https://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/encyclopaedia-of-the-quran/maturity-EQCOM_00115
Also:
004:021
“And how could ye take it when you have gone in to each other, and they have taken from you a solemn covenant (Arabic: Meethaqan Galezaan)?"
Marriage is described as a solemn covenant. Let’s see where else Quran uses this term:
THE SOLEMN COVENANT GOD TOOK WITH ALL HIS PROPHETS
033:007
“And remember We took from the prophets their covenant: As (We did) from thee: from Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary: We took from them a solemn covenant (Arabic: Meethaqan Galezaan)”
THE SOLEMN COVENANT GOD TOOK WITH THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL WITH REGARDS THE SABBATH
004:154
“And for their covenant we raised over them the mount; and (on another occasion) we said: "Enter the gate with humility"; and (once again) we commanded them: "Transgress not in the matter of the Sabbath." And we took from them a solemn covenant (Arabic: Meethaqan Galezaan)”
It seems absurd to suggest that a child could enter such an arrangement. The notion that the Quran supports child marriages is totally unsupported by the text itself and hadith which claim Mohammad did such a thing can be safely discarded as having no factual basis.
B)
“And, of course, Surah 9:29 would be used by people like the Sri Lankan suicide bombers to justify killing hundreds of people in the name of Allah. “
There is nothing in the Quran which justified mass indiscriminate killings such as those. The verse you quote refers to those who broke peace treaties at a time when followers of Islam were under mortal danger and had to flee their homes under threat of harm and violence.
Directives regarding warfare in the Quran:
022:039-040
“Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely God is well able to assist them; Those who have been expelled from their homes without a just cause except that they say: Our Lord is God. And had there not been God's repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and Churches and Synagogues and Mosques in which God's name is much remembered; and surely God will help him who helps His cause; most surely God is Strong, Mighty”
060:008
“God does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely God loves the doers of justice”
008:061
"And if they incline to peace, then you also incline to it and trust in God; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing"
Quran 2:190-194
"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors" And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
Probably common among Islamists.
One of my favourite bits - the Jews plotted and planned, but Allah is the master of all plotters!Allah wouldn't mind being called a deceiver (makr), given he calls himself the best deceiver in Surah 3:54
It helps if they're integrating into Western society and are actually challenged on Islam.I doubt it, they would have no reason to make such a ridiculous reach when they can just follow the actions of their prophet.
On this, it bothers me when Muslims happily argue that Jesus was a Muslim. It's just such a stupidly ahistorical claim that it makes them sound dense. How can Jesus be something which pre-dated its creation? Absurd.Allah wouldn't mind being called a deceiver (makr), given he calls himself the best deceiver in Surah 3:54. Of course, many Muslim scholars find this untenable as well, so they change it to "planner", but it undoubtedly deceptive to make it appear as though Jesus was crucified when he wasn't, as that passage claims Allah did, in a game of oneupsmanship with the Jews. They schemed, and he schemed better - according to the Quran.
Pre-Islamic polytheist faith iircwasn't Muhammad a Jew, anyway?
Seemed to have a relatively intimate knowledge of Judaism/Christianity to have written the Qu'ran.Pre-Islamic polytheist faith iirc
They were basically the only books going. I reckon you would if there was nothing else to do.Seemed to have a relatively intimate knowledge of Judaism/Christianity to have written the Qu'ran.
I wouldn't be able to do the same for Islam.