Analysis Attacking ability

[TigerImposter]

So if we had it your way we would be playing only the kids.
Worked out well for gws didn't it?

Oh wait, it will be different. We only play then kids who have gone past the duds. But they haven't? If you watched multiple VFL games this year you would realise that the kids we delisted would get killed in the afl. They were not up to standard like many at other clubs who also got delisted.

You are presenting your il informed opinion as fact.
The duds in the side are better than the kids we got rid of. Fact.

No that's your ill formed opinion
I recall Arnott playing in the FP when he played
oH got almost more possessions in a quarter than Newy averaged in a whole game
I didn't mention to play a team full of kids as we have a top 16 who aRe a walk up start Where did this ridiculous Gws analogy come from??
You've missed the point of the OP in defence of the list cloggers. That being We need to replace the players that lack or don't have the ability to play attacking football

 

[TigerImposter]

So if we had it your way we would be playing only the kids.
Worked out well for gws didn't it?

Oh wait, it will be different. We only play then kids who have gone past the duds. But they haven't? If you watched multiple VFL games this year you would realise that the kids we delisted would get killed in the afl. They were not up to standard like many at other clubs who also got delisted.

You are presenting your il informed opinion as fact.
The duds in the side are better than the kids we got rid of. Fact.

So Nort replaced their whole team with 18 yr old rookieslmao

 

[TigersMan4]

No that's your ill formed opinion
I recall Arnott playing in the FP when he played
oH got almost more possessions in a quarter than Newy averaged in a whole game
I didn't mention to play a team full of kids as we have a top 16 who aRe a walk up start Where did this ridiculous Gws analogy come from??
You've missed the point of the OP in defence of the list cloggers. That being We need to replace the players that lack or don't have the ability to play attacking football

Arnott, as much as I love the way he attacks the ball, did nothing in the forward pocket. oH had more possions playing a different role to old. Man Newman.

Apples to oranges.

 

[TigerImposter]

Arnott, as much as I love the way he attacks the ball, did nothing in the forward pocket. oH had more possions playing a different role to old. Man Newman.

Apples to oranges.

What role is exactly old man Newmans ?
I heard it was a spare runner

Arnot did nothing in the FP bc that's not his position. Obvious

 

[Rumballs]

Soooooooooooooooooooo have I ,and I
Don't doubt you ,but they are beeeeettttttttttttteeeeeeeeeer than Neeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwweeeeeeeeeey

You rate everyone ahead of Newy.
Fair enough.
But when I ask in what way Madonna is better than Newy you say 'every way'
When I call you on the ways Newy is demonstrably better than Madonna you disappear.
Your hyperbole then disappearance significantly weakens your argument.

 

[TigerImposter]

You rate everyone ahead of Newy.
Fair enough.
But when I ask in what way Madonna is better than Newy you say 'every way'
When I call you on the ways Newy is demonstrably better than Madonna you disappear.
Your hyperbole then disappearance significantly weakens your argument.

We all know he's better than Newman in all facets if the game
Shying from it is just failing to accept the reality that eventually all men whether great or common will eventually get old
Good to see you around again with all those funny Gifs

 

[Rumballs]

We all know he's better than Newman in all facets if the game
Shying from it is just failing to accept the reality that eventually all men whether great or common will eventually get old
Good to see you around again with all those funny Gifs

It's bad form to troll your own board

 

[TigerImposter]

It's bad form to troll your own board

Explain as I think I've visited just as many threads as you today
Plus have you noticed most of the threads are repetitive
There are at least Three trade ones plus all the DH ones etc
I get confused where I last posted and then people quote me so I have to do the honourable thing and reply

 

[Tigerforlife78]

I just went down to the local 2nd hand store and bought an old army flak helmet to wear for these threads . Seriously though Lloyd was playing captain f***king obvious with that article except for his insight into former teammates. I honestly dont have much to say about our list until after the trade and free agency peroid, weve got some cap space heres to hoping we can get some excellent players with run and goal kicking ability.

 

[theflea]

Lloyd has a long way to go to prove he is worthy of a spot as the small forward. He lacks the pace as well.

Why are we so obsessed with moving Deledio and Martin into full time forwards? We've got the ratio bang on right now. They can both influence the game as midfielders and forwards depending on what we need. Robbie Gray is a far more influential player as a midfielder forward then he ever was a forward, Bomber Thompson spent a season trying to turn Ablett Junior into more of a forward sure he kicked almost 50 goals but his best position is a mid who can get forward, it allows total influence over the game. Next year I hope for lids and Dusty to become 30+ goal kickers while still getting 25+ touches.

The best sides all have at least two game breaking small forwards as well as goal kicking mids. Hawks have Breust and Rioli (and Puopolo), Port have Wingard and now Neade, and Freo have Ballentine and Walters. Sydney have the most diverse forward line with Buddy and Goodes like smaller players in a way but still have McGlynn and sometimes Lloyd at their feet. The small forward is not dead and its not a position that can be filled by a midfielder. We need a genuine one with pace to cause havoc in our forward line.

Yeah I agree, most players need to be able to rotate thru many positions.

 

[theflea]

I agree our attacking method needs changing. We do need speed on the outside, and another genuine inside mid star.

 

[tunksy]

we will improve massively up forward if another tall comes on massively and is able to kick around 45 goals per year and take real pressure of jack. we need one to break out and kick say 6-8 goals so clubs actually pay attention to them not just jack.

 

[leekok]

We won't get it done with at least six blokes that played last week
They need to be backup in the ressies otherwise we will not improve. We stagnated from 15 wins to 12 wins plus a 10 goal flogging eased down by Port

No, maybe not but if some of our other players improve then we'll carry the bottom 6. Every team has them, I beleive the younger players (Which is the majority of the team) can only get better, not worse.

 

[Ralll]

Warning this will be very long. As most of you know I do have a tendency to waffle

I've been considering writing this thread for a few weeks but thought i'd wait till the season was over.

For mine our back line has the basic structures and personnel in place to be one of the best in the league. Rance is the AA full back in my mind, can play tall or small gives it his all and is the best interceptor in the league. With a full line up moving Astbury onto the dominate forward and Rance to more of a Chaplin role will make us even stronger but even without Astbury we were still very good with Rance and Chaplin.

The way we play with a big forward press means that we need pace when the ball gets out, this is why we cannot trade Grimes, he can play small and tall and has the pace to race small forwards back to the open forward line. His marking is improving back to what he was before injury and as he gets games we just need his offensive ability to improve. Batch doesn't have as much pace but provides a really physical presence right now, he has the ability to intercept mark and good kick. He needs to improve a lot but he was very important shut down player in our 9 win run.

Houli provides the drive but has turned into a very good one on one defender, his form has been up and down this year a bit, he looks especially bad in our losses but underrated in our wins.

But for mine that is a very good and very young back 5 to work with. The last two spots need to be filled but Morris, Chaplin and Newman have them right now. But I'd like upgrades. Still this is a side that has proven over the last two years too be a top 4 defence IMO.

If anyone follows the squiggly line thread on the main board that basically backs up that we have been a very good defensive side last two season finishing with a top 4 rated defence.

http://maxbarry.com/squiggle/2014.html#close

Its our attack that for mine is the problem (which is also reflected in the above chart). We do not punish teams enough on the scoreboard and anyone watching the tigers play would agree we seem to struggle for so many of our goals only for opposition to score easy ones against us. I personally think it is reflected in the fact we can get 30+ point leads but opposition side can ground us back because we cannot continue to score heavily. Over the last 3 season we average about 5 more inside 50's a game then our opposition yet we do not score nearly enough.

I've done a very basic break down of the Hawks, Port, Sydney and us for how many goals minimum they can expect next year based on previous few years form.

Hawks
60+
Roughy
45+
Breust and Gunston
30+
Rioli
20+
Puopolo, Hale, Smith, Ceglar/McEvoy and Hodge
15+
Lewis
10+
Hill, Burgoyne, Simpkin, Suckling, Shoenmakers

345 goals minimum next year

Sydney
70+
Franklin
50+
Tippet
25+
Goodes, McGlynn, Jetta
20+
Ried and Parker
15+
Kennedy, Jack, Cunningham, McVeigh
10+
Hannerbery, Lloyd and Rohan

335 goals

Port
50+
Schulz
40+
Wingard
35+
Gray
25+
Neade, Westhoff and White
20+
Harlett and Monfries
15+
Boak, Wines, Polec
10+
Ebert

295 goals

Richmond
60+
Jack
30+
Vickery
25+
Deledio, Martin
20+
Edwards and Gordon
15+
Cotchin and Griffiths
10+
Ellis, Miles and Petterd

240 goals at a push (Miles is probably lucky to make the 10+ goals)

We need to find away to get more goals from our forward line and get easier goals if we want to compete with the top teams.

Deledio and Martin could very well push into that 30+ bracket and Vickery into 40+ if he has a good season but we still need to find more goals.

I'm very big advocate for Jeff Garlett as he has performed at this level with three 40 goals season and can lay lots of tackles. Using a three tall forward line of Ty, Griff and Jack and him at their feet as 4 permeant forwards gives us a very flexible and different forward line especially if you can have the 3 talls put on enough forward pressure. I really believe they can as i've seen it from all of them its just about doing it all the time instead of some of the time.

Garlett needs to be making like difficult for teams rebounding, Port did it too easy in the Elim Final but at our best opposition run into a brick wall know as Rance and hurried kicks usually find our players who then bomb it to the top of the square where we rarely have crumbers, Garlett could thrive like that.

Martin and Cotch can both go to the goal square with Vickery who is very good at providing blocks when we clear the forward line out. Also Griff can set up outside 50 when we are locked in forward 50 and Vickery can do the rucking. This gives us another big marking player in our wall outside 50 and Griff could kick goals from 60 out quite easily.

If we don't get Garlett then someone has to come in, I like Gordon but not sure either can play the role we need. Long term if he makes it i see him more as an offensive version of Ellis. Lloyd is a level above VFL but that doesn't mean its AFL level, he can kick goals sometimes when he plays but really lacks the pace to put on enough pressure (not just tackling) and can drift out of the game easily.

Crozier is somebody who has been mentioned as a player we are interested in and i think he could be great pick up. Has electric pace and very good overhead. But is more a medium forward then a small one, still could be very handy in our attack, not yet 21 and proven ability to kick multiple goals. But if we get him I see him as taking Griggs place then being in out forward line

The draft offers up some interesting players too, Ahern would be great out our first pick, beautiful vision and creativity inside 50 but would take a while to make the jump from 18's to AFL IMO. Lavarde is more a tall quick wingman, but maybe becomes that WHE type. Smith at our 2nd pick could come in and be a terrier straight away in the forward line but a bit off kicking 30+ goals a season.

We do have McDonough and Lennon waiting in the wings. Both very crafty forwards at 18's level. Lennon IMO will start at HB for us and become a gun quarter back type before following a Deledio progression of midfield and forward, cleanest hands at ground level i've ever seen at VFL and u18's level but has looked a fair bit off AFL level if we are being honest. McDonough has been moved forward at VFL level as I think the club realised we need more goals, great set shot, strong overhead and very clever. But we need him to drop a few kegs and find a little more pace. Plus we have to hope he isn't going home to Adelaide. I really hope we continue to push his midfield time as he is brilliant around stoppages and could a Robbie Gray type player.

How do you guys think we can improve our attack? Am I over rating our defence and midfield?

2014
We avg 50 I50's Ranked 9th, for 23.3 scoring shots ranked 12th
We played 2 talls going to 1on1s mostly with Lids/Martin/Cotch spending more time forward.

2013
We avg 52 I50's Ranked 8th, for 27.2 scoring shots ranked 3rd
We played 3 talls and kicked mostly to the hotspot with King/Edwards types roving.

The data certainly agrees with you OP.

The problem with trying to be more deliberate going i50 is the organization thats required to time leads and create space, as well as the i50 kick needing to be more precise, hitting targets on the lead or kicking to advantage.
This season we had some terrible I50 conversion with a more open forward line and 2 talls, although we did get better at it as the season went on...well until the final anyway.

It will be interesting to see what we do next season with Vickery and the Bean knocking on the door.

 

[Sultan]

What is Cotchin like 1 one 1 inside 50?

I noticed this year he was kicking at just under a goal a game, which is an increase on 2013 when he barely kicked anything all year.

 

[Calcium Man]

What is Cotchin like 1 one 1 inside 50?

I noticed this year he was kicking at just under a goal a game, which is an increase on 2013 when he barely kicked anything all year.

2013 was an aberration, he normally kicks about 20 goals a year.

He is very good one on one player in general. Very good overhead and gets a lot of frees because players hold onto him. Not as strong as Dusty but just as good at holding his ground which is why he is so dangerous.

 

[Calcium Man]

_RT_ looks like you were right about moving lids forward and I was right about Dusty staying mid and resting forward.

We still have the same attacking issues only now we've flipped from smalls being the issue to talls. The worst thing is we only need to be a team that scores 80+ points and we win

 

[TigerImposter]

Hilarious that our kids were being talked up three years ago.
The reality is we are caught up in a never ending loop of mediocrity. We will be short of HBF in two years time.

 

[captain blood 17]

Reality is lacking a 2nd key forward is now starting to bite us in the arse as teams are now working out how to best combat our midget fleet. We now need to come up with plan b. Otherwise our second half of the season may become very stressful.

 

[HTT]

Somewhat agree the lack of a second tall is probably contributing to our inability to score heavily for more then a quarter. As the saying goes, the little blokes get tires but the big blokes don't get any smaller. As for our actual game plan's scoring ability, I think it works fine - but only when it works IYKWIM

 

[mopsy]

It has been very obvious not just this yr but for many yrs now the need for a consistent competitive second tall fwd who can kick goals crash packs and not be a total liability in defensive aspects of the game. A player who has the basic commodity of high work rate and is team first.

The other thing that is smacking us all in the face is the need for a decent second ruck/fwd.I have always believed this player should be able to command a spot in the team by being a good enough ruckman ie David Hale for the level, so he spends significant time in the ruck but be competetive when fwd.

Or the player be good enough to play mostly fwd kick you goals and compete consistently as a fwd.But be able to spend a small amount of time each quarter to give the ruckman a chop out and be at a decent enough ruck level that he can hold his own or not get killed if the #1 ruck gets injured. The type would be say a Jenkins OR Ben Brown.

I still think a set up like the following is the way to go and has always been the way to go when you look at successful teams over the yrs.And i will throw in a few blokes who are not stars of the game

Small fwd - Waite - Brown
Small fwd - Riewoldt - Small Fwd

I also like what Adelaide do, where they have the two big fwds Walker and Jenkins and play one ruck Jacobs but they have two third tall types one a running machine in Lynch and the other a genuine aerial threat in McGovern.
This allows them to change structure through a game stay mobile and maintain a fair aerial presence without losing fwd pressure.They change when Jenkins goes ruck and small blokes like knight and Milera rotate thru there.

Betts - Jenkins - McGovern
Lynch - Walker - Cameron

I think in the past we have had too many players or fwds who were totally lacking in some areas but were okay in others, fwd pressure v scoring power and ability to stay in the game and also be flexible.

Truth is we need to be good in all these things not have players who only do well in one part of the equation. In this way we have to be actively looking to change.
You need enough size and height at the same time you need enough speed and pressure and we need players who do both sides of that equation well enough.
At the end of the day Thats why they are AFL players, there are thousands of blokes out there who excel at one thing and never get an afl gig because they have too many deficiencies for this level. Most afl players do most things well and may have one ore two weakness, in a funny way we are picking blokes who are good in one or two areas of each spectrum but dont do well enough in either.

Imo we have gone to the other extreme where we have found some fwd pressure with certain types that leaves us struggling in other areas.
Question im asking is can we and should we be able to get that same pressure and a better balance with other types, to me the answer to that has to be yes. , flexability simply finding enough ball competing well in the air and on the ground staying in games work rate hitting up tackling chase its a prerequisite for all the players.

Imo we still search for the right balance right across the board imo.
We can all see the current structure can take us so far and enable us to be competetive but it wont take us all the way and at some stage we will need to change.

Anyway long winded post again sorry for that just my thoughts on it though.

 

[Elton Johns Wig]

Hilarious that our kids were being talked up three years ago.
The reality is we are caught up in a never ending loop of mediocrity. We will be short of HBF in two years time.

No, because that's where the mids we recruit end up, hello Brando